Selecting Need for your companion

[Lostpenguins]

I ran into this the other day running through a flash point.

 

I selected Need for my companion. Someone got really mad at me for doing that.

I explained that I use my companion 90% of the time outside of groups and one way of getting decent gear is through flashpoints. Getting gear through questing is only ok gear. I am not about to buy gear all the time. I have a sorc and my companion is a tank. I use my tank a lot.

 

Am I wrong on selected Need for my companion?

 

I would like to get peoples opinion on this since this game I think is a little different then other games since we have companions.

 

My argument is since I use my companion 90% soloing, I feel as my companion and me are treated as 1.

 

Yes, you are wrong. It doesn't matter that you use that companion to solo. You took something away from someone's main character, something they bring with them 100% to everything they do. Your companion can't join raids or warzones. And they soon won't be able to join Ilum PvP. Even though you feel you and your companoin "are treated as 1", your companion wasn't there to help and it still is your pet, not your actual toon.

 

Taking something for a companion should be below mains, and arguably above alts.

 

It really should go:

Main

Main Off Spec

Companions

Alts

 

Edit: A good note to look at is how loot in Operations is auto-distributed. It doesn't even let me take a BH item (I'm a Marauder) Just because I have a BH-based pet. Figure that into the equation that BW doesn't factor you companions into operations loot.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Lostpenguins

[defenestrated]

Debatable. Your companion increases the damage/defense/healing output, as a tool or part of your gear/equipment. Therefore, rolling need for your companion could be rolling need for an expansion of your gear, that if your companion participated in the kill/fight.

It's not an extension of you for difficult content - most heroics, flashpoints, etc. Real players trump companions. If companions were always active and usable even in a full group, that argument would hold more weight.

[Eldren]

Fine then - prove it. Prove that you can't get to level 50 without gearing your companion through flashpoints. I mean, that's what you actually need your companion for, right?

 

I, on the other hand, can prove you wrong - as I'm level 49 and have never placed a single piece of flashpoint gear on any companion. I've been gearing all 5 of my companions through random questing drops and rewards the entire game and have had NO issues soloing content that is meant to be soloed.

 

Thus - you do not actually need to roll need on companion gear when in a group.

 

The point isn't whether you need FP gear for your companion, the point is whether you can have FP gear for your companion (and the answer is "yes").

 

Likewise, you can actually get from 1-50 on your main character with nothing but quest rewards. You can even do fine in FPs while wearing that gear. You don't need group-content gear til 50th level when you're going to want HM FP gear to go into Ops. So using your logic, since your character doesn't "need" FP gear to get to 50, they should at no point roll Need on it when the option arises.

 

I don't know about you, but I would consider that option absurd. That's why it's called reductio ad absurdum in debate circles: it's a logical fallacy, in this case designed to point out the actual absurdity of your position.

 

Since neither PCs or their companions thus "need" FP gear to play the game to its level cap, it all boils down to whether they want FP gear. Since they do, acquiring gear for both is viable through the same methods.

[Kindara]

I ran into this the other day running through a flash point.

 

I selected Need for my companion. Someone got really mad at me for doing that.

I explained that I use my companion 90% of the time outside of groups and one way of getting decent gear is through flashpoints. Getting gear through questing is only ok gear. I am not about to buy gear all the time. I have a sorc and my companion is a tank. I use my tank a lot.

 

Am I wrong on selected Need for my companion?

 

I would like to get peoples opinion on this since this game I think is a little different then other games since we have companions.

 

My argument is since I use my companion 90% soloing, I feel as my companion and me are treated as 1.

 

Companion needing vs Player needing = Your Not Getting a Group with me or My Guild ever again. Look Companions are Important but NOT that important. If no one else wants it or needs it Ask then Need it. You won't win this argument. Companion Needers are as low as Ninjas.

[EternalFinality]

The point isn't whether you need FP gear for your companion, the point is whether you can have FP gear for your companion (and the answer is "yes").

 

No, that isn't the point at all. You *can* roll need on everything, but *should* you? That is the question. *Should* you roll need on companion gear over other players?

 

I'll let you decide. (But the answer is no)

 

Likewise, you can actually get from 1-50 on your main character with nothing but quest rewards. You can even do fine in FPs while wearing that gear. You don't need group-content gear til 50th level when you're going to want HM FP gear to go into Ops. So using your logic, since your character doesn't "need" FP gear to get to 50, they should at no point roll Need on it when the option arises.

 

If you were strictly soloing, you're right - you really don't need it. But flashpoints are harder than solo content. Operations are MUCH more harder than solo content. So yes, practically, you do need it for those.

 

I don't know about you, but I would consider that option absurd. That's why it's called reductio ad absurdum in debate circles: it's a logical fallacy, in this case designed to point out the actual absurdity of your position.

 

What's absurd is thinking you're more important than other people in the group. Which you have professed to.

[IBJammin]

Upgrades specifically for your companion come up extremely often during questing (I'm talking 2 entire sets by the time y ou finish a planet. In addtion there is plenty of gear on the commendation merchants that can be used to upgrade equipment and you'll have plenty of extra commendations.

 

Personally if someone needs on an item for their companion they go on my ignore list so I don't group with them again. Unless they either wait to make sure no one needs or ask if it's ok.

 

The upgrades for the companions are not nearly as nice as some of the specialty gear out there.

 

Additional $.02 Not directed at loudent.

 

If you're with a new group you should discuss it. Otherwise it's not anyone's fault if anyone makes assumptions about how it's done. To kick someone without laying down some guidelines first is circumspect. I ask when I don't know.

[Shadowkai]

People that need for companions are simply greedy, and no amount of rationlization or defense changes that.

 

Under the "I NEED it because my companion is part of my character" rationale, everyone should pretty much NEED everything. I have mutiple companions, all with different gear needs! I NEED lightsabers, blasters, light armor, medium armor, heavy armor... Right?

 

Lame.

 

The best thing to do is discuss need/greed rules with a group before running anything. If someone is going to need items for companions, I simply thank them for their time, drop group, and move on.

[diamount]

Good thing with trooper companions I can simply give them my own gear that I've upgraded, but really just say you're needing on the item for your companion if everyone else greeds or it's not an upgrade for someone.

[Eldren]

No, that isn't the point at all. You *can* roll need on everything, but *should* you? That is the question. *Should* you roll need on companion gear over other players?

 

I'll let you decide. (But the answer is no)

 

 

 

If you were strictly soloing, you're right - you really don't need it. But flashpoints are harder than solo content. Operations are MUCH more harder than solo content. So yes, practically, you do need it for those.

 

 

 

What's absurd is thinking you're more important than other people in the group. Which you have professed to.

 

If you truly believe no person in the group is no more important than anyone else (and they aren't), then you'd logically always step back if someone of the same class as you wanted a piece of gear, right? You wouldn't roll, because you'd be placing your needs above theirs. But you don't do that: if a piece drops that you want, you roll Need on it. That's what's intended, which is why we have an impartial system for loot distribution.

 

You're attempting to use terms like "should", which is an attempted appeal to a morality that in this game doesn't exist. There's no formally codified moral absolute in this game, only intermingling individual moralities and goals. If you're fine with a player rolling for a piece of gear for themselves, it makes no difference if they're going to put it on their companion: it's still for themselves.

 

You can't have it both ways. So which is it for you?

[Notsensible]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, the game only drops gear pertaining to what is optimal for the players that are doing the flashpoint. I've yet to see any medium BoP gear drop when I run them with my 2 rl friends, despite using a medium armor companion to fill the 4th.

 

That being said, the game doesn't seem to count the companion as a true member of the group, hence no gear will drop specifically for the companion. IMO, that's reason enough to consider gearing the companion up as only secondary to your fellow group members in priority.

[Lostpenguins]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, the game only drops gear pertaining to what is optimal for the players that are doing the flashpoint. I've yet to see any medium BoP gear drop when I run them with my 2 rl friends, despite using a medium armor companion to fill the 4th.

 

That is wrong. I've done instances with a Sith Jugg, a sorc, an assassin, and a marauder and I've seen dozens of items drop that were for BH's or operatives.

 

In fact, my companion, Quinn, now has the Columni CP because the token for operatives dropped and we didn't have one in the group. So I asked if I could roll need since I use Quinn more than anyone else uses their companion that is an IA.

[Shadowkai]

if a piece drops that you want, you roll Need on it.

 

False. If a piece drops that I WANT, I roll GREED. If it is an upgrade for my character (not my companion), I will roll NEED.

 

Heck, under your rationalization (and it is just that, rationalizing for ninja'ing), I might as well roll need for my guildmates/friends too, as they level and PvP with me, and that helps MY performance.

 

Cool. This is a whole new world of need/greed (or as it's now known to some, need/need).

[pseaton]

Companion needing vs Player needing = Your Not Getting a Group with me or My Guild ever again. Look Companions are Important but NOT that important. If no one else wants it or needs it Ask then Need it. You won't win this argument. Companion Needers are as low as Ninjas.

 

 

Companions are just as important for leveling. If not then don't use your companion for anything except crafting. Lets see how far you get.

[profaneascension]

An argument used often by those who feel that their companions are equally entitled to gear in a full Flashpoint group is that they're with their companions 99% of the time, and therefore are an extension of their character. But to me, the fallacy in this argument lies in that they are participating strictly in a group environment; in no way did the companion contribute to the fight. In my eyes it is only logical and fair that the characters who actually participated in the encounters should have priority over any element which did not factor into the battle.

 

Those same players will counter with the argument that their companions helped them get there, and therefore they should be entitled to an equal share of the loot. By that measure, should anyone who has helped that player's character in the past also be entitled to gear? After all, they also had a hand in getting that player to the point of being able to participate in the Flashpoint. I spend 99% of my time leveling with my girlfriend; should she be entitled to the gear or the proceeds from the sale of which as well, even if she wasn't part of the group? I consider her to be an emotional extension of me, and an invaluable grouping partner. Are you going to tell me that she isn't more deserving of gear than my AI companion? Are you going to tell me that questing as a duo with her is not part of the game's mechanics, like grouping with companions?

 

Do you see the problem? The definition of "need" is so broad and overarching that, over the course of many generations of MMOs, the community has come to agree upon a standardize set of loot rules, however loose they may be. These are not "hardcore MMO gamer" rules by any means; they are but children of common sense.

 

Regardless of whatever set of rules by which a player chooses to abide, the fairest and most clear-cut definition of Need should be restricted to the need of the characters present in the group. To dispute that is to open the floodgates to a myriad of claims of rights from other sources.

 

I have yet to see anyone refute these points, apart from those who, I assume, have no recourse but to resort to accusations of my being "too hardcore" or statements like "it's only a game." It's not just a game; it's an online community of living, breathing individuals, and when you elect to join a community (such as accepting an invitation into a group), you should make every effort to act in accordance to their standards. It's called common courtesy.

[EternalFinality]

If you truly believe no person in the group is no more important than anyone else (and they aren't), then you'd logically always step back if someone of the same class as you wanted a piece of gear, right? You wouldn't roll, because you'd be placing your needs above theirs. But you don't do that: if a piece drops that you want, you roll Need on it. That's what's intended, which is why we have an impartial system for loot distribution.

 

This makes no sense whatsoever. You're a team. I think I am of equal importance, and thus if my character needs an item I will roll need for it. If my character doesn't need an item (and it's either an upgrade for a companion or I just want to sell it for money) I roll greed on it - indicating I still WANT it but I don't NEED it. That's why there are three buttons in the system - I need, I want, and I do not want.

 

You don't have to be selfless in order to not be selfish.

 

You're attempting to use terms like "should", which is an attempted appeal to a morality that in this game doesn't exist. There's no formally codified moral absolute in this game, only intermingling individual moralities and goals. If you're fine with a player rolling for a piece of gear for themselves, it makes no difference if they're going to put it on their companion: it's still for themselves.

 

You can't have it both ways. So which is it for you?

 

The morality clearly exists and has existed for a decade of MMOs.

 

Morality is all about the views of the majority on any issue. This isn't exactly new information, you know?

 

If you steal something from a store you're in the wrong. While there are many reasons for this, what it boils down to is society has decided such an action is wrong.

 

If you need or ninja loot for your companions (without getting agreement from the group) you're in the wrong. There are many reasons for this, what it boils down to is society has decided such an action is wrong.

 

Ignore society at your own peril.

[Xenich]

Companions are an extension of your character, so if you need to enhance your game play ability by upping the ability of your companion - go for it.

 

What are you grouping for anyway? for the chance to get better gear to enhance your gameplay/character, and i know that if my companion is top notch it makes things a lot easier for me to get through harder content alone.

 

Each person has an equal chance at the roll - that's the fair part, if you lose the roll, line up again and have another go like every other mmo.

 

if i need it, i need it - if i don't i pass

 

 

You aren't enhancing your group contribution by doing so. All you are doing is enhancing your solo ability to which the group could care less about. The group does not join together so they can outfit your solo play, they do so in order to outfit their characters abilities to which is the only contribution in a full group. It is a invalid argument to use "character ability" as a justification when in fact that ability is never seen in a full group experience. You making your companion stronger will not help the group in that dungeon in any way shape or form, hence only players present rolling need on needed items being the issue.

 

It is simple logic and there is no justifying the position you make unless your companion is a component within that group, to which most here are not arguing as the issue is a full group of players rolling need over another player so they can outfit their companion to which offers nothing to the group.

[ThiborF]

and god I wish MMOs would somehow mark players who always roll need on items they can't use so I don't have to group with them and not find out until it's too late.

 

Fine with that.

How about we mark every single person who joins a PuG and doesn't discuss loot rules before the run and then comes here and complains about how things didn't go there way as a lazy, whiny, b**** ?

 

If you ASSUME and don't say a word, you get what you ask for. Period.

If you discuss it briefly and everyone agrees, there should never be an issue UNLESS you have a true thief/ninja in the group.

 

The developers of these games give you a tool called a chat window folks.

Learn to use it.

[SingleCoilPickup]

This makes no sense whatsoever. You're a team. I think I am of equal importance, and thus if my character needs an item I will roll need for it. If my character doesn't need an item (and it's either an upgrade for a companion or I just want to sell it for money) I roll greed on it - indicating I still WANT it but I don't NEED it. That's why there are three buttons in the system - I need, I want, and I do not want.

 

You don't have to be selfless in order to not be selfish.

 

 

 

The morality clearly exists and has existed for a decade of MMOs.

 

Morality is all about the views of the majority on any issue. This isn't exactly new information, you know?

 

If you steal something from a store you're in the wrong. While there are many reasons for this, what it boils down to is society has decided such an action is wrong.

 

If you need or ninja loot for your companions (without getting agreement from the group) you're in the wrong. There are many reasons for this, what it boils down to is society has decided such an action is wrong.

 

Ignore society at your own peril.

 

 

But rolling Need for yourself isn't being selfless even if it's for your primary character. When you roll need you're thinking of yourself and your objectives. And there's nothing wrong with that. We all need gear, and since we're all trying to get it, there's an impartial rolling system in place for when gear is contested. You can't say you're being "selfless" in any scenario where you're rolling Need against another player.

[Lostpenguins]

Companions are just as important for leveling. If not then don't use your companion for anything except crafting. Lets see how far you get.

 

1) You will never be allowed to use your companion for Operations

2) You will soon not be allowed to use your companions for anything outside of open world pvp outside of Ilum's war area.

3) Taking an item from me in a FP will not increase your performance in an Operation, but it will hurt mine.

4) Bioware does not let you roll on items for your companions that drop in Operations... a sign that they no gear goes to those who are present, not to the companions...

 

You cannot argue that. My toon earned that gear moreso than your companion did. When items drop you will choose gear that's better for you moreso than your companion (I'm guessing here, but I believe it's a safe assumption). If that's the case then you value the equipment on your tune more than you do your companion... think about that.

[scfs]

1) You will never be allowed to use your companion for Operations

2) You will soon not be allowed to use your companions for anything outside of open world pvp outside of Ilum's war area.

3) Taking an item from me in a FP will not increase your performance in an Operation, but it will hurt mine.

4) Bioware does not let you roll on items for your companions that drop in Operations... a sign that they no gear goes to those who are present, not to the companions...

 

You cannot argue that. My toon earned that gear moreso than your companion did. When items drop you will choose gear that's better for you moreso than your companion (I'm guessing here, but I believe it's a safe assumption). If that's the case then you value the equipment on your tune more than you do your companion... think about that.

 

Anyone whos taking companion gear @50 from 50's is doing it wrong.

Most of this is aboot levelling gear though when companions are a vital part of life.

[DarthGrimmlokk]

I ran into this the other day running through a flash point.

 

I selected Need for my companion. Someone got really mad at me for doing that.

I explained that I use my companion 90% of the time outside of groups and one way of getting decent gear is through flashpoints. Getting gear through questing is only ok gear. I am not about to buy gear all the time. I have a sorc and my companion is a tank. I use my tank a lot.

 

Am I wrong on selected Need for my companion?

 

I would like to get peoples opinion on this since this game I think is a little different then other games since we have companions.

 

My argument is since I use my companion 90% soloing, I feel as my companion and me are treated as 1.

 

Did your companion help you run that instance? If the answer is no, then you should not be rolling need for them. I don't care if you can use it later for your companion. The loot in a flashpoint is obtained by the people who are running it and it should go to one of them, not your AI pet. As others have said, there are plenty of other ways to equip up your companion. Heck, just do a couple PvP matches a day and you'll be swimmingin PvP tokens you can use on your companion. When I do most of the quests in a zone I get more zone tokens then I need that I can use on my companion.

 

You should not be rolling need in a flashpoint for your companion!

[Eldren]

An argument used often by those who feel that their companions are equally entitled to gear in a full Flashpoint group is that they're with their companions 99% of the time, and therefore are an extension of their character. But to me, the fallacy in this argument lies in that they are participating strictly in a group environment; in no way did the companion contribute to the fight. In my eyes it is only logical and fair that the characters who actually participated in the encounters should have priority over any element which did not factor into the battle.

 

This argument would only hold water if you were only going to use that gear in Flashpoints or Operations. However, once you have upgrades from FPs, you're going out into the questing world to use them, at which point they become a meaningful impact on non-group content.

 

If we can't agree that companions are part of our characters, then we won't agree on anything else. It's a foundational argument at work here. I believe companions are part of my character, and as a result, require upgrades through as many available paths as my character itself has.

 

The existence of companions in this paradigm largely invalidates the benefits of Need Before Greed, and would be better served by either including companion-specific loot tables with each boss, or moving to a Roll/Pass option.

[Xenich]

An argument used often by those who feel that their companions are equally entitled to gear in a full Flashpoint group is that they're with their companions 99% of the time, and therefore are an extension of their character. But to me, the fallacy in this argument lies in that they are participating strictly in a group environment; in no way did the companion contribute to the fight. In my eyes it is only logical and fair that the characters who actually participated in the encounters should have priority over any element which did not factor into the battle.

 

Those same players will counter with the argument that their companions helped them get there, and therefore they should be entitled to an equal share of the loot. By that measure, should anyone who has helped that player's character in the past also be entitled to gear? After all, they also had a hand in getting that player to the point of being able to participate in the Flashpoint. I spend 99% of my time leveling with my girlfriend; should she be entitled to the gear or the proceeds from the sale of which as well, even if she wasn't part of the group? I consider her to be an emotional extension of me, and an invaluable grouping partner. Are you going to tell me that she isn't more deserving of gear than my AI companion? Are you going to tell me that questing as a duo with her is not part of the game's mechanics, like grouping with companions?

 

Do you see the problem? The definition of "need" is so broad and overarching that, over the course of many generations of MMOs, the community has come to agree upon a standardize set of loot rules, however loose they may be. These are not "hardcore MMO gamer" rules by any means; they are but children of common sense.

 

Regardless of whatever set of rules by which a player chooses to abide, the fairest and most clear-cut definition of Need should be restricted to the need of the characters present in the group. To dispute that is to open the floodgates to a myriad of claims of rights from other sources.

 

I have yet to see anyone refute these points, apart from those who, I assume, have no recourse but to resort to accusations of my being "too hardcore" or statements like "it's only a game." It's not just a game; it's an online community of living, breathing individuals, and when you elect to join a community (such as accepting an invitation into a group), you should make every effort to act in accordance to their standards. It's called common courtesy.

 

You pointed out the very fallacy of their position. Their arguments are not valid, they are simply subjective rationalizations to justify their demands. They can not defend their position, they are wrong; not by opinion but by the very process of logical thought. This is the very problem with many people who make such fallacious arguments and it is the very reason so many people avoid random groups these days. And we wonder why so many people are complaining about the need for "dungeon finders" and the like? It is because these personalities end up limiting their grouping options by their behavior.

[Lostpenguins]

Anyone whos taking companion gear @50 from 50's is doing it wrong.

Most of this is aboot levelling gear though when companions are a vital part of life.

 

Please see the post I made earlier that stated that you're companion wasn't there to help with the Flashpoint. I was. Hence I deserve the loot more than your companion does.

 

That would be like saying I deserve tanking loot in a Flashpoint when I was dps'ing because I usually use another spec when leveling... and taking it over the guy who was tanking the flashpoint.

 

Um... no.

[Notsensible]

That is wrong. I've done instances with a Sith Jugg, a sorc, an assassin, and a marauder and I've seen dozens of items drop that were for BH's or operatives.

 

In fact, my companion, Quinn, now has the Columni CP because the token for operatives dropped and we didn't have one in the group. So I asked if I could roll need since I use Quinn more than anyone else uses their companion that is an IA.

 

Sorry, I should have been a little more specific about what I meant by "optimal". I was mainly referring to the optimal armor type (heavy, medium, light). In your case, the marauder would fill medium type drops (regardless of str or cunning), sorc/assassin light type, and jugg for heavy type (str or aim).

 

My group I always run instances with only comprises of myself (light armor) and my 2 friends (both heavy armor). We have yet to see any medium BoP armor drop, even with a medium armor npc (which from my previous post was the focus of it). Maybe we're just that lucky to only get drops pertaining to our ideal armor types?