Please allow dual spec or cap respec costs.

[Lethality]

Your right, one requires minimum coding time, the other will divert the devs from fixing bugs and adding new features for a considerable time.

 

Dual spec was confirmed as something they wanted to add soon after release, a Mac client is a hmm maybe.

 

Dual-spec is as confirmed as a Mac version at this point.

 

Anyway, I have no doubt they are going to cave and add it in for all of the gimme-gamers. But I want to try to mitigate the damage if they do.

 

Give players who stick with their spec longer over time bonuses to some form of progression - experience, legacy, social or valor. The players who switch their spec frequently don't lose a thing and gain the flexibility they always wanted. The players who want to stick with their chosen role can get some perks for playing the right way.

[DaxRendar]

Your spec should be your role the majority of the time.

 

It's lucky enough you can switch them at all, but you should absolutely NOT be able to switch them at the drop of a hat. On the odd chance you want/need to, then BioWare has given you a way to do so.

 

Obviously the design intention is not to have players switching on and off 10 times a day. Why do you think they don't have this in the game already?

 

Hmm...

 

I get Daily Flashpoint Quests...

I get Daily Warzone QUests...

 

Maybe BW wanted me to be able to engage in PvP and PvE content every day?

 

Lethality, I noticed you abandoned your own thread on this when logic was used against you. I guess you retreated here for more reinforcements

 

Personally, I'd love it if role were defined by GEAR like it will be in Guild Wars 2. It makes a lot more sense for me if my Trooper equipped:

- A Blaster Pistol, Diagnostic Scanner, and Medikit to Heal

- A Scattergun, Personal Defense Shield, and Reinforced Armor to Tank

- An Assault Cannon, Targeting Assist, and Extra Ammo for Damage Dealing

 

rather than the silly "Talent Points" we assign now, but that's not the game BioWare chose to design or code. They went "Holy Trinity" with Talent Specs and they put in separate Gear and Talents for PvP. Under the rules they made I want to be able to Heal in PvE and DPS in PvP on my Smuggler every day and I shouldn't be forced to pay Cr 100,000 to do it.

[Deewe]

Dual-spec is as confirmed as a Mac version at this point.

 

Anyway, I have no doubt they are going to cave and add it in for all of the gimme-gamers. But I want to try to mitigate the damage if they do.

 

Give players who stick with their spec longer over time bonuses to some form of progression - experience, legacy, social or valor. The players who switch their spec frequently don't lose a thing and gain the flexibility they always wanted. The players who want to stick with their chosen role can get some perks for playing the right way.

Hi Lethality,

 

 

While I can understand your concern with the dual-specs, you have to take into consideration a few more parameters.

 

• First not everyone is a hardcore gamer and has the time to level alts.
  
• Then not everyone is in guild nor at ease looking for more unknown players to group with.
  
• Also with the same character depending on your mood you might want to PvP, RAID PvE, Group PvE, Solo PvE with the same efficiency.
  
• Dual specs make it so players will need more gear for any characters.
  
• Dual specs will allow players to adjust their group needs on the fly if someone leaves or a role is difficult to fill in.
  

 

I know that BioWare team is divided on the Dual specs and AC respec. For now they are analyzing the data as it's easier to add it later on than because of the *forum rage* remove it after launch.

 

By experience, be it in Wow with dual specs of in Rift with five-specs, not only it does not lower your achievement nor makes your specs role less stellar but it promotes replayability, helps groupability and encourage players to grind more gear and you guessed so say subscribed longer.

 

 

Now would TOR be a sandbox game that would be another story.

[Lethality]

Hmm...

 

I get Daily Flashpoint Quests...

I get Daily Warzone QUests...

 

Maybe BW wanted me to be able to engage in PvP and PvE content every day?

 

If they designed it that way, surely this feature would have been in from the start, no? It would have been a high priority feature, yes? One that would accompany their core design. But it isn't.

 

Besides, they already figure they solved it - you can respec to your heart's content! Just not wherever you stand, and at no cost.

 

Lethality, I noticed you abandoned your own thread on this when logic was used against you. I guess you retreated here for more reinforcements

 

I just got home. Catching up with posts. Stay tuned

 

 

Personally, I'd love it if role were defined by GEAR like it will be in Guild Wars 2. It makes a lot more sense for me if my Trooper equipped:

- A Blaster Pistol, Diagnostic Scanner, and Medikit to Heal

- A Scattergun, Personal Defense Shield, and Reinforced Armor to Tank

- An Assault Cannon, Targeting Assist, and Extra Ammo for Damage Dealing

 

Totally agree, but we're getting more into skill-based design and/or sandbox mentality. I would much rather that. However, we weren't dealt any of those cards in TOR, so we're playing with the hand we got. So I'm trying to make the best of it.

 

 

rather than the silly "Talent Points" we assign now, but that's not the game BioWare chose to design or code. They went "Holy Trinity" with Talent Specs and they put in separate Gear and Talents for PvP. Under the rules they made I want to be able to Heal in PvE and DPS in PvP on my Smuggler every day and I shouldn't be forced to pay Cr 100,000 to do it.

 

I don't think anyone has answered this yet: Would you support free-style talent trees? Dropping points in and out as needed, wherever and whenever? Because if you don't, I need to understand why there's a line between "two" and "as many as we ever want all the time."

[Saber_Six]

Look, regardless of whether you like the idea of dual-spec or not, the practical, in-game effect is this:

 

NO DUAL SPEC = FEWER HEALERS AND TANKS

 

Dual spec is *primarily* an issue that affects healers and tanks.

 

While there are some healers/tanks that are willing to stick with their one spec all the time, there are a lot of people that are annoyed by it.

 

As such, a lot of potential healers and tanks will stay DPS while leveling, and won't be available for healing/tanking.

 

Wait what? No dual spec means fewer tanks and healers but then you go on to claim that dual spec is mainly for tanks and healers.. at least wait until another post before contradicting yourself!!

[Sparckus]

Dual-spec is as confirmed as a Mac version at this point.

 

Anyway, I have no doubt they are going to cave and add it in for all of the gimme-gamers. But I want to try to mitigate the damage if they do.

 

Give players who stick with their spec longer over time bonuses to some form of progression - experience, legacy, social or valor. The players who switch their spec frequently don't lose a thing and gain the flexibility they always wanted. The players who want to stick with their chosen role can get some perks for playing the right way.

 

Couldn't give a toss, as long as they dont gain an advantage in stats or anything that would give an opponent an upper hand in combat. All I want is a PvP spec to switch to for warzones et al (and any other dedicated PvP modes). I couldn't care less if the 2nd spec worked in PvE or not although I will admit it would be nice but again I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

[DaxRendar]

If they designed it that way, surely this feature would have been in from the start, no? It would have been a high priority feature, yes? One that would accompany their core design. But it isn't.

 

No, because the Design Team is likely as divided as the passionate Forums Community is on this

 

As a few people have mentioned, it is much easier to add it Post-Launch than remove it.

 

Totally agree, but we're getting more into skill-based design and/or sandbox mentality. I would much rather that. However, we weren't dealt any of those cards in TOR, so we're playing with the hand we got. So I'm trying to make the best of it.

 

I don't think anyone has answered this yet: Would you support free-style talent trees? Dropping points in and out as needed, wherever and whenever? Because if you don't, I need to understand why there's a line between "two" and "as many as we ever want all the time."

 

I did answer it in your Thread. Guild Wars did support that "free-speccing" and I found it to still be both very immersive and very challenging.

 

BioWare in their design separated both Talents and Gear for PvP/PvE. PvP (especially on PvE Servers) is essentially a "Lobby Game" in addition to the "Main Game" (you could argue that Flashpoints/Operations are the same).

 

I want to be able to enjoy those mini-games. If BioWare implemented Dual Spec as [Warzone Spec] and [Operations Spec] so that those variants were only available in the chosen Content, even with the same somewhat insane Respec Costs we have today, I'd be satisfied.

 

If you were locked into a Spec for the duration of an Op/Warzone I'd be fine too.

 

I understand both sides (wanting Spec Choice to matter/Flexibility when playing with Friends) and if I were Lead Dev I'd try to find an acceptable compromise (assuming I didn't go with a Gear or Skill-based system ) but I do side a bit more with the Dual Spec camp.

 

Build Optimization is already happening making Hybrid Builds generally unacceptable to the Operations Raiders. I haven't done Hard or Nightmare Mode Flashpoints yet as I'm still "enjoying the ride" with all my characters, so I can't say how viable or detrimental having 2 Tanks is in that Content space, but beyond the initial Flashpoints I believe at least 1 Tank and 1 Healer is required. If that is the case, being able to have two Specs is a very nice "quality of life" feature for forming groups.

 

As an aside, where I found the 5 Specs of RIFT to be problematic to the game (no need or desire to level an Alt whatsoever), it is the quality of the leveling experience in SWTOR that makes me want Dual Spec here - I want to be able to level up 1 of each Advanced Class and they only give me 8 Character Slots per Server to work with, so I can't have a DPS and Healing Commando, a DPS and Healing Sage, etc. without having to give up other characters I really want to play!

 

/walloftext

[Lethality]

Hi Lethality,

 

 

While I can understand your concern with the dual-specs, you have to take into consideration a few more parameters.

 

• First not everyone is a hardcore gamer and has the time to level alts.
  
• Then not everyone is in guild nor at ease looking for more unknown players to group with.
  
• Also with the same character depending on your mood you might want to PvP, RAID PvE, Group PvE, Solo PvE with the same efficiency.
  
• Dual specs make it so players will need more gear for any characters.
  
• Dual specs will allow players to adjust their group needs on the fly if someone leaves or a role is difficult to fill in.
  

 

I know that BioWare team is divided on the Dual specs and AC respec. For now they are analyzing the data as it's easier to add it later on than because of the *forum rage* remove it after launch.

 

By experience, be it in Wow with dual specs of in Rift with five-specs, not only it does not lower your achievement nor makes your specs role less stellar but it promotes replayability, helps groupability and encourage players to grind more gear and you guessed so say subscribed longer.

 

 

Now would TOR be a sandbox game that would be another story.

 

Hey Dewee - nice to see some of the 'old guard' still around!

 

I think your point about not everyone being a hardcore gamer is a good one - although probably opposite the way you mean.

 

Most casual players that are just here to have fun (i.e. most players) aren't even in these threads debating it. Heck, they may not even be aware they CAN respec their skills yet. Not because they're dumb, but because they're playing the game as much as we're analyzing it.

 

For them, they would never roll an alt of the same class to do a different thing. They would simply play their existing character as a viable option in any situation. They will raid, quest, pvp and whatever else on the same character with the same spec. I did it for years in WoW as a casual player. Most players do the same. But if for some reason on the occasion they DO want to tweak their spec, they can just visit a Skill Mentor and the cost is minimal or non-existent.

 

For the player that wants to do this all the time, it's a small minority. And the cost is designed to deter it. It's a way for the players to really optimize their gameplay, but it is in no way normal behavior. Heck, remember when Blizzard said most players don't even make it to level cap? Those are players just killing time and having fun - these discussions are far away from where they are. And that's the case with TOR, too. They're not here arm-chair designing, they're just playin'.

 

BioWare is definitely divided on the topic, every interview I've ever done where we've asked about this it has been either very tentative or the opposite answer from the time before. So they are very careful in approaching what they do.

 

That's why I like my suggestion in the other tread to reward those who stick with a spec longer, but not take anything away from those that don't (if they implement instant spec changing.)

 

As for subscribed longer - I don't doubt it. I only hope that isn't the primary motivation behind doing it for BioWare, it should be gameplay first. Any time you make things easier and make players do less to achieve more, it's always going to be popular.

[TheChefCookin]

Yeah I just want to switch pvp and pve

[Lethality]

No, because the Design Team is likely as divided as the passionate Forums Community is on this

 

As a few people have mentioned, it is much easier to add it Post-Launch than remove it.

 

 

 

I did answer it in your Thread. Guild Wars did support that "free-speccing" and I found it to still be both very immersive and very challenging.

 

BioWare in their design separated both Talents and Gear for PvP/PvE. PvP (especially on PvE Servers) is essentially a "Lobby Game" in addition to the "Main Game" (you could argue that Flashpoints/Operations are the same).

 

I want to be able to enjoy those mini-games. If BioWare implemented Dual Spec as [Warzone Spec] and [Operations Spec] so that those variants were only available in the chosen Content, even with the same somewhat insane Respec Costs we have today, I'd be satisfied.

 

If you were locked into a Spec for the duration of an Op/Warzone I'd be fine too.

 

I understand both sides (wanting Spec Choice to matter/Flexibility when playing with Friends) and if I were Lead Dev I'd try to find an acceptable compromise (assuming I didn't go with a Gear or Skill-based system ) but I do side a bit more with the Dual Spec camp.

 

Build Optimization is already happening making Hybrid Builds generally unacceptable to the Operations Raiders. I haven't done Hard or Nightmare Mode Flashpoints yet as I'm still "enjoying the ride" with all my characters, so I can't say how viable or detrimental having 2 Tanks is in that Content space, but beyond the initial Flashpoints I believe at least 1 Tank and 1 Healer is required. If that is the case, being able to have two Specs is a very nice "quality of life" feature for forming groups.

 

As an aside, where I found the 5 Specs of RIFT to be problematic to the game (no need or desire to level an Alt whatsoever), it is the quality of the leveling experience in SWTOR that makes me want Dual Spec here - I want to be able to level up 1 of each Advanced Class and they only give me 8 Character Slots per Server to work with, so I can't have a DPS and Healing Commando, a DPS and Healing Sage, etc. without having to give up other characters I really want to play!

 

/walloftext

 

You're correct in that "it is what it is." I just feel like holding on to at least SOME sacred RPG mantras a bit, and not automatically use WoW as the blueprint for everything, is important. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge WoW fan and think Blizzard did an amazing job - and really defined how some things should be done in the genre. But the reason I don't play it much anymore is because I grew tired of it. The design decisions in TOR that mimic it, and there are a lot of them, already have me tiring here as well. And I don't even have 1 max level character yet.

 

I want TOR to be at least a little different, and if a change like dual-spec was added, I would like for them to see it as an opportunity to do something else with it as well (as suggested in my other thread.) SOMETHING, anything at all.

[DaxRendar]

You're correct in that "it is what it is." I just feel like holding on to at least SOME sacred RPG mantras a bit, and not automatically use WoW as the blueprint for everything, is important...

 

I want TOR to be at least a little different, and if a change like dual-spec was added, I would like for them to see it as an opportunity to do something else with it as well (as suggested in my other thread.) SOMETHING, anything at all.

 

Honestly, for me, just keeping Addons and Damage Meters out of the game would be enough of a difference for me

 

On Topic: Some kind of Legacy Bonus for staying with a spec might be a good idea. It can't be anything game-mechanics related as the people most passionate about this feature are also the most concerned with being "competitive" - but imagine say a whole set of Orange Gear for each Talent Tree that's only achievable after holding the Top Talent in the Tree for a period of time? Maybe special Crew Skill Missions too?

[Lord_DeathSaber]

Having duel spec destroys your option of "choosing" your destiny. This isnt WoW, so why would we want it like it? Stop changing your tree so much and it would cost that. If you want to take so bad make a tank It only takes about 3 weeks to get to 50 so its not that bab >.> Please people dont make this game like wow

[AndiusTheGreat]

So 5 minutes worth of travel and some credits is too much to ask for that kind of flexibility?

 

If someone is looking for a group, you can still very safely answer "yes, I'll respect and be there asap" without wasting barely a moment more than you otherwise would have.

 

I agree that travel isn't too much to ask. In fact I kind of hope that if they do a dual spec it requires you to go back to your ship. Non-force classes will then re-outfit in their cargo bay to change their spec. It changes their currently worn gear to a new set and changes their skill points. The RP behind this would be you are dropping off your medical equipment and switching out for a lighter set of gear that has extra ammo and fancy and a more sophisticated auto-cannon or stealth generator.

 

A jedi/sith would go to their room where they could also switch gear sets while they meditate on a different aspect of the force.

 

Note that if you wanted to use the same gear or parts of the same gear for both specs you could. Its just that you can set the station you meditate/re-outfit at to automatically switch sets for you, and store gear not used in your currently used spec that your other spec uses.

 

Money on the other hand. 100k may be no big deal to a level 50 who sells high grade crafted items and PVPs all the time but for a level 26 or even 35 like myself who really enjoys flashpoints and does them enough (or would do them a lot more if respeccing wasn't such a pain in the butt) that they will reach that 100k easily, the cost of respeccing is simply unaffordable.

 

At the very least the cost should be based on how many skill points you actually have to respec as opposed to how many times you have done it that week. Why should it cost the same to respec 1 or 41 skill points?

[Mortreti]

Ugh, dual speccing is such a dumb idea. All it does is quash interesting hybrid builds because there is no longer any kind of incentive to split your points.

 

I disagree that it discourages grouping- it's the opposite. It forces you out of your clique to pick up new players. Yes, you may have to play with a suboptimal build on occasion. But if you are casual enough that you don't have time to play two characters, you're also casual enough that you don't have to be 100% min/maxxed for everything you are ever exposed to. If you feel that you absolutely cannot pvp or play through a certain encounter without rebuilding your character to be perfectly tailored for it, well, maybe you are just a lousy player. You'd be surprised how much dps a determined healer can put out. And playing with a group that isn't perfectly balanced is quite fun, it makes the game more cerebral because you actually have to innovate and use unique strategies, instead of every encounter playing out the same way.

 

Soloing is a non-argument. You get a companion, so even the sturdiest tank doesn't need to take an hour to kill something. I suppose it's important to remember that you already can respec for any reason you choose, you all just don't like that there is a consequence associated with it. Yet every other decision you make has consequences too, as it should be. Being able to change everything mid-stride takes away all the fun of character development.

 

And the whole "it's my character, so it doesn't affect you," argument is just ludicrous. We share the same world, and it cheapens the game to be able to just throw out all the rules. If quests had an auto-complete button, would you be happy about it? You don't *have* to use it, so why shouldn't I get one?

[Varghjerta]

Most pro dual specc want the dual specc option for convinince without any cost to it.

 

some even feels entitled having it from lv 10 basicly for free.

 

How else can you explain people saying that they should be able to dual specc from early levels on theire first character in a 3 weeks old game and afford it.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Varghjerta

[thecoffeecup]

Ugh, dual speccing is such a dumb idea. All it does is quash interesting hybrid builds because there is no longer any kind of incentive to split your points.

 

I don't understand that argument at all. If anything, it encourages experimenting with builds. You can have fun with your hybrid build in PvP for example, and then switch back to your raid DPS build when you are raiding.

 

Everyone with any real MMO experience knows that your "interesting hybrid builds" aren't raiding material. So that means you're either going to be paying ridiculous amounts of credits to switch when you want to raid, you don't raid, or you won't be pulling your weight in raids.

 

If you feel that you absolutely cannot pvp or play through a certain encounter without rebuilding your character to be perfectly tailored for it, well, maybe you are just a lousy player. You'd be surprised how much dps a determined healer can put out.

Again, in my MMO experience, this is just wrong. If you are missing vital DPS talents, you aren't pulling your weight. Who wants to slow everyone down with their subpar performance?

 

And playing with a group that isn't perfectly balanced is quite fun, it makes the game more cerebral because you actually have to innovate and use unique strategies, instead of every encounter playing out the same way.

Ideally. In reality you're going to hit an enrage timer.

 

Soloing is a non-argument. You get a companion, so even the sturdiest tank doesn't need to take an hour to kill something. I suppose it's important to remember that you already can respec for any reason you choose, you all just don't like that there is a consequence associated with it. Yet every other decision you make has consequences too, as it should be. Being able to change everything mid-stride takes away all the fun of character development.

 

Seems to me you haven't tried all the companions (some of them you're stuck with for many levels). There can be a BIG difference between leveling as a healer, tank or DPS. In my experience, DPS is just so much smoother. Punishing healers and tanks with poor abilities in solo content is an outdated MMO idea that just needs to go away, die and stay dead, because it discourages people from being tanks or healers. But since Bioware apparently aren't going to ditch this idea entirely (companions are a step in the right direction though!), dual specs would help.

 

And the whole "it's my character, so it doesn't affect you," argument is just ludicrous. We share the same world, and it cheapens the game to be able to just throw out all the rules. If quests had an auto-complete button, would you be happy about it? You don't *have* to use it, so why shouldn't I get one?

 

I agree with the first part. It does affect others. From my experience in mostly a positive way. I had a much, much easier time getting into groups when WoW got dual-specs for example. Yeah you are going to run into subpar healers and tanks, but that was always the case.

 

But I am forgetting rule #1337 of MMOs: If something's not a chore, it's easy mode and only for bad players.

 

PS: I've used dual specs a lot in WoW. It made me a better player. It increased quality of life (quality of play?). It made it much easier for us to make groups in-guild. I wasn't forced into any role I didn't want. I really, really don't see why you wouldn't learn from one of the good things in WoW when SWTOR is already so blatantly "inspired" by it.

Edited January 8, 2012 by thecoffeecup

[Lethality]

I don't understand that argument at all. If anything, it encourages experimenting with builds. You can have fun with your hybrid build in PvP for example, and then switch back to your raid DPS build when you are raiding.

 

Everyone with any real MMO experience knows that your "interesting hybrid builds" aren't raiding material. So that means you're either going to be paying ridiculous amounts of credits to switch when you want to raid, you don't raid, or you won't be pulling your weight in raids.

 

That goes back to the game design. BioWare stated that their intent is to make all builds viable, and for the most part they really are. However, if you have the incessant need to optimize your character every hour depending on the task you're doing, then you should definitely have to jump through some hoops to do so.

 

Also, you want build experimentation? I suggest an "arena" instance somewhere on the fleet where you can enter, and while you're in there your skill tree is completely open and free to do whatever you like with no cost. Think of it as a deluxe target dummy where you can not only work on your rotation and gearing, but test skill builds as well.

 

 

Again, in my MMO experience, this is just wrong. If you are missing vital DPS talents, you aren't pulling your weight. Who wants to slow everyone down with their subpar performance?

 

Again, there's a difference between optimal and viable. Viable is, surprise: viable! Instead, yo should be asking for combat logs to analyze players performance, not different specs.

 

 

Ideally. In reality you're going to hit an enrage timer.

 

If the game is designed as they promised, then all "viable" options will be... viable! And as long as the players execute, the enrage timer won't be an issue. Besides, you know how gear progression works right? Each week you (and the rest of your raid) gets new gear that makes each fight incrementally easier. Regardless of "spec".

 

 

Seems to me you haven't tried all the companions (some of them you're stuck with for many levels). There can be a BIG difference between leveling as a healer, tank or DPS. In my experience, DPS is just so much smoother. Punishing healers and tanks with poor abilities in solo content is an outdated MMO idea that just needs to go away, die and stay dead, because it discourages people from being tanks or healers. But since Bioware apparently aren't going to ditch this idea entirely (companions are a step in the right direction though!), dual specs would help.

 

Companions are terrible on nearly every level, but since they're here we have to deal with them. But they're not part of the end game. Where optimization occurs and might matter.

 

PS: I've used dual specs a lot in WoW. It made me a better player. It increased quality of life (quality of play?). It made it much easier for us to make groups in-guild. I wasn't forced into any role I didn't want. I really, really don't see why you wouldn't learn from one of the good things in WoW when SWTOR is already so blatantly "inspired" by it.

 

You are ignoring the fact that nearly any spec is viable... it's a very, very small percentage of players that obsess over making it optimal for every task. For the players that do, BioWare already provides you with a path. Case closed.

[Varghjerta]

Seems to me you haven't tried all the companions (some of them you're stuck with for many levels). There can be a BIG difference between leveling as a healer, tank or DPS. In my experience, DPS is just so much smoother. Punishing healers and tanks with poor abilities in solo content is an outdated MMO idea that just needs to go away, die and stay dead, because it discourages people from being tanks or healers. But since Bioware apparently aren't going to ditch this idea entirely (companions are a step in the right direction though!), dual specs would help.

 

 

 

 

But then the question becomes should tanks and healers do the same dps and a dps specced players in the game?.

 

Tanks and Healers do actually have great solobilty but that isnt enough for some people aslong as some other specc/class can do some things faster,

 

So instead some people do use the martyr card thanks to they say " i do play dps but i can sacrifice myself to play a tank and healer for the better of my group which just means they want easy acess and have it all without any cost attached"

 

What is it with people that want every specc/class should be totally equal and if some do level do more dps because they are specced for damage then a healer/tanking specced character it ia unfair everyone disregarding specc should be able to do everything the same

Then they use that as theire point everyone should be using dual specc..........

And thenDps complain that they cant get groups as fast as tanks and healers

Edited January 8, 2012 by Varghjerta

[thecoffeecup]

Lethality:

 

The arena instance idea is great. The idea was floating around in WoW as well but was never implemented. Hope it happens somewhere at some point.

 

Anyway, you say that people shouldn't need to optimize everything. However, I don't want to drag everyone down because I can't decide between the builds. And when people are doing hard modes, guess what, they rely on optimization. Not everything will be accepted by people who are serious about PvE content, nor should it be. It is plain as day that you'll be asked to respec or stay home with your hybrid build.

 

It is a nice thought that everything could be equally viable. I just don't think it's realistic at all.

 

Again I'd also like to know what dual specs ruin for you? They help a lot of people a great deal. I see a lot of comments here saying it makes things too easy. This is rule #1337 at work. If it doesn't feel like hard work, you didn't earn it. People asking for dual specs aren't asking for quests to autocomplete or anything like that (what an argument against dual-specs that was!), they simply want to have a little bit of flexibility in how they play.

[pikasdehoy]

Hey everyone,

I'd like to weigh in on the Dual Spec debate...I'm glad to see that some of the later posts were not filled with insults...I ended up reading about 40 pages of posts (not really sure why I did that ultimately) and it was...heated.

 

Some posts earlier seemed to give the impression that Pro dual spec means pro advanced spec changing...that that is absolutely not what we are talking about. Advanced class is not only one of the important choices we make, but essentially the same as choosing your actual class in any other game.

 

I am for Dual Spec for the following reasons, organized into sections:

 

The basic gameplay perspective:

Respecs are already available in the game, so what exactly is dual spec adding? Basically saving time and potentially credits (which will be the next section). Saving time because you don't have to travel back to the fleet everytime you want to respec, and saving time because you don't have to reorganize your bars. Some people feel that this cheapens the game or makes it "easier." I would not consider reorganizing my bars or travelling to the fleet "difficult," just time consuming and tedious. There are many times where I am out on a planet and want to pitch in for a heroic mission group but am not the right spec for the group that is looking. And I'm sure we've all been in situations where there are groups looking for just that one tank, but all you can find are healers and dps. These are all things that make the game suck up more unnecessary time. Dual specs I believe is a viable solution to these problems.

 

The credits issue:

There's a lot of talk going on about the price of respecs and dual speccing. A lot are assuming it would be free. I don't think it would be fair if it was just completely free. I will reference WoW for this... When dual specs came out in that game, it cost 1000 gold, which wasn't nothing, but wasn't completely breaking the bank. It was about a quarter of the super fastest flying mount training, and could be fairly easily attained by players of the highest level with some diligent farming. The point I'm trying to make is that it definitely shouldn't be free, but in the long run if you do decide to switch specs a lot it will likely save you some money.

 

The PVP issue:

PVP is not an issue for some, and a big big issue for others. I think that this is one of the most crucial sections because PVP loving players would likely benefit the most because they'd be able to do PVP and still group up with their friends and do flashpoints in another spec. Anyone who PVPs often knows that, yes you CAN PVP in a PVE spec...but that doesn't mean that you will have intended skills and talents quite honed like you would with a true PVP spec. For example, on my Jedi Sentinel, I may be able to get a little more PVE dps by switching 2 points from my talent that puts an immobilize on my Master Strike ability to something else, but I'm going to definitely want that for PVP. Even more to the point, I'd probably want a completely different tree because I feel really comfortable using some abilities and trees for PVE, while doing a completely different playstyle while PVPing. Some people have said "tough luck, if you want to PVP, then just level up through PVP," but that is basically telling someone to take 95% of this game and shove it out the window. PVPers and PVEers shouldn't be separated...they should both unite in one and be able to be both, but still at their best when they do play.

 

Dual specs cause players to be worse?:

I think that this is a rumor that has some basis in logic. However, I still disagree with it. The proposed theory is that if someone has access to two specs, then they'll be worse because they will be using one spec when they do flashpoints, and the other while doing missions as opposed to just sticking to the one single spec when doing both. The most common example I believe was healing in flashpoints, dpsing in missions. Look at it from another perspective: What if a person DPS's all his life but really wants to heal? This person chose to DPS 10-50, then respec'd at max level. Now he's a really terrible healer because he's gone from level 10 to 50 barely even pressing that Medical Probe hotkey. The alternative with dual specs *could* go like this: The player is now free to heal any instance he or she wants to from level 10. Now the player is actually healing every flashpoint, starting with the easy stuff like Esseles, all the way to the top. The player could be gaining more experience healing because the option to heal is actually readily available! But would he be a better healer if he was always a healer, even while doing missions? Maybe...but do regular missions really test the limits of our abilities? Especially in healing? I'm leveling a healer, and it's really fun (as a healer) but I'm spending most of my time doing damage...I've learned how to really heal by healing flashpoints because those situations actually call for heals. The same goes for tanking: Tanks aren't working hard to hold aggro against their companions (at least by comparison to other players) so are they really learning that much in the mission world? I think that dual specs isn't the cause for bad players...bad players will always exist with or without dual specs.

 

The RP issue (trooper/smuggler/sith counterparts):

This is actually one of my favorite points. People say that you have to make choices in a game, and once you make that choice, you need to stick with it. While I respect the ideology, MMOs need to have some room for flexibility and making mistakes. The respec trainer still exists...so ultimately any choice you make CAN be changed already. And as for the actual lore perspective? It's been said many times that the trooper and smuggler (and their sith counterparts) could easily change gear to fit the situation. In fact it would be tactically unsound for a trooper to be like "Well, I have the ability to be a medic, and my group really needs a medic, but I made the decision to have this gravity addon to my gun so I'd better just stick to that..." Would it make sense that they could switch up their armor in the field without going back to their ship? Actually, yes! At level 48 all Smugglers learn an ability to call their ship to drop explosives on enemies! So...would it be that much of a stretch to call in a care package from your companions? You definitely couldn't change specs in combat because it would take time to receive the package and switch out all your gear...but assuming you were in a safe place I think it would be more than justified for an RPer. Plus, how cool would it be if you had a 10 second cast for switching specs, and a massive crate falls down and you switch out your gear?

 

The RP issue cont. (Jedi):

Now not much has been said for the Jedi RP for dual specs, and here's what I came up with. It really isn't THAT much of a stretch for Jedi to suddenly change their abilities in the field because you can basically already do that. Jedi guardians have different stances, one for tanking, one for basic all around combat, and one for dot damage (I'm not that familiar with the guardians because I have a sentinel, but I think that's right...). They can switch these between these instantly already, and you gain pretty significant stat changes with each. For the Jedi Shadow, it's the same thing...combat and shadow techniques are obviously completely different, one makes you a stealth guy, and one makes you a super light armor tank! I feel that through enough meditation, a Jedi would be able to refocus his power to another type, whether that be tank, dps, or healer. Jedi Sage doesn't have stances, but is already able to use the vast majority of the abilities. Any sage can heal, cast disturbance, and throw rocks at people. Through meditation, I think it would be safe to say that a Sage could again, focus his or her abilities till they felt prepared to do what the task demands. And besides... Is having a 20 second conversation with a random alien who knows nothing of what you do (normal skill reset trainer) really that much better?

 

Alternate solution proposed: Roll alts:

A few people have said "if you want to heal, roll a healer, if you want to dps, roll a dps...etc" And then they go on to say roll another character for each type. This is an interesting alternative which would be EXTREMELY time consuming. Here's some flaws in the plan: Let's say I want to have a Jedi Sage who can heal, one who can dps, and one who can Balance PVP. That's 3 sages...1 advanced class 3 characters rolled. Granted, with a dual spec I couldn't do everything, but hey it's better than single spec. Now that I've got 3 spots taken...How the heck am I going to experience all of the other classes? There are 8 spots per server. Assuming you didn't' want to have to make characters on another server (because all of your friends probably play on the server you've chosen), you only have enough slots to make 1 of each advanced class. Yes...there's no room for doubling up, and especially not tripling up. Not to mention that playing the exact same character story line over again is not as fun as playing a completely different class storyline. You could play a a different class with a healing spec vs your first class with a dps spec...but what about gear? You've got a level 50 character (let's say a Sage again) with all your awesome gear...should that all go to waste just because you want to heal from time to time? Roll another character and you don't just start over with the levels, you start over EVERYTHING. You really like the way your character looks? Well...you're gonna have to re-earn that gear. Really like that name you chose? Sorry, you took it already, your second one will just have to be named something else. People get attached to their characters and want to see them do more than just one role.

 

Hybridization diminished by dual specs:

There have been some points claiming that hybridization would be diminished by Dual specs. The only reason hybridization would ever be destroyed would be from the Devs. I'm not sure if the proposed ideas would be like...a group would have a healer that doesn't heal THAT well, but can totally do some extra damage? Or a tank that takes extra damage, but can really dish out the threat? Well those things can still exist...A Dual spec just gives the player more options to choose. Let's say you have your fun hybrid spec which is totally awesome in some situations, and you've got your min/max build for hardcore raiding. Well...now you have both at the same time? Any player who would be the type who is going to get that dual spec right away and make two builds that are min/max is probably going to have a min/max build already in their solo spec. Dual specs would allow people to keep their hybrid spec that they can use in fun situations, and have their min/max build when they need it for more hardcore gameplay.

 

Leveling with dual specs (grouping):

Another proposed alternative to dual specs (and keeping your less than ideal missioning spec) was to ALWAYS group up (because we all have friends) and that companions fill in any gaps. Grouping up is always great...but people all have different schedules. Even if you were able to sit down and play with friends every week on the same day, that doesn't mean you're all going to be on the same missions and even planets. I've got friends who play this game where I live, across the country, in the middle of the country, and we very rarely are ALL on (all 6 of us). If I joined a huge guild, maybe I'd be able to play with someone on a fairly regular basis, but nothing is ever guaranteed in a situation like that. People need to be able to be ready for solo play and group play, and often times that calls for different specs.

 

Leveling with dual specs (companions filling in the gaps for healers & tanks):

Companions definitely do make it easier to do missions for tanks and healers, and of course it would completely suck without them. However, sometimes people just need a change of pace. I leveled a sentinel first and stuck with the same spec the entire time. But I would have been darn happy to switch it up every now and then just to check out the other trees and not feel like I was racking up some charges just to experiment. Another example, I have been leveling my sage up and decided to switch my specialization from healing to telekinetics DPS. I didn't like it very much (for missions anyways). I switched back and now I've got 2 respecs to my name with basically one lesson learned, that being that I don't like low level telekinetics. And all the while traveling from Tatooine to the fleet and back.

 

Cheapening the game with dual specs?:

There's a lot of things that can cheapen a game, and I think that dual specs is not one of them. First of all, Dual specs NEEDS to have inherent limitations so it doesn't cheapen the game: Casting time, loss of resources, potentially a CD, maybe even a special (but accessible) location. The first two were in WoW and I felt it was balanced enough. Keep in mind that the only thing dual specs would do is cut time and potentially costs. There's other things in this game that exist to cut time that don't make perfect sense. You don't have to navigate your ship through space to get somewhere...you click a thing and it takes you there instantly (there is an animation, but you can immediately go to the door and click it anyways). If someone is in your party, and interacts with a mission NPC, you can holocall many of them...does that cheapen the game because YOU didn't have to run there yourself? I don't think so. It's simply a time saving feature. Which is exactly what Dual specs is...a system that would save your hotkeys and skill trees, and not forcing you to ditch whatever you're doing and fly across the galaxy in order to do it. Another feature that people don't seem to really mind...the Map tells you exactly where mission items and mobs are. Does that cheapen the game because you don't have to look through an entire map for the right types of "Justicar Forces?" I don't think so. That doesn't make the game "easier." It makes the game less time consuming and tedious.

 

Well...That pretty much sums up most of my thoughts about Dual specs. There's other crap I had in mind at some point, but I think I've ranted enough for one evening... I sincerely hope Bioware goes with their original plans to implement the system.

 

Good hunting, and may the force be with all of you...

[AlteredTomorrow]

Adding my voice that I want and support the addition of a dual-spec system, it's not right to punish players for changing roles to group or help their friends.

 

Adding this doesn't make it "WoW 2" many MMOs are adding this system now, it just makes sense.

Edited January 8, 2012 by AlteredTomorrow

[SlickDevlan]

I don't understand that argument at all. If anything, it encourages experimenting with builds. You can have fun with your hybrid build in PvP for example, and then switch back to your raid DPS build when you are raiding.

 

Everyone with any real MMO experience knows that your "interesting hybrid builds" aren't raiding material. So that means you're either going to be paying ridiculous amounts of credits to switch when you want to raid, you don't raid, or you won't be pulling your weight in raids.

 

 

Again, in my MMO experience, this is just wrong. If you are missing vital DPS talents, you aren't pulling your weight. Who wants to slow everyone down with their subpar performance?

 

 

Ideally. In reality you're going to hit an enrage timer.

 

 

 

Seems to me you haven't tried all the companions (some of them you're stuck with for many levels). There can be a BIG difference between leveling as a healer, tank or DPS. In my experience, DPS is just so much smoother. Punishing healers and tanks with poor abilities in solo content is an outdated MMO idea that just needs to go away, die and stay dead, because it discourages people from being tanks or healers. But since Bioware apparently aren't going to ditch this idea entirely (companions are a step in the right direction though!), dual specs would help.

 

 

 

I agree with the first part. It does affect others. From my experience in mostly a positive way. I had a much, much easier time getting into groups when WoW got dual-specs for example. Yeah you are going to run into subpar healers and tanks, but that was always the case.

 

But I am forgetting rule #1337 of MMOs: If something's not a chore, it's easy mode and only for bad players.

 

PS: I've used dual specs a lot in WoW. It made me a better player. It increased quality of life (quality of play?). It made it much easier for us to make groups in-guild. I wasn't forced into any role I didn't want. I really, really don't see why you wouldn't learn from one of the good things in WoW when SWTOR is already so blatantly "inspired" by it.

 

You can "play" with hybrid builds right now. The difference is, they are encouraging you to stick with the one you actually want to play.

 

And, just as an aside, everytime someone says "quality of life" God kills a kitten. Its not a QoL issue, its a crutch. If it wasn't, you wouldn't see the almost religious chants that we "need" it.

[thecoffeecup]

And, just as an aside, everytime someone says "quality of life" God kills a kitten. Its not a QoL issue, its a crutch. If it wasn't, you wouldn't see the almost religious chants that we "need" it.

 

Nobody needs dual specs (I never said they were an absolute necessity), but it would make the game more fun for a lot of us. That's why it's a quality of life issue. The semantics really aren't important anyway. Forget I said quality of life if that exact term bothers you

 

Yeah you can call it a crutch. A crutch that lets me avoid wasting my precious free time grinding cash for respecs. I like healing in groups. I hate healing solo or in PvP. Is that really such a crime? Note that I am not asking to be able to switch AC or anything.

Edited January 8, 2012 by thecoffeecup

[Sendrel]

And, just as an aside, everytime someone says "quality of life" God kills a kitten. Its not a QoL issue, its a crutch. If it wasn't, you wouldn't see the almost religious chants that we "need" it.

 

Why the desperate attempt to focus the argument on semantics?

[Suzina]

I do not want dual spec.