Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Bob-ombaFett]

I hope everyone has seen the sticky at the top of the page by the devs.

They are implementing fixes later this month!!!!!!!

 

They haven't specified what fixes will occur this month. It might not happen for a couple of months down the road, so I wouldn't keep my hopes up.

 

... even though I want it fixed next Tuesday. #^_^#

[KingKroova]

If you don't see the problem when questing it can't be "always there".

 

My point stands: sometimes the system works fine, it's just a different system from WoW, it doesn't go so heavily into animation clipping, and it's more concerned with looking good. If it were just that, there would be no problem, because everyone would be on a level playing field.

 

However, at times there are definitely problems with delay and animation that aren't lag-related, and are seemingly random - i.e. the system obviously is not working as intended, it's misfiring sometimes, or delaying firing, or out of sync, in some way. This is not a level playing field because you can bet your bottom dollar that there will be occasions when one person has the problem and his opponent doesn't.

 

THIS is the real problem. SWTOR just having a different style of avatar control is NOT a problem.

 

Gotta kindly disagree with this. I don' think the developers of this game purposely designed the combat system and responsiveness to feel a tad "off" and clunky. If this was their intention, then I'm not sure what was going through their heads.

[gurugeorge]

I hope everyone has seen the sticky at the top of the page by the devs.

They are implementing fixes later this month!!!!!!!

 

Agree or not, the fix is in for a real problem.

 

Agreed, the only point of caution is, for those who have been following this thread who want the type of avatar control you get in WoW, they may be disappointed when the fix fixes only the problems outlined by Flebberflep above.

[Halacs]

I just wanted to say thank you to Xcore for starting this thread with such a great write up of the issue at hand as well as to the rest of the community that actively was involved in getting to the root of the issue by explaining there own examples and creating some vides as well.

 

It might take more then one patch to get it right but here's hoping!

[Halacs]

They haven't specified what fixes will occur this month. It might not happen for a couple of months down the road, so I wouldn't keep my hopes up.

 

... even though I want it fixed next Tuesday. #^_^#

 

I prefer to be positive.

 

Plus having that at the top of the page as a sticky is nice to see; With all the people that come in here to troll or tell us we are full of crap and all.

 

It's on the hit list, it's in a sticky....fantastic start.

[Galbatorrix]

In WOW, if I click 3 insta cast spells in a row, they all insta cast. In TOR, I click it.... wait.. then the animation shows up a second or two later. If Blizzard could do it 7 years ago, Bioware should be able to do it now. I don't want ANY delay in my abilities. I want everything to work as the tool tip says. Instant should be instant. It should take 5 or 6 seconds to go through 4 instant abilities. The fact that it does is a huge issue.

[Xcore]

I am afraid it is.

 

There are several issues that have been mixed up in your threads. I suspect there's a bit of an irony here in that you aren't necessarily talking about what some other people are talking about. I think that's why the initial polite BW response to your thread was "it's a complex problem", because in fact there's a fair bit of talking at cross-purposes in all your threads. You all think you're agreeing about the same thing but it's clear to an outside observer that not all the participants in the thread are talking about the same thing.

 

The long and the short of it is that some of you just have WoW-nostalgia and find the system feels "clunky" to you even when it's working properly; others actually do notice a genuine problem of delayed actions, animation stutters, etc., but that problem is in fact intermittent, i.e. it doesn't happen all the time (and it's not fps or lag related).

 

Firstly, you may be correct about possible cross talking. However, this is unavoidable when discussing such a hard to define issue or "feeling". This threads purpose was to define this "feeling" and raise awareness to it due to its extreme importance and lack of understanding which Is beyond belief.

 

Secondly, you have no idea "how" aware I am of each point that is being discussed. From Client/Server Communication through Client Delay simulating responsiveness all the way to UI Bugs and Animation/Sound Sync.

 

What you have to realize is that I have read "every single post" (well over 5,000+) on this subject and i am simply tired of people coming at the tail end with "incredibly" limited understanding attempting to convince.

 

What I "really" need you to understand Is that this is NOT intermittent. Yes, it is complex and yes there many different issues contributing to the feeling of disconnect from your Avatar... but stop believing that it is only at some places, peak times, some abilities, sometimes.

 

Read this carefully:

 

It is a complete Issue of the feeling of responsiveness, many single facets contribute to this. From client/server comm to sound sync and everything in between discussed for 5 threads.

 

THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART:

 

1) It is not intermittent

2) Every single ability is affected, some display the delay/issue jarringly, some faintly, some not at all.

3) Even abilities that appear perfectly smooth suffer this issue, it is merely masked well.

4) Every single player suffers this Issue EXACTLY the same, only some perceive it better/worse, more/less.

 

5) It is 100% replicable

 

Stop trying to argue its intermittent, your not affected, its only in laggy places etc etc etc...

[Bob-ombaFett]

Gotta kindly disagree with this. I don' think the developers of this game purposely designed the combat system and responsiveness to feel a tad "off" and clunky. If this was their intention, then I'm not sure what was going through their heads.

 

I agree that the devs probably didn't want this clunky gameplay. I'm sure they are gamers too, and they have common sense.

 

My theory is that they wanted it out of the door so they can start making the money, THEN quickly (hopefully) fix the inherent problems with the Hero Engine.

 

The problem with that is, what if they aren't able to fix it easily?

[gurugeorge]

Gotta kindly disagree with this. I don' think the developers of this game purposely designed the combat system and responsiveness to feel a tad "off" and clunky. If this was their intention, then I'm not sure what was going through their heads.

 

As I say, if you think that the combat while normally questing is "off" and "clunky" then you probably just don't like that style of gameplay, you probably want the instantaneous animation-disregarding feel of WoW.

 

And that's what some of the people in these threads are talking about. They want BW to overhaul the combat system to make it more like WoW.

 

If, on the other hand, you are talking about a problem of clunkiness that only becomes apparent in competitive circumstances, or in really busy moments even while questing, then that was obviously not part of BW's design, which is why it's going to be fixed.

 

And that's what some other people in these threads have been talking about.

 

Not everyone in these threads has been talking about the same thing.

[Halacs]

Agreed, the only point of caution is, for those who have been following this thread who want the type of avatar control you get in WoW, they may be disappointed when the fix fixes only the problems outlined by Flebberflep above.

 

You might be right, but I hope not lol. I likes crisp interface where animation does not take priority over action.

[Makade]

It's not a major issue...I've barely noticed it. Yes it needs to be fixed, but quit being so dramatic. Edited January 6, 2012 by Makade

[CaineDVamp]

Before you label me a Troll

 

**** Troll

[Woopya]

among other places I will mention this bug here because it is related to this topic.

 

 

the Sith Sorc skill fadeout is a run speed buff to whoever we put our stasis barrier on. It is supposed to last 3 seconds. The timer for the buff begins the second you cast the ability.

 

However it takes about 1.5 seconds for the ability to execute the casting animation and actually begin the ability.

 

Effectively, you get about 1-1.5 seconds of runspeed buff instead of the 3 your supposed to get.

[gurugeorge]

1) It is not intermittent

2) Every single ability is affected, some display the delay/issue jarringly, some faintly, some not at all.

3) Even abilities that appear perfectly smooth suffer this issue, it is merely masked well.

4) Every single player suffers this Issue EXACTLY the same, only some perceive it better/worse, more/less.

 

5) It is 100% replicable

 

 

I'm sorry but it's here that you're losing me. Unless I have some evidence that you're a programmer or game developer who knows what he's talking about, I'm going to have to say that the above just sounds like voodoo.

 

The problem is there but some abilities manifest it "faintly or not at all"????

 

"Even abilities that appear perfectly smooth suffer this issue, it's merely masked well"???

 

How the hell would you know these kinds of things without analytical tools that go well beyond YouTube?

 

Kudos to you for raising a point persistently enough so that some genuine problems have been flagged and are going to be fixed, but frankly some of the above sounds rather Kafkaesque.

[Xcore]

Agreed, the only point of caution is, for those who have been following this thread who want the type of avatar control you get in WoW, they may be disappointed when the fix fixes only the problems outlined by Flebberflep above.

 

No! Get out of this thread...character responsiveness is character responsiveness. It needs to be perfect or as close as possible. If they don't reach or exceed WoWs level of response or illusion of response then its a failure, simple.

 

Get your uninformed, WoW hating self out of this thread. You are not contributing anything of value and merely confusing newcomers.

[Galbatorrix]

It's not a major issue...I've barely noticed it. Yes it needs to be fixed, but quit being so dramatic.

 

 

You've obviously never played an MMO where there is no delay. If you had, you'd realize how big a deal it is. Especially in PVP.

[Halacs]

I'm sorry but it's here that you're losing me. Unless I have some evidence that you're a programmer or game developer who knows what he's talking about, I'm going to have to say that the above just sounds like voodoo.

 

The problem is there but some abilities manifest it "faintly or not at all"????

 

"Even abilities that appear perfectly smooth suffer this issue, it's merely masked well"???

 

How the hell would you know these kinds of things without analytical tools that go well beyond YouTube?

 

Kudos to you for raising a point persistently enough so that some genuine problems have been flagged and are going to be fixed, but frankly some of the above sounds rather Kafkaesque.

 

 

Tons of videos has been posted.

 

But, for me I have used both of my computers to test this in multiple geographical locations with one of said computers, across two different ISP's.

 

Sometimes it does seem smoother, but if you watch cast bars, GCD, and health bars you can still see the problem. I fairly sure that's what he's referring to, but I could be wrong.

[Flebberflep]

No! Get out of this thread...character responsiveness is character responsiveness. It needs to be perfect or as close as possible. If they don't reach or exceed WoWs level of response or illusion of response then its a failure, simple.

 

Get your uninformed, WoW hating self out of this thread. You are not contributing anything of value and merely confusing newcomers.

 

This is where you're losing me. I agree that I want the combat system to be solid, but replicating WoW probably isn't even what they want to do. You need to have some respect for varying combat systems, not every MMO that's ever made is going to try to copy WoW's combat engine exactly, if it did then what would be the point in making more than 1 MMO?

 

Your militant disregard for a varied combat system is putting me off your entire argument, which is sad because when I first read it I thought it was reasonably well founded. If you want the game to be like WoW, play WoW.

 

If you want to play SW:TOR, you need to respect that the combat system is different, and it's more than likely never going to be the same as in WoW.

[Xilentor]

It's not a major issue...I've barely noticed it. Yes it needs to be fixed, but quit being so dramatic.

 

That's okay it's because you're bad at this game.

[Halacs]

It's not a major issue...I've barely noticed it. Yes it needs to be fixed, but quit being so dramatic.

 

Where do you get off downplaying this issue for others? You have no right.

 

The same problem can hold a different meaning to others, because they are not you.

 

Not a big problem? Big enough to warrant five or six respawns for this thread and a sticky on the forums?

 

Big enough to have been talk about in interviews?

 

You bring nothing to this discussion.

[Iite]

They responded to the issue and indicated they have fixes in the works.

[Xcore]

I'm sorry but it's here that you're losing me. Unless I have some evidence that you're a programmer or game developer who knows what he's talking about, I'm going to have to say that the above just sounds like voodoo.

 

The problem is there but some abilities manifest it "faintly or not at all"????

 

"Even abilities that appear perfectly smooth suffer this issue, it's merely masked well"???

 

How the hell would you know these kinds of things without analytical tools that go well beyond YouTube?

 

Kudos to you for raising a point persistently enough so that some genuine problems have been flagged and are going to be fixed, but frankly some of the above sounds rather Kafkaesque.

 

Nothing I posted is contradictory or in fact wrong. This is not about a few simple problems or bugs that will be squashed or fixed. You have to realize that it is part of the core combat mechanics and general coding coupled with actual bugs (mostly In UI and sound).

 

You yourself are unable to see the multiple real causes for being blinded by the individual symptoms.

 

Once again, read the above points I outlined, they are all accurate. A statement such as "it happens sometimes" shows only lack of knowledge.

[Tiron_Raptor]

No! Get out of this thread...character responsiveness is character responsiveness. It needs to be perfect or as close as possible. If they don't reach or exceed WoWs level of response or illusion of response then its a failure, simple.

 

Get your uninformed, WoW hating self out of this thread. You are not contributing anything of value and merely confusing newcomers.

 

The problem I always had with WoW's 'level of response' is that it was so mixed. Animations didn't play fluidly, and sometimes didn't even have all their components coordinated. Every time you seriously got going it was a crapshoot how badly broken up it was going to be.

 

Frankly, to my mind that's just another kind of 'unresponsiveness'. Having my character suddenly warp from one position into a completely different one to have the animations 'keep up' is incredibly immersion breaking to me.

 

My Mage's Fire blast in particular was bad about this: As an instant cast spell, it didn't have the wind-up time so many others did. So the hit effect would appear instantly, along with the damage, and the glowing hands. Problem was, a fair portion of the time the character's hands were still at her sides, or otherwise not aligned with the normal casting position. She'd then suddenly jump at what appeared to be nearly infinite velocity to the 'finished casting' pose about half a second after the cast.

 

It looked even worse than if the whole thing had just gone off a tiny bit late.

 

So I wholly disagree about the animations needing to be just as responsive as in WoW: The animations in WoW were terrible. They looked aweful because they were constantly being broken in an effort to 'keep up'.

 

We don't need that kind of 'responsiveness'. As long as the UI's accurate and responsive the rest is just fluff, and as fluff it not looking like crap is a high priority.

 

Not to mention I suspect that fixing the client sync issues will probably vastly improve the animation delays as well.

[gurugeorge]

No! Get out of this thread...character responsiveness is character responsiveness. It needs to be perfect or as close as possible. If they don't reach or exceed WoWs level of response or illusion of response then its a failure, simple.

 

Get your uninformed, WoW hating self out of this thread. You are not contributing anything of value and merely confusing newcomers.

 

But I don't hate WoW, I actually think it's a brilliantly well-made game!

 

But it's a different game from SWTOR. And as I said way back, one of the few things I disliked about WoW was the animation clipping - it made my avatar feel even more cartoonish and "lightweight" than its art design made it. I prefer the more "weighty" and "realistic" feel of SWTOR, I prefer to feel, rather than my next keypress instantly overriding my previous command, that it's queued in to be fired off WHEN MY CHARACTER IS READY. (AoC melee had this sort of animation too.)

 

Now the REAL problem is that this isn't happening smoothly all the time. Flebberflep above had it exactly right, the REAL problem is: "the combination of abilities not firing, the GCD firing for no reason, and non-GCD abilties triggering the GCD"

 

It's sounding more and more like what's happened is this: you want that fast, lightweight, inconsequential-feeling but highly competitive WoW-like gameplay in SWTOR, and in the course of making a thread promoting that, you inadvertently attracted some people who have been noticing some genuine problems with responsiveness that, yes, aren't lag or fps related but yes, are also intermittent, and yes, are going to be fixed. The irony is rich

[gurugeorge]

You yourself are unable to see the multiple real causes for being blinded by the individual symptoms.

 

Once again, read the above points I outlined, they are all accurate. A statement such as "it happens sometimes" shows only lack of knowledge.

 

And your programming/game development credentials are ... ?

Edited January 6, 2012 by gurugeorge