Damage Parsing? Recount? Assassins > Shadows?

[Lawconis]

With the debate going with multiple class casting animation issues...has anyone looked into damage parsing?

 

With the Project animation backloading vs. Shock fronloading, is there any REAL data to show they are equal? Please don't give me armchair theories. I would like to see a chart if possible pls.

 

Thanks,

Law

[MiraBindo]

there are no parses, because there is no combat log to parse. thank god.

 

Seriously, you're doing the same amount of damage over the same GCD, frontload or backload doesnt matter over time since it's the same damage per GCD.

 

The ONLY time it matters is if both you and the enemy are low health, and you release a project at the last moment, and both you and the enemy die.

 

I agree that the delay should be equal, but i dont see it as this HUGE deal that people are making it up to be.

[aarka]

Just talking dps.. No theory needed unless the animation is longer than the global cooldown. Which it isn't.

 

Yes, in PvP there are differences with travel time. Shadow is more burst (project - breach will hit at about the same time) but assassin will not have travel time. For sustained dps or in PvE there isn't an issue at all. Both abilities are still instant casts.

Edited January 5, 2012 by aarka

[Lawconis]

EVEN with the Upheavel vs Chain Shock talent?

[Jeckll]

I don't see this being such an incredible issue. I pretty much enjoy the triple crit provided by Project/Upheaval/Force Breach and it feels kind of instant

 

This hole matter may ONLY matter in an direct 1on1 engagement between assassin and shadow and even then, it's not an issue in most cases.

 

It this is the most annoying thing for shadows, our class is pretty damn good.

[kkwZero]

The ONLY time it matters is if both you and the enemy are low health, and you release a project at the last moment, and both you and the enemy die.

 

And this ist a huge problem in pvp because it turns a win into a draw and can can change the outcome of the whole pvp scenario, think hutball, think bomb planting/defusing, think capturing a canon.

 

And it happens a lot, belive me i do a lot of pvp.

[Jeckll]

Nope it doesn't. Valor Rank 48 here.

In fact, 1on1 situations in Huttball are also pretty rare

You might be higher but I don't think the next levels will change a lot ^^

[Lawconis]

And this ist a huge problem in pvp because it turns a win into a draw and can can change the outcome of the whole pvp scenario, think hutball, think bomb planting/defusing, think capturing a canon.

 

And it happens a lot, belive me i do a lot of pvp.

 

I agree here, 1v1 skirmishes happen alot. And it isn't just shadows vs assassins.

 

Its Sages vs. Sorceres. It's Bounty Hunters vs. Troopers.

 

Thats like 25% of your team at a disadvantage.

 

Not fair.

[Okovango]

I dont think that this makes much of a diffrence, the only time this will happen is when its 1 on 1 shadow vs sage. This will not happen in PvE and to me it sounds like it would be a rare occurance in PvP. Not only do you have to be up against an assasain alone, but you also have to both have the same amount of low health for it to really matter.

This definatly isnt gonna make me want to reroll, so whats the point of complaining about it? Also I agree with Jeckll if all we have to complain about is .7 seconds of animation then Shadows are pretty awesome.

[richardya]

Seriously, you're doing the same amount of damage over the same GCD, frontload or backload doesnt matter over time since it's the same damage per GCD.

 

The ONLY time it matters is if both you and the enemy are low health, and you release a project at the last moment, and both you and the enemy die.

 

I agree that the delay should be equal, but i dont see it as this HUGE deal that people are making it up to be.

 

I think there are other abilities that are off the GCD. So it affects those as well. They can theoretically finish casting abilities off the GCD before you finish casting your first ability if the 2nd ability is an instant cast. True? Or can we start the 2nd ability at the same time, do we need to wait the .7 b4 casting next ability?

Edited January 5, 2012 by richardya

[madmilitia]

there are no parses, because there is no combat log to parse. thank god.

 

Seriously, you're doing the same amount of damage over the same GCD, frontload or backload doesnt matter over time since it's the same damage per GCD.

 

The ONLY time it matters is if both you and the enemy are low health, and you release a project at the last moment, and both you and the enemy die.

 

I agree that the delay should be equal, but i dont see it as this HUGE deal that people are making it up to be.

 

ther has to be a combat log somewhere because Warzones record the damage you do and give you your DPS.

[Speno]

There is no combat log and parser so that every class will be included in game content. It wont go down to Hey you shadow your not doing 1500dps or hey sage your not having 3000hps. This game is about team work, damage parsers destroy that and only give elite and hardcore players first rights alot of times.

[Dietyz]

There is no combat log and parser so that every class will be included in game content. It wont go down to Hey you shadow your not doing 1500dps or hey sage your not having 3000hps. This game is about team work, damage parsers destroy that and only give elite and hardcore players first rights alot of times.

 

When my guild recruits new players we take them to an elite mob and they have to kill it in a certain time limit otherwise their dps is too low

 

Im sure other guilds will develop their own tactics to root out the bads

[TheCynic]

ther has to be a combat log somewhere because Warzones record the damage you do and give you your DPS.

 

That's all server side though.

 

A log file is a text file that sits on your own machine. Then you get a parsing program to read that file and output the relevant data.

 

Since there is no way to save a log file locally, there is nothing to parse......unless you just wana capture data packets and break the EULA

[VanorDM]

Since there is no way to save a log file locally, there is nothing to parse......unless you just wana capture data packets and break the EULA

 

They plan on adding in combat logs so you'll start to see ways of parsing DPS.

[madmilitia]

There is no combat log and parser so that every class will be included in game content. It wont go down to Hey you shadow your not doing 1500dps or hey sage your not having 3000hps. This game is about team work, damage parsers destroy that and only give elite and hardcore players first rights alot of times.

 

and what is wrong with that? we had 2 DPS in our EV the other night that we felt weren't good dps as the mind traps took for ever to kill.

 

but we had no way to prove it so we had no justification to replace them other then a hunch.

 

our hunch was right cause after 4 hours of whiping we called it, just to go in there the next day with 2 other dps and easily accomplished the fight on the first try.

 

my two main reasons for wanting a DPS log

 

A when i get massive hit in PVP i want to know how or what hit me,

b in pve when the tank dies is it because the healers didn;t heal or is it cause the tank is squishy because he stacked willpower over endurance?

 

well three i guess

 

i want to make sure i am doing the most dmg i can.

 

the only reason not to want dmg meters is because you are a bad dps player that wants to be carried and your worried that comabt logs will put you right back to where you were in WoW with the scrubs.

[Tyrandaa]

They will eventually add combat logs and then combat parsing will follow. Even if it's a third party parser like World of Logs or real-time combat parser like RIFT Junkies Combat Parser.

 

When it comes to Heroic/Nightmare content, we'll definitely want these. All the team work in the world won't matter when you're dying to hard enrages at 20%. Guilds/Groups will need to know who the weak links are so they can progress. This will give these players the opportunity to improve themselves as well. If people don't care enough to maximize the potential of their characters, they have no business doing content that requires players to push their abilities to the limits.

 

Let’s do some hypothetical brain work. (All these numbers are made up.)

 

We’re going to work with a boss who has a 5 minute enrage (for clarity’s sake, he’ll 1-shot everyone at this point). He has 1.9 million health. This REQUIRES an overall group DPS of 6333. You could conceivably squeak by with something like 6200 and kite him for a little bit after he kills the tank.

 

A tank should be doing 1500 DPS. DPS classes should be doing 2500. Healers should just be healing.

 

This is 6500 overall DPS, and your group should be able to meet this enrage. But let’s say you have 2 DPS who aren’t at the top of their game. One under-geared player is doing 2000 DPS and the other is well-geared but wears a foam helmet and is doing 1200 DPS. Now your overall group DPS 4700. This means the boss will be at ~26% health every time he enrages. There’s no way you can kite that and kill it. There’s no way to know definitively who needs to improve. All the “team work” in the world isn’t going to magically add 1600 DPS to your group. Maybe the 1200 DPSer isn’t brain dead, and would be far better if he/she could analyze his/her DPS if given the opportunity to view hard data and not theoretical numbers.

 

Personally, I would much rather be able to view a log to see why exactly my group’s DPS was low than port back to the Republic Fleet without knowing for sure whether or not the group’s short-comings were at all my fault.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Tyrandaa

[Lawconis]

/bump for awareness

[jglubin]

To get back on topic of the original post...

 

I'm not really sure what the difference is between the two abilities, I understand that theirs will hit first, but ours will still hit. I've seen people say that we're under powered compared to the Assassins because of the Animation of project, that there's a 2 second animation, or some bull like that. Last time I checked, you didn't need to wait for the animation to finish, you just have to wait for the GCD/cast time to finish.

 

At the end of the day, I don't see this making a difference, if anything I think it gives us somewhat of an advantage TBH. Look at it this way - You're up against a healer, you pop all your CDs and you use your strongest project and force breach possible, they're going to hit the healer at roughly the same time, giving the healer more to recover from. Whereas an assassin, hits a healer with the lightning, goes on GCD, the healer can heal through the lightning, then uses their version of force breach.

 

IMO we have the advantage because of that, and in a PvE situation it will literally make no difference....

[Xenogearsfn]

There is no combat log and parser so that every class will be included in game content. It wont go down to Hey you shadow your not doing 1500dps or hey sage your not having 3000hps. This game is about team work, damage parsers destroy that and only give elite and hardcore players first rights alot of times.

 

Played a lot of MMO's and any good MMO won't have a huge disparity between DPS classes. Even back in the day when WoW had a noticeable difference between DPS specs/classes they weren't enough to make people drop you from a group due to your class.

 

If people are well below the threshold they should be able to uphold for the level/content they are in they deserve to be dropped from a group.

[Lawconis]

The concern is that t makes a difference in both PvE and PvP.

 

For PvE: Project takes .8 longer to do its dmg. In this time the Rancor takes a chunk out of your leg before it dies. Shock kills the Rancor inside that .8 window and you never take damage.

 

Particle Accerlation: The buff can fall off as the rock is in mid-flight. Causing your Project not to critically hit. Worse, if you cast it at the bonus range, the rock poofs as it is flying as the buff falls off before it hits the target.

 

In pvp: The buff problem occurs AND, in even fights an assassin will instant hit you whereas the rock has to fly. When you die the rocks poofs, where it should have been a draw the assassin walks away.

 

In Warzones it could be the last tick of dmg before they score in Hutt, capture a turret, or plant a bomb.

 

.8 is almost a whole Global Cool Down. So yes, sometimes we can blackload the dmg, but ...that gives them, or their team time to get off a heal, stim, buff, vanish, etc, etc, etc...

[Bangard]

my two main reasons for wanting a DPS log

 

A when i get massive hit in PVP i want to know how or what hit me,

b in pve when the tank dies is it because the healers didn;t heal or is it cause the tank is squishy because he stacked willpower over endurance?

 

well three i guess

 

i want to make sure i am doing the most dmg i can.

 

the only reason not to want dmg meters is because you are a bad dps player that wants to be carried and your worried that comabt logs will put you right back to where you were in WoW with the scrubs.

 

 

^ The only part of this post that I feel I should reply to.

A - Fair enough I suppose...

B - Things get interesting here. In the last paragraph of your post, you state that people don't want Damage Meters because 'you are a bad player that wants to be carried and in WoW you were a scrub'. This, coming from someone who doesn't realize that 'Squishy Tanks' are nothing to do with Endurance. Defense, shield and absorb are quite clearly what makes a tank less squishy. If I have 18k health, taking 4k damage every second, will an extra 1k health potentially make me survive longer without healing? Perhaps. But if I increased my Defense, Shield and Absorb increase my survivability far more in the long run than stamina stacking? Yes. Let me guess, you were the kind of person in WoW who played a Warrior tank and stacked Stamina. Guess what, you were doing it wrong. You have no right to call anyone a scrub if you think stacking Endurance really makes a great difference to someone's survivability. In the long run, the healer still has to heal the same amount of damage. Endurance just gives you an extra, perhaps, half a second to get the heal off.

 

Now, I know there isn't a choice between Endurance and the Defensive stats. But even so, if you were going to die with 18k health + a decent level of defense / shield / absorb, you were going to die with 19k health and the same level of defense / shield / absorb. Willpower also increases the tanks DPS, thus threat (Allowing the other DPS to DPS freely without agro issues). This also reduces the time the boss takes to die, meaning the healers don't have to heal for as much as they would if you stacked Endurance over Willpower, and lacked that extra DPS.

 

On the last point, that's the only real reason I would be happy about a damage meter. Well, that and a death log to make sure I'm doing fights correctly.

 

But back to the point I'm trying to make. Calling people names while stating something obviously flawed = A bit hypocritical. It's not nice and it makes yourself look worse.

 

Onto the discussion at hand - The only real difference I see in a PvE point of view is if the mob died as project was heading towards him. You may have got that extra hit in as an Assassin. On the PvP side, more than enough people have written something to help you in that department.

[Okovango]

The concern is that t makes a difference in both PvE and PvP.

 

For PvE: Project takes .8 longer to do its dmg. In this time the Rancor takes a chunk out of your leg before it dies. Shock kills the Rancor inside that .8 window and you never take damage.

 

Particle Accerlation: The buff can fall off as the rock is in mid-flight. Causing your Project not to critically hit. Worse, if you cast it at the bonus range, the rock poofs as it is flying as the buff falls off before it hits the target.

 

In pvp: The buff problem occurs AND, in even fights an assassin will instant hit you whereas the rock has to fly. When you die the rocks poofs, where it should have been a draw the assassin walks away.

 

In Warzones it could be the last tick of dmg before they score in Hutt, capture a turret, or plant a bomb.

 

.8 is almost a whole Global Cool Down. So yes, sometimes we can blackload the dmg, but ...that gives them, or their team time to get off a heal, stim, buff, vanish, etc, etc, etc...

 

Actually the rock hits no matter what, even if you die the rock hits, thatsthe thing its equal because as soon as you cast project its done, it may take .7 seconds more (it takes .8 seconds total but shock is .1 seconds) but thats just for the animation, but even while the animation is running your not restricted, you can cast another ability and have it hit right then. So technically there really isnt much of a disadvantage.

[Lawconis]

I guess we have to agree to disagree on the pvp matter. If a project fails to crit due to mid-flight buff wearing off that's not fair. If a 30m range falls short due to .8 delay and a buff falls off, not fair.

 

If they capture a node, score, or run out of range, get healed, or some cooldown procs because of a .8 delay, not fair.

 

Not fair.

[Okovango]

I completley agree with almost all of what you said, i had never thought about it before, whereas what you said about runnign ot of range and such isnt true. Like i said before, one you press the button its going to hit no matter what. But you bring up a very valid point(lol u actually just made me mad at this whole topic again because i now realize it ISNT fair) because in that short amount of time, those people could accomplish something. Like you said they could run over a line or kill someone in those .8 seconds, they'll end up dead afterwards but i dont think that would matter to them if they got done what they needed too. lol now im frustrated again why'd you have to say that lol.