Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[audioedge]

Did you play WoW at release? Because it certainly had issues like this (not exactly like, but in the realm), and the encounters were not nearly as complex as they are now. The most advanced encounter in the game, pre-expansions, was Kal'thazud, and his mechanics are considered a joke by modern WoW raiders. Even the "hard" fights like Saphiron were just resistance checks. None of these complex mechanics were in the game yet.

 

It took WoW seven years of constant development and refinement to get where they are now. Seven years. Let me repeat that, seven years.

 

im sorry it didnt take seven years combat was fast from the get go... it took seven years to get where it is now... but what has stopped BW from noticing and developing similar stuff? with a 300 mill budget and more recent dev tools you would think the game would be alot more outstanding than it is...

 

the sad fact is, this game is a massive let down for lots of people

[JediGnome]

in wow the "hard fights" were in bc and not now. so no 7 years

 

He didn't say hard, he said complex. There is a huge difference. BC didn't have near the mechanical complexity that Wrath and Cata have had. Not even close. BC was hard because the numbers were big.

[Lawconis]

Anyone? Shock instants vs. Project travel times?

[JediGnome]

im sorry it didnt take seven years combat was fast from the get go... it took seven years to get where it is now... but what has stopped BW from noticing and developing similar stuff? with a 300 mill budget and more recent dev tools you would think the game would be alot more outstanding than it is...

 

the sad fact is, this game is a massive let down for lots of people

 

I wish, I really really wish, there was like an archive of the WoW general forums from 2004 somewhere. Maybe there is, the internet knows all.

 

At any rate, you'd see the exact posts you are seeing here. This game sucks, this game is a letdown, I'm going back to DAoC, DAoC/EQ did X, Y and Z better. This game is already dying. It's not an exact clone of the last game I played, it sucks.

[JediGnome]

Point went over your head, eh?

 

... WoW didn't have ability delay at launch, infact it was constantly praised for the smoothness of it's combat.

 

If you could participate in the combat, because for the first month of WoW's release it was a yo-yo it went up and down so much. If you could even login to see that the game servers were down, because the authentication servers were a mess for nearly two months after release.

 

How far are we in to the TOR release? Three weeks? Can I login and play the game, whenever I want? Oh why yes I can.

 

This revisionist history of WoW at release is getting tiresome. WoW's release was a mess, a total mess. The servers weren't completely playable and stable for nearly six months after release. Why do you think it took Blizzard six months to add Dire Maul, despite the content being done and nearly completely polished right after release? They couldn't keep the game stable.

 

I am sure in your own mind though, you are convinced that the WoW release was flawless, had no bugs, and had 2011 levels of encounter complexity from November 23rd 2004 onward.

[Tiron_Raptor]

Anyone? Shock instants vs. Project travel times?

 

The damage on project also happens instantly: the client just holds off on displaying it until the projectile hits to create the illusion that the projectile did the damage, and it wasn't just you pressing the button. It gets applied on the server (where it counts) just as quickly, and probably even has the damage sent to your client just as fast, too.

[Chaosmagistrate]

Did you play WoW at release? Because it certainly had issues like this (not exactly like, but in the realm), and the encounters were not nearly as complex as they are now. The most advanced encounter in the game, pre-expansions, was Kal'thazud, and his mechanics are considered a joke by modern WoW raiders. Even the "hard" fights like Saphiron were just resistance checks. None of these complex mechanics were in the game yet.

 

It took WoW seven years of constant development and refinement to get where they are now. Seven years. Let me repeat that, seven years.

 

WoW launch issues were server queues, massive server crashes, servers offline for days, horrifying lag in congested areas. However combat was very smooth. There wasn't any missed abilities, even though you hammered they key 11 times, and the tolerances were set in game that moves fired properly and on time. WoW got combat right, pretty much from the get go. If you charged your target in Southshore, server lag might screw you for 5s, and lock up your computer, and then everyone zooms all over the place, but by god your target would still be there, unlike in TOR, where Force Leap in PvP is like playing Russian Roulette.

 

Agreed, WoW for the first six months was plagued by horrific server bottlenecks, but that is separate from the issue being discussed here.

 

A large majority of complaints here seem to be from the warzone crowd, and healers, due to watching their party fall apart around them as they cannot cast due to animation delays what not.

 

Let me repeat: What is being discussed is the sluggish and jilted combat mechanics in this game, not the content, nor the complexity of such content, or the severe server issues during launch.

 

Outside of this and the usual launch bugs, which WoW had, TOR, in my opinion is a really well made game, and it's launch is miles ahead of both WoW and WO for launches. But the shoddy combat is what really irks me, as it makes PvP a crapshoot.

 

And for the record, Twin Emps and C'thun were two of the funnest encounters to learn. Vicidius not so much. That POS blob can diaf.

[Zydrate]

If you could participate in the combat, because for the first month of WoW's release it was a yo-yo it went up and down so much. If you could even login to see that the game servers were down, because the authentication servers were a mess for nearly two months after release.

 

How far are we in to the TOR release? Three weeks? Can I login and play the game, whenever I want? Oh why yes I can.

 

This revisionist history of WoW at release is getting tiresome. WoW's release was a mess, a total mess. The servers weren't completely playable and stable for nearly six months after release. Why do you think it took Blizzard six months to add Dire Maul, despite the content being done and nearly completely polished right after release? They couldn't keep the game stable.

 

I am sure in your own mind though, you are convinced that the WoW release was flawless, had no bugs, and had 2011 levels of encounter complexity from November 23rd 2004 onward.

 

I would honestly rather have server crashes and instability than a game which is up all the time but horrible to play. The combat system in WoW was vastly superior in term of responsiveness, which in turn made it more enjoyable. The delay issues couples with horrible FPS issues might as WELL be server downtime because every time I log in I do a Warzone or a couple quests and think to myself, "Oh right, this isn't fun at all" before promptly logging back out.

 

No one said WoW's release was perfect, but at least WoW at its core was well programmed... same cannot be said for this. Good story, atrocious game.

[Noxxia]

It's ok, I agree on the incredible negativity but everyone has to understand that it is fostered and increased by lack of communication and only natural considering the issue at hand as well as length of thread.

 

I wholeheartedly disagree, WoW at no point had these issues. It had latency issues and lag, server side. Perhaps you'd be stuck casting frostbolt for about 8 seconds and then everything fast forwards lol. Sure, I remember Ulduar, I played in the top 100 U.S. at the time and I know the server lag you're referring to. However, it has nothing to do with this problem.

 

Reading more (after posting again) and being less tired I think I see what you're referring to a bit more now and you're right. However I disagree with it ruining the game for most people. I think the game lends itself to caring more about the story than anything else. Now if it becomes a serious issue and PVE bosses can't be killed because of it, then yeah, it'll ruin it for those people too. Fortunately there are no dps meters so if it happens to one person but the boss dies, there's no ridicule .

 

IMO, I don't think this is a game for people who want a rich pvp experience. I dislike RPG pvp wholeheartedly for a few reasons, some of which are personal, others just the nature of the beast.

 

1) it's too complex to actually balance

2) it general lends to who plays more, is better (aside from the practice aspect of it) because of gear

3) no collision mesh makes it a retarded spin around in circles circle jerk.

4) 2 people die on my team while all 5 of yours are alive. 9 times out of 10, the game is already over. You simply cannot 1v5 because you have the focus and will power to win like you can in Counter Strike. That sort of drama is lost in RPG pvp, which turns me off from it.

 

I think since there are no "arenas" and stat tracking, that Bioware isn't really concerned about creating competative pvp at the moment. If they were to make competative pvp a part of the game, I think their best bet is Hutt Ball for many reasons that simply are not on topic.

 

Really, I think it doesn't ruin it for people who Bioware is catering to. Somehow, I don't think they're trying to cater to EVERYONE straight off the bat like WoW does. Their strength right now is story telling and though I agree, this is an issue that should be fixed, I don't believe it's a game killer quite like you are implying.

[Tiron_Raptor]

Reading more (after posting again) and being less tired I think I see what you're referring to a bit more now and you're right. However I disagree with it ruining the game for most people. I think the game lends itself to caring more about the story than anything else. Now if it becomes a serious issue and PVE bosses can't be killed because of it, then yeah, it'll ruin it for those people too. Fortunately there are no dps meters so if it happens to one person but the boss dies, there's no ridicule .

 

IMO, I don't think this is a game for people who want a rich pvp experience. I dislike RPG pvp wholeheartedly for a few reasons, some of which are personal, others just the nature of the beast.

 

1) it's too complex to actually balance

2) it general lends to who plays more, is better (aside from the practice aspect of it) because of gear

3) no collision mesh makes it a retarded spin around in circles circle jerk.

4) 2 people die on my team while all 5 of yours are alive. 9 times out of 10, the game is already over. You simply cannot 1v5 because you have the focus and will power to win like you can in Counter Strike. That sort of drama is lost in RPG pvp, which turns me off from it.

 

I think since there are no "arenas" and stat tracking, that Bioware isn't really concerned about creating competative pvp at the moment. If they were to make competative pvp a part of the game, I think their best bet is Hutt Ball for many reasons that simply are not on topic.

 

Really, I think it doesn't ruin it for people who Bioware is catering to. Somehow, I don't think they're trying to cater to EVERYONE straight off the bat like WoW does. Their strength right now is story telling and though I agree, this is an issue that should be fixed, I don't believe it's a game killer quite like you are implying.

 

Some of the issues presented here are in fact major bugs with serious performance impacts: particuarly a few of the ones that prevent certain abilities from being used (the non-GCD issue in particular, because a large portion of defensive abilities are of this type).

 

If these aren't fixed, it will, in fact, pretty well be a gamebreaker.

 

Some of the other stuff, like the animations and damage displays being slow, or even to a considerable extent the issues with the ability queue are much more minor, as they have minute effects on the actual gameplay at best.

[pattongb]

This ^^

 

 

^QFTW.

 

Nicely done and I agree.

 

Love the game, but this issue will need to be fixed or I will find myself playing alone...(as others leave in droves).

[Xcore]

Reading more (after posting again) and being less tired I think I see what you're referring to a bit more now and you're right. However I disagree with it ruining the game for most people. I think the game lends itself to caring more about the story than anything else. Now if it becomes a serious issue and PVE bosses can't be killed because of it, then yeah, it'll ruin it for those people too. Fortunately there are no dps meters so if it happens to one person but the boss dies, there's no ridicule .

 

IMO, I don't think this is a game for people who want a rich pvp experience. I dislike RPG pvp wholeheartedly for a few reasons, some of which are personal, others just the nature of the beast.

 

1) it's too complex to actually balance

2) it general lends to who plays more, is better (aside from the practice aspect of it) because of gear

3) no collision mesh makes it a retarded spin around in circles circle jerk.

4) 2 people die on my team while all 5 of yours are alive. 9 times out of 10, the game is already over. You simply cannot 1v5 because you have the focus and will power to win like you can in Counter Strike. That sort of drama is lost in RPG pvp, which turns me off from it.

 

I think since there are no "arenas" and stat tracking, that Bioware isn't really concerned about creating competative pvp at the moment. If they were to make competative pvp a part of the game, I think their best bet is Hutt Ball for many reasons that simply are not on topic.

 

Really, I think it doesn't ruin it for people who Bioware is catering to. Somehow, I don't think they're trying to cater to EVERYONE straight off the bat like WoW does. Their strength right now is story telling and though I agree, this is an issue that should be fixed, I don't believe it's a game killer quite like you are implying.

 

Sure I can accept that. However, in an unresponsive environment like this one cannot create tightly tuned encounters. Ultimately, once the story gets old, you're screwed.

 

Edit: Posted on phone with errors

Edited January 6, 2012 by Xcore

[Chaosmagistrate]

Reading more (after posting again) and being less tired I think I see what you're referring to a bit more now and you're right. However I disagree with it ruining the game for most people. I think the game lends itself to caring more about the story than anything else. Now if it becomes a serious issue and PVE bosses can't be killed because of it, then yeah, it'll ruin it for those people too. Fortunately there are no dps meters so if it happens to one person but the boss dies, there's no ridicule .

 

IMO, I don't think this is a game for people who want a rich pvp experience. I dislike RPG pvp wholeheartedly for a few reasons, some of which are personal, others just the nature of the beast.

 

1) it's too complex to actually balance

2) it general lends to who plays more, is better (aside from the practice aspect of it) because of gear

3) no collision mesh makes it a retarded spin around in circles circle jerk.

4) 2 people die on my team while all 5 of yours are alive. 9 times out of 10, the game is already over. You simply cannot 1v5 because you have the focus and will power to win like you can in Counter Strike. That sort of drama is lost in RPG pvp, which turns me off from it.

 

I think since there are no "arenas" and stat tracking, that Bioware isn't really concerned about creating competative pvp at the moment. If they were to make competative pvp a part of the game, I think their best bet is Hutt Ball for many reasons that simply are not on topic.

 

Really, I think it doesn't ruin it for people who Bioware is catering to. Somehow, I don't think they're trying to cater to EVERYONE straight off the bat like WoW does. Their strength right now is story telling and though I agree, this is an issue that should be fixed, I don't believe it's a game killer quite like you are implying.

 

I'm an EGA JK Sentinel who went DS. I cannot complete my Kira quest line, and apparently from forum posts, this may tie in to my final quest.

 

So for now, at level 50, my story line is stuck at Corellia, while I hope for a fix.

 

None of my guild's healers are 50 yet, so right now, I am playing the PvP which is actually quite enjoyable, except for watching some of my moves hit like 1s later than I wanted, which causes me no end to frustration. Or when I Force Leap back into the character screen.

 

So right now, story is broken, so until next week, when our healers hit 50, all I have is PvP. That and my alts.

[Xcore]

Some of the issues presented here are in fact major bugs with serious performance impacts: particuarly a few of the ones that prevent certain abilities from being used (the non-GCD issue in particular, because a large portion of defensive abilities are of this type).

 

If these aren't fixed, it will, in fact, pretty well be a gamebreaker.

 

Some of the other stuff, like the animations and damage displays being slow, or even to a considerable extent the issues with the ability queue are much more minor, as they have minute effects on the actual gameplay at best.

 

I agree with the exception that animation and damage display delay is also attributed to the disconnect feeling of Avatar Responsiveness as well as ability delay.

 

Again, this thread is about the overall feeling of connection between the person behind the keyboard and the Avatar. Character Responsiveness. I hope that you by now realize there is a delay in animation as well as ability execution, regardless of the technicality of when the Server receives information.

[Xcore]

I have said, repeatedly, that it is a complex, multifaceted issue. I have reiterated that the Bioware post pretty much flat out said that lumping these various issues together made it harder to find and fix them.

 

All I've been trying to say the entire time, is that most of the issues lumped in here have nothing to do with 'delay' or 'responsiveness', which is what the topic is ostensibly about.

 

I'm also trying to point out that several of the vids YOU linked exhibit no non-cosmetic responsiveness issues at ALL.

 

Because no matter what you say about "nobody is disputing the fact that the server registers certain events for which the animations delay?", the way you frame your responses and try to demonstrate your points indicate that you're relying on the client relaying the effects of things happening to determine when things 'worked', which indicates that you do not in fact understand at all.

 

Seriously. Try it. Try to find a way to deliberately screw up the way the client displays what you're trying to do. Interrupt it. Disconnect before it relays a response and have someone else monitor what happens. Find a no-cooldown instant with an animation longer than the GCD and just spam the crap out of it. Find some way to separate what actually happens from what appears to happen.

 

It'd eliminate a huge variable and make it quite clear what I'm trying to say: the client, for the sake of appearances, deliberately holds back from displaying information it already has, and that has in fact already been applied, until it would 'look right' for what happens.

 

There's already a number of videos demonstrating that if you push it off far enough that it can't do that and keep up, it stops doing it. Your smuggler video for example, where the grenade damage and debuff are applied almost immediately at the start of the animation, presumably because of the long animation in front of it. (I'd be very interested to time how long the grenades takes to travel to the target when the anim does start, and compare it to how long it takes between the resource pull and the damage appearing.) The kolto-injection IA video also demonstrates this: the animations get badly desynched and go to crap, but the ability keeps working (for a bit anyway).

 

If you do this, deliberately prevent the display from being able to keep up with the abilities, one of two things will happen:

 

If I'm right, the damage and effects will all end up being applied anyway, in the correct order, at something approximating the correct time (depending on how much the client can compensate and continue cosmetic-ing it. This is why pushing it really hard is important).

 

If You're right, once the display gets seriously jacked up, the abilities will start seriously malfunctioning as well. Things going in the wrong order, cooldowns not working properly, things getting skipped to no effect... all sorts of crazy effects that seriously mess up combat.

 

Either way, it'd be obvious.

 

 

What you need to understand is that this entire thread's purpose is about defining the core issue of Avatar Disconnect Feeling. The reason we all go back to WoW... please re-read the OP.

 

The technical aspects are complex but just as much as the issue is attributed to Client/Server Latency, it is also the design decision that Animation Display > UI/Player Input.

 

The Smuggler Bolts --> Grenade video showcases this perfectly, the cast bar completes. Immediately following this the grenade should be thrown but it isn't because the system requires blaster bolt animation to finish.

 

It is completely irrelevant that ONCE THE GRENADE ABILITY IS INITIATED the damage registers prematurely. The whole point is that the Grenade ability itself is delayed.

[Keii]

Just posting a reply to rate the thread.

[berothop]

I really hope that the things they said they were going to work on january are the issues presented here..

[Tiron_Raptor]

What you need to understand is that this entire thread's purpose is about defining the core issue of Avatar Disconnect Feeling. The reason we all go back to WoW... please re-read the OP.

 

The technical aspects are complex but just as much as the issue is attributed to Client/Server Latency, it is also the design decision that Animation Display > UI/Player Input.

 

The Smuggler Bolts --> Grenade video showcases this perfectly, the cast bar completes. Immediately following this the grenade should be thrown but it isn't because the system requires blaster bolt animation to finish.

 

It is completely irrelevant that ONCE THE GRENADE ABILITY IS INITIATED the damage registers prematurely. The whole point is that the Grenade ability itself is delayed.

 

Ahh, see now there we go.

 

You've at least partially got my point now, it seems.

 

Yes, the animations are delayed, which also delays the appearance of when the ability goes off. That's the key point though: the appearance of when it goes off.

 

What I've been trying to say all this time is that the appearance of when it goes off, and when it actually goes off, are NOT synchronized. I mean quite clearly they're not, you'd have to be blind not to see that.

 

My point, however, is that because the server controls everything, and that what happens on the server is the ONLY thing that matters... the display on your client being a bit out of sync doesn't actually affect the use of the abilities, or your ability to fight to your full potential. The server already knows you hit him with the grenade for xx damage before your client even starts the animation: practically speaking, he'd in reality already taken the damage before your client caught up and showed it.

 

This is true because the quickslots and your resource bar *are* synced. I think the buffs/debuffs on your own character are too, but I haven't personally verified it so I can't say for sure. Anyway, the point is, enough of the UI is properly synced to allow you to fight properly, despite the animations and damage indications being delayed.

 

As for the grenade's damage going off 'prematurely', my speculation is that it was the client trying to keep from getting too out of sync: it recognized that the animation was especially late and displayed the actual effects early in order to keep from being too far off. I've wondered in fact if it didn't actually display the damage at the same time it would've had the animation NOT been delayed by the first ability, which is why I mentioned timing the grenade launcher anim and comparing it to how long it takes after the resource pull before the damage appears.

 

In short, my point is that the display being off is not in and of itself the gamebreaking issue that some people are claiming. Irritating? Clunky? Suboptimal? Absolutely, I'm in agreement with you there. But gamebreaking? Not at all.

 

I'm starting to wonder if it might in fact actually be related to the ease with which you can dismount yourself, and the delay at the end of a healing cast. There's more than a few hints that the client-server sync is screwed up above and beyond just simple network latency somehow, and if my other speculation that the client is waiting for the response from the server before it starts animating is correct, the same root problem would be adding the excess delay to the animations as well.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Tiron_Raptor

[SolStark]

I didn't think much of this issue until last night. I've been logging in fairly regular and never had any problems activating abilities until then. Yes, it does break the enjoyment of the game. I cut my gaming session short after logging out and back in and even restarting my computer, all of which had no effect.

 

Pressing abilities in the action bar 2 to 4 times until one activates is no fun. Movement seemed to be ok but clicking anything with the mouse was a bit frustrating. Hope they fix this soon.

 

Thanks to the OP for a well constructed post.

[Tiron_Raptor]

I didn't think much of this issue until last night. I've been logging in fairly regular and never had any problems activating abilities until then. Yes, it does break the enjoyment of the game. I cut my gaming session short after logging out and back in and even restarting my computer, all of which had no effect.

 

Pressing abilities in the action bar 2 to 4 times until one activates is no fun. Movement seemed to be ok but clicking anything with the mouse was a bit frustrating. Hope they fix this soon.

 

Thanks to the OP for a well constructed post.

 

Hmm...when you were having to hit abilities repeatedly, were you using the mouse or a keybind? If the mouse, were the clicks registering(the icon gets a dark overlay on top of it when you activate it)? I haven't seen it in a bit, but there's been a bug lurking around where the mouse loses the ability to click on the UI.

 

If that's what it was it's relatively easy to fix: if you hit ctrl+u twice, it will hide the UI and then bring it back, which also resets it and clears most 'sticky' UI problems.

 

Admittedly it sounds more like things were simply failing to fire. If it was abilities that are supposed to be off the Global Cooldown, there's for-sure a serious bug that causes them not to go off sometimes.

 

I don't suppose you could tell us if it was everything, or just certain abilities, and if only certain abilities, which ones?

[Xcore]

Ahh, see now there we go.

 

You've at least partially got my point now, it seems.

 

Yes, the animations are delayed, which also delays the appearance of when the ability goes off. That's the key point though: the appearance of when it goes off.

 

What I've been trying to say all this time is that the appearance of when it goes off, and when it actually goes off, are NOT synchronized. I mean quite clearly they're not, you'd have to be blind not to see that.

 

My point, however, is that because the server controls everything, and that what happens on the server is the ONLY thing that matters... the display on your client being a bit out of sync doesn't actually affect the use of the abilities, or your ability to fight to your full potential. The server already knows you hit him with the grenade for xx damage before your client even starts the animation: practically speaking, he'd in reality already taken the damage before your client caught up and showed it.

 

This is true because the quickslots and your resource bar *are* synced. I think the buffs/debuffs on your own character are too, but I haven't personally verified it so I can't say for sure. Anyway, the point is, enough of the UI is properly synced to allow you to fight properly, despite the animations and damage indications being delayed.

 

As for the grenade's damage going off 'prematurely', my speculation is that it was the client trying to keep from getting too out of sync: it recognized that the animation was especially late and displayed the actual effects early in order to keep from being too far off. I've wondered in fact if it didn't actually display the damage at the same time it would've had the animation NOT been delayed by the first ability, which is why I mentioned timing the grenade launcher anim and comparing it to how long it takes after the resource pull before the damage appears.

 

In short, my point is that the display being off is not in and of itself the gamebreaking issue that some people are claiming. Irritating? Clunky? Suboptimal? Absolutely, I'm in agreement with you there. But gamebreaking? Not at all.

 

I'm starting to wonder if it might in fact actually be related to the ease with which you can dismount yourself, and the delay at the end of a healing cast. There's more than a few hints that the client-server sync is screwed up above and beyond just simple network latency somehow, and if my other speculation that the client is waiting for the response from the server before it starts animating is correct, the same root problem would be adding the excess delay to the animations as well.

 

I got your point all this time... I just don't like singling out "one little aspect" of the overall issue of "Clunky Feeling"... which is labelled Character/Avatar Responsiveness.

 

My entire point to you is in GREEN: EVERYONE HERE UNDERSTANDS THIS. That is why we're p***ed at you. Stop talking about it, its a small, fraction of the overall issue.

 

What I want you to understand now is that there is a factual coding issue in both the Engine Code as well as Feature Code. This leads to the ability delay problems as well as the Client/Server Sync/Latency.

 

 

ON TOP OF THAT:

 

You have the combat design decision that Bioware took (Code) to prioritize Animation > Gamerplay Response. Thus the Smuggler Video.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Xcore

[Lawconis]

The damage on project also happens instantly: the client just holds off on displaying it until the projectile hits to create the illusion that the projectile did the damage, and it wasn't just you pressing the button. It gets applied on the server (where it counts) just as quickly, and probably even has the damage sent to your client just as fast, too.

 

Why do you keep saying this? My opponent is running away from me ALIVE until the rock hits them. SHock kills them instant.

 

Particle Acceleration can fall off AFTER the rocks leaves the ground but before it hits. The range changes and ability will fizzle and/or the rock will NOT crit

 

Some of your points are animation problems. My problem is a game mechanic. Very different.

[sabresandiego]

This thread needs to stay on the front page.

[Khoranth]

I disagree, not in a multiplayer. This is based on what I perceive to be fun though so completely subjective. I agree with your general point though and why not PvP turn based? Scorched Earth was awesome...

 

Guess the PVP thing is my own "fun objective" I like fast paced PVP.

 

I think the slower paced , animation oriented PVE could work, It would just require hard work and creativity to make fun content.

[Olzmo]

Guess the PVP thing is my own "fun objective" I like fast paced PVP.

 

I think the slower paced , animation oriented PVE could work, It would just require hard work and creativity to make fun content.

Possibly, but I think that in order for that kind of combat system to be equal and have versatile animations and abilities for different classes it'd easily get way too complex to accomplish.