Why are we never the squeaky wheel?

[Darth_Slaine]

I'm tired of people who prefer other gameplay styles telling me that I'm not as important as they are, that I should just go and sit in the corner and play with my cardboard-box until such time as everyone else has everything else they want. But I'm even more tired of hearing the same coming from members of our own community. If you genuinely don't think our style of gameplay is worth any dev attention, that's your choice, but stop telling those of us who do to stop trying, and stop acting like you're better than us because you're happy with being considered second-class.

 

I don't see myself as second-class because I consider myself a player and not separate from the rest of the gaming community. My playstyle is RP, but that does not mean I am playing a separate game from PVPers or PVEers.

 

Classes being balanced, bugs being fixed and options being added only improve my gameplay.

 

I'd go out on a limb and say that Bioware hasn't told you that you or other RPers are second class citizens. Any feeling of inferiority would be yours to work out... not theirs.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Meluna

[Hrisskar]

I would like to see chat bubbles and sitting. For me the chat bubbles are a nice to have, but sitting seems really bizarre that so few chairs especially in social areas have the feature.

 

The lack of chat bubbles isn't a problem for me. If it was implemented, that's great, but I can live without it all the same. However, sitting is definitely a list-topper when it comes to gripes and grievances. There are so many chairs and benches in the game, and I know that players who don't particularly care for roleplay also appreciate little gimmicks like being able to use the chairs. It's a win-win decision for Bioware.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Hrisskar

[Zavia]

What specific things would you want to see put in the game to enchance RP?

 

- Chat bubbles

- Sitting

- ...

 

I would like to see chat bubbles and sitting. For me the chat bubbles are a nice to have, but sitting seems really bizarre that so few chairs especially in social areas have the feature.

 

I could maybe see a feature that allows you to put in your back story for other people to read when they inspect you since there aren't mods in this game.

 

Frankly though, this is pie in the sky stuff when there are so many bugs. Have you seen the issue that causes everyone's eyes to disappear in a conversation? Creepy!

 

 

Out of respect for the OP, this is the question at hand: "Why are we so unwilling to take a stand for our own interests in the only way which has ever been shown to work? "

 

If you want to go through and have us list what we'd like to see added to the game I believe there is a thread on that already, but I appreciate the idea.

 

Devs prioritize their lists for what goes in the game. If it's a bug it should go to the top of the list, but if you've noticed, not everything in the patches are bug fixes, and that's most generally the case except in extreme instances.

 

A lot of content (probably most) is added because players ask for it, and often ask very loudly. RPers might chirp every now and then but other than that we really don't say much and as a result we don't get much. That is the point, as I understand it, of this thread.

 

It's my position that it doesn't have to be that way. It's not a pie in the sky for us to raise our voices and ask for something RP specific when PvPers get an entire planet and patches directed just at PvP.

 

And why do they get those things? Because they speak up and get Bioware's attention, which is what we do not do. There is absolutely nothing that says it has to be like that.

 

Our problem is we're just standing in our own way.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Meluna

[SelinaK]

Yeah the problem is tht the whole model of listening to the loudest is flawed because the PVP players tend to be more aggressive by nature, those few of us that speak up are a rarity amongst RPers and we can't do *everything* lol.

 

they should start asking what people on the RP official forum and SWTOR-RP.com want if they aren't going to listen to us, it seems 4reddit is more important...

http://www.swtor-rp.com/home/m/1639454/article/498102

Edited January 10, 2012 by SelinaK

[Kolbenito]

I don't think it is necessarily that roleplayers are ignored. PVP is done on every type of server and so is PVE. These are the two major content types in most MMOs, and frankly what will determine the success or failure of the game. My server is RP-PVP and a lot of us enjoy PVP even more because of RP.

 

Ultimately I think it comes down to development time, especially with a brand new game that has a long way to go just to make it out of the "free to play" danger zone. They can spend that time on something that can be applied to the whole game or something that only roleplayers care about. Not that the two are mutually exclusive and I do find it ironic that roleplay is not a bigger factor in MMORPG development.

 

It is also just a bit early to say bioware doesn't listen to roleplayers. Nothing wrong with asking for things, especially those that really belong in the game anyway.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Kolbenito

[NamShub]

And much of the weight has already been thrown: Chat bubbles, sittable chairs, individual server forums, writable "biography" space that can be viewed by other players. What can one say besides, "Yes, please!"? It's inevitable that the issues on which there is much disagreement will be heavily trafficked; we simply need to be sure that the consensus wishlist remains visible.

 

Chat bubbles are a nice to have but I've already created a chat pane without /general and /trade which works as a suitable replacement, especially when using /me. Interactive environments are also a nice to have as well but not a huge thing.

 

So basically, to echo Darth_Slaine, things are fine as they are and you can live without theose features so nothing should be changed.

 

A final comment: consider what the outcry would be if, on a PvP server, players could unflag themselves and be exempt from PvP.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Meluna

[Kalfear]

But Ill make a list for the devs so they cant claim it wasnt down:

 

1) SERVER WITH HARD AND ENFORCED NAMING RULES: as stated in this thread, RP starts with naming. If it doesnt pass the smell test, it doesnt belong. If you cant understand what passes the smell test, hell Ill work 8 hours a day going through name reports. Its not that hard.

 

2) I usually am on the other side of this discussion. Im not big on moderation and after seeing how badly the mods abused power early on (when other guy ran show here, its been 10000000 times better since his departure) its kinda worrisome BUT I have seen the present MMORPG community first hand now and while that might be ok on PVE and PVP server, most people that play RP Servers do so to Role Play OR to play with in a more mature community.

 

The community on week ends before 2 am and week days before 11 pm IS NOT MATURE and many of the discussions are already against the TOS and frankly Im sick of putting people who shouldnt be on RP servers on ignore!

 

RP Servers need some prime time and evening moderation, at least on the level 25 and under planets.

 

3) *and this goes toward the entire game really but would be key forthe RP Servers* a gathering point and reason to come togather! I know others have suggested some stuff but Ill quote myself as I know what I said (if for no other reason).

 

You need to makle cantinas central hubs with games like Paazaak, Holo Chess, Swoop Racing (ala KotOR1), Pit Fighting (ala KotOR1 and 2). Give them a reason to come togather. Once they are togather, the community and players will do your work for you but its up to you to get them somewhere togather!

 

THATS ALL IT WOULD TAKE!

 

Oh there is a million small things like more emotes, sitting in chairs, laying in beds (really I wouldnt recommend this one but others have suggested it), ect ect ect

 

These are all small minor things that help but dont create RP enviroment.

 

Those 3 are all you need to do for the RP Community to have real RP servers where players feel safe enough to RP.

 

I know I started the game RolePlaying my Jedi and Trooper and Sith Inq

 

Since then I have stopped because no matter what I say or do I get trolled, insulted, ect

 

My Sith called a Twiliek slave, I got preached at for 30 minutes in tells and over general about how its racist to call someone slave. Eventually I put this person on ignore and she STILL WENT ON (could tell by the general chat responces) for another 20 minutes complaining about it at people. This person shouldnt be on a RP Server and moderation of Korriban would have solved this issue almost immediately!

 

Was playing my Sith Warrior up and somewoman was going on for a hour about how any male that played a Sith Warrior was really living out a disturbed desire to abuse and dominate women because of the Vette story line! This person shouldnt be on a RP Server and moderation of Korriban would have solved this issue almost immediately!

 

I logged into Kaas city as my Imp Agent and somply said "Greetings all, remember, Imperial Services is always watching you, act accordingly" and was greeted with 20 minutes of kids whining that I RPd on general channel and to leave that **** to private channels as most dont want to RP (THIS IS A FREAKING RP SERVER!!!!! Of course almost all of them had names that WOULD NOT PASS THE SMELL TEST. This people shouldnt be on a RP Server and moderation of DK would have solved this issue almost immediately!

 

List goes on and on.

 

The REAL (not the ones that say they are here but argue against anything that promotes a positive RP enviroment) ROLE PLAYERS and the Mature players who roll on RP Servers to get away from the the normal server childish natures will moderate their own servers after a point. Its up to you however to get them to that point!

 

Honestly prior to WOW, actual in game moderation of chat channels wasnt required really. The few million MMORPG players respected each other enough that non RPers didnt roll on RP servers and RPers didnt roll on PVE/PVP servers. Oh sure they insulted each others play style on forums but in game, there was a working truce or respect that rarely was broken.

 

Since WOW, appearently the respect factor has gone out the window and sadly open moderation is required on the lower level planets that attract the trolls and flamers (they usually spend so much time trying to make arses of themselves they never level up, which is why by the 25 area the community clears up massively).

 

So moderate the lower level planets for the first 6 months (maybe not even that, just during the rush period) and enforce naming.

 

No one (thats a real RPer and cares about community) is asking for anything outlandish or out of control. Just a few simple steps and the worst will be gone, which will leave the player base to deal with the few that slips through the cracks.

 

IMO, no one (on a RP server) should ever have to have a 20-30-40-50 + person ignore list because the developer will not give them the enviroment they hinted at giving!

 

I know when I read we would have RP servers, I didnt think for a sec that they would be PVE Server rule sets and nothing else.

 

Bioware, Ill simple say

 

BE BETTER!

Edited January 9, 2012 by Meluna

[Meluna]

Hello, everyone. We recently removed or edited quite a number of posts in this thread, and we would like to explain why.

 

First and foremost, this thread got pretty off track topic-wise. The original discussion point was if roleplayers feel they are not speaking up loudly enough in regard to what they want. Unfortunately, the thread got sidetracked into another discussion on naming policies. There is an existing thread that we're going to ask you all to please use, located right here. This will help keep the conversation in one place, where it's easier for everyone to find.

 

Secondly, there were a number of posts with personal attacks in them. We understand that not everyone is going to agree, but we ask that you are respectful and polite when doing so. Calling others trolls, saying you are going to put them on ignore, and being disrespectful in general is not something we allow. We encourage you all to please read over our Rules of Conduct, and to flag any posts you feel violate these guidelines. Replying to a negative post only further exacerbates the problem and derails the thread into flames and fighting.

 

We've reopened the thread at this time. If you have any further questions or concerns about this, please don't hesitate to contact our Community Coordinators at communitysupport@swtor.com. They will be more than happy to discuss any issues you may have. Thank you for your understanding, and enjoy your discussion.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Meluna

[NamShub]

Hello, everyone. We recently removed or edited quite a number of posts in this thread...

 

Nice to see that Bioware has funds for forum moderation but, somehow, enforcing a naming policy is just too expensive...

Edited January 10, 2012 by NamShub

[Darth_Slaine]

Nice to see that Bioware has funds for forum moderation but, somehow, enforcing a naming policy is just too expensive...

 

Maybe you missed this section...

 

Unfortunately, the thread got sidetracked into another discussion on naming policies. There is an existing thread that we're going to ask you all to please use, located right here.

 

 

To return to the original topic, I don't think the problem is that RPers are too quiet and definitely not that we are too mature to force the hand of the developers. I feel it is that there is a lack of consensus behind many of the requests and quite a few of them are just vanity changes that would be nice but are in no way vital to gameplay or even RP.

 

The best thing to do is decide on what issues would improve game enjoyment not just for RPers but for all players and focus on those first.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Darth_Slaine

[Tazmanius]

But Ill make a list for the devs so they cant claim it wasnt down:

 

1) SERVER WITH HARD AND ENFORCED NAMING RULES: as stated in this thread, RP starts with naming. If it doesnt pass the smell test, it doesnt belong. If you cant understand what passes the smell test, hell Ill work 8 hours a day going through name reports. Its not that hard.

 

2) I usually am on the other side of this discussion. Im not big on moderation and after seeing how badly the mods abused power early on (when other guy ran show here, its been 10000000 times better since his departure) its kinda worrisome BUT I have seen the present MMORPG community first hand now and while that might be ok on PVE and PVP server, most people that play RP Servers do so to Role Play OR to play with in a more mature community.

 

The community on week ends before 2 am and week days before 11 pm IS NOT MATURE and many of the discussions are already against the TOS and frankly Im sick of putting people who shouldnt be on RP servers on ignore!

 

RP Servers need some prime time and evening moderation, at least on the level 25 and under planets.

 

3) *and this goes toward the entire game really but would be key forthe RP Servers* a gathering point and reason to come togather! I know others have suggested some stuff but Ill quote myself as I know what I said (if for no other reason).

 

You need to makle cantinas central hubs with games like Paazaak, Holo Chess, Swoop Racing (ala KotOR1), Pit Fighting (ala KotOR1 and 2). Give them a reason to come togather. Once they are togather, the community and players will do your work for you but its up to you to get them somewhere togather!

 

THATS ALL IT WOULD TAKE!

 

Oh there is a million small things like more emotes, sitting in chairs, laying in beds (really I wouldnt recommend this one but others have suggested it), ect ect ect

 

These are all small minor things that help but dont create RP enviroment.

 

Those 3 are all you need to do for the RP Community to have real RP servers where players feel safe enough to RP.

 

I know I started the game RolePlaying my Jedi and Trooper and Sith Inq

 

Since then I have stopped because no matter what I say or do I get trolled, insulted, ect

 

My Sith called a Twiliek slave, I got preached at for 30 minutes in tells and over general about how its racist to call someone slave. Eventually I put this person on ignore and she STILL WENT ON (could tell by the general chat responces) for another 20 minutes complaining about it at people. This person shouldnt be on a RP Server and moderation of Korriban would have solved this issue almost immediately!

 

Was playing my Sith Warrior up and somewoman was going on for a hour about how any male that played a Sith Warrior was really living out a disturbed desire to abuse and dominate women because of the Vette story line! This person shouldnt be on a RP Server and moderation of Korriban would have solved this issue almost immediately!

 

I logged into Kaas city as my Imp Agent and somply said "Greetings all, remember, Imperial Services is always watching you, act accordingly" and was greeted with 20 minutes of kids whining that I RPd on general channel and to leave that **** to private channels as most dont want to RP (THIS IS A FREAKING RP SERVER!!!!! Of course almost all of them had names that WOULD NOT PASS THE SMELL TEST. This people shouldnt be on a RP Server and moderation of DK would have solved this issue almost immediately!

 

List goes on and on.

 

The REAL (not the ones that say they are here but argue against anything that promotes a positive RP enviroment) ROLE PLAYERS and the Mature players who roll on RP Servers to get away from the the normal server childish natures will moderate their own servers after a point. Its up to you however to get them to that point!

 

Honestly prior to WOW, actual in game moderation of chat channels wasnt required really. The few million MMORPG players respected each other enough that non RPers didnt roll on RP servers and RPers didnt roll on PVE/PVP servers. Oh sure they insulted each others play style on forums but in game, there was a working truce or respect that rarely was broken.

 

Since WOW, appearently the respect factor has gone out the window and sadly open moderation is required on the lower level planets that attract the trolls and flamers (they usually spend so much time trying to make arses of themselves they never level up, which is why by the 25 area the community clears up massively).

 

So moderate the lower level planets for the first 6 months (maybe not even that, just during the rush period) and enforce naming.

 

No one (thats a real RPer and cares about community) is asking for anything outlandish or out of control. Just a few simple steps and the worst will be gone, which will leave the player base to deal with the few that slips through the cracks.

 

IMO, no one (on a RP server) should ever have to have a 20-30-40-50 + person ignore list because the developer will not give them the enviroment they hinted at giving!

 

I know when I read we would have RP servers, I didnt think for a sec that they would be PVE Server rule sets and nothing else.

 

Bioware, Ill simple say

 

BE BETTER!

 

Agree with much of this..probably on a different server to you but the chat..the names..yes..seen much of this!

Need to be active GM's/Moderators on these RP servers.

[Hanscholo]

And yet there are numerous pvp changes coming.

[NamShub]

Maybe you missed this section...

 

No, I didn't.

 

If Bioware can pay people to read and, apparently, edit forum posts all day it's pretty clear they have the budget to put someone on RP server support dealing with issues of naming and Kass City /general turning into the unholy bastard child of Barrans Chat and /b/.

[NamShub]

And yet there are numerous pvp changes coming.

 

Sadly, I'll probably end up burning through the story content and then going back to EVE. If Bioware isn't going to make even the minimal effort to support my play style I don't see any reason to keep paying them.

 

I have a friend who is a massive star wars fan who is upgrading her computer to play TOR. After this last week on Ebon Hawk I'm about to tell her not to bother buying the game.

[Darth_Slaine]

I have a friend who is a massive star wars fan who is upgrading her computer to play TOR. After this last week on Ebon Hawk I'm about to tell her not to bother buying the game.

 

I've only had positive experiences on Ebon Hawk. We have a strong community with many resources -- there are quite a few RP sign-ups on this forum.

 

When out questing I have been a part of walk-up RP, made new friends and /General has mostly been discussions of the zone or companion story lines.

 

RP servers, I believe, are one of those strange transactions where you get out only as much as you put in.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Darth_Slaine

[SelinaK]

And yet there are numerous pvp changes coming.

 

One of the big things that highights the disparity in how RP is treated compared to PVP:

 

As soon as I login on a RP server, I get told I've joined a "[PVP]" channel straight away, to um, apparently help us in our need to discuss PVP? (along with [General] which of course can never be used for RP due to the spam)...

Why is it important to put everyone on a [PVP] channel but not [RP], on RP servers even?

 

Players have made some channels, but people have to seek it out, it just doesn't work for the majority of people, there's usually about what, 30 people, on the player channels out of hundreds upon hundreds on even the two main RP servers The Progenitor (EU) or Lord Adraas (US)... It just isn't working anyone can see at it if they look at the numbers on the channels, it'd be nice if it did but it doesn't, hell the game doesn't even tell you the /cjoin command EXISTS unless a player tells you

 

Most new players don't even realise there are actually channels full of people talking about RP or actually doing RP over channels sometimes too, 0 signposting so most new players tend to assume the people talking about PVE stuff on general is all there is unless they have had someone specifically guide them to the RP channels (especially since there is no channel search feature either)

 

And then to make it worse even when players make chat channels, then block them from being able to talk between factions or even in tells, on a RP server? It's so anachronistic to be blocking chat, if you are scared of PVPers ranting at each other than leave it an option like the profanity filter, but with RP it actually seriously affects the community because it restricts what we can do, we can only talk to people from the other faction if we happen to be in the same place by chance or have to arrange it on websites. It's a terrible situation and stops anything just spontaneously happening because there's no way to announce stuff to a lot of people in game whereas if someone wanted to organise a server PVP event they could just say (not that anyone ever actually uses the PVP channel that I've seen, ever, on the two RP servers whereas even with the many obstacles there's still a few people that use the player-created ones)

Edited January 10, 2012 by SelinaK

[SelinaH]

To return to the original topic, I don't think the problem is that RPers are too quiet and definitely not that we are too mature to force the hand of the developers. I feel it is that there is a lack of consensus behind many of the requests and quite a few of them are just vanity changes that would be nice but are in no way vital to gameplay or even RP.

 

This. We often can't even agree amongst ourselves what we want. The devs are going to place additions where they'll have the most player impact. Most of the time, that's PvE game mechanics, and to a lesser extent PvP.

 

And if you go by the opinion of some posters, who believe that anyone who doesn't agree with them isn't a "real" RPer, the RP community's actually a hell of a lot smaller than it looks.

[SelinaH]

As soon as I login on a RP server, I get told I've joined a "[PVP]" channel straight away, to um, apparently help us in our need to discuss PVP? (along with [General] which of course can never be used for RP due to the spam)...

Why is it important to put everyone on a [PVP] channel but not [RP], on RP servers even?

 

It might simply be that RPers tend to use local chat as IC conversation anyway, so there's less need for an actual IC "RP" channel, and the devs are aware that OOC LFRP channels tend to spring up on their own as well. On the other hand, I really don't want PvPers cluttering General with their plans and play-by-plays if there's another option available. Take it as a compliment, if you're so inclined: The devs trust us not to bother people, so they're content to leave us with the default channels.

 

Players have made some channels, but people have to seek it out, it just doesn't work for the majority of people, there's usually about what, 30 people, on the player channels out of hundreds upon hundreds on even the two main RP servers The Progenitor (EU) or Lord Adraas (US)... It just isn't working anyone can see at it if they look at the numbers on the channels, it'd be nice if it did but it doesn't, hell the game doesn't even tell you the /cjoin command EXISTS unless a player tells you

 

The game has only been out for less than a month. It's been my experience that as time goes on, those channels do fill up as people become aware of their options. Granted, it might be nice for them to make it easier to find information about custom channels, and as that's an addition that would impact the entire playerbase, it's a request that might get a little more traction with the devs.

 

And then to make it worse even when players make chat channels, then block them from being able to talk between factions or even in tells, on a RP server?

 

Yeah, this is pretty ridiculous. I had a "***?" moment when I learned that emotes don't go cross-faction. It's probably intended to make cross-faction harassment more difficult for the griefers, but that sort of behavior is already prohibited under the TOS anyway, and should simply be reported and punished as appropriate.

[Kolbenito]

Main theme I see going on here is folks upset that rp servers arent heavily customized for rp, instead they are basically just like all other servers in the game but with the rp designator.

 

To play the devil's advocate, pvp servers and pve servers don't get anything special for being the type of server they are. Pvp realms have contested zones, that's the only difference. It is not as though a pve realm has even more flashpoints and operations.

 

I don't necessarily disagree with many of the points being made in the thread, and roleplayers certainly have the right to ask for things. At the same time some people come across as somehow wronged or offended that rp realms aren't a completely custom realm type. That seems like a recipe for being always disappointed.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Kolbenito

[Zavia]

This. We often can't even agree amongst ourselves what we want. The devs are going to place additions where they'll have the most player impact. Most of the time, that's PvE game mechanics, and to a lesser extent PvP.

 

And if you go by the opinion of some posters, who believe that anyone who doesn't agree with them isn't a "real" RPer, the RP community's actually a hell of a lot smaller than it looks.

 

 

I don't agree with most of what you wrote at all, and would throw this in the myth column. These are excuses we need to get rid of. I do agree that devs add content that has what they think is the best impact for their community. But they also add content that is directed at particular playstyles and they do it all the time. Why shouldn't RP be included in that?

 

And as has already been mentioned PvPers constantly go back and forth on what is "true" PvP. Some advocate for FFA, some advocate for partial loot, XP loss, coin, item loot, no item loot, safe zones, no safe zones, level based PvP where you can't attack someone within so many levels, no immunity after death, immunity after death... the list goes on and on, and that's just PvPers, but they still manage to make themselves heard. Developers say OK we think we hear this so will add it like so.

 

And I'm not raising my fist and saying Bioware why have you failed us! I'm just discussion this phenomenon where RPers have become their worst enemy by not speaking up for themselves in MMOs.

[Zavia]

Main theme I see going on here is folks upset that rp servers arent heavily customized for rp, instead they are basically just like all other servers in the game but with the rp designator.

 

To play the devil's advocate, pvp servers and pve servers don't get anything special for being the type of server they are. Pvp realms have contested zones, that's the only difference. It is not as though a pve realm has even more flashpoints and operations.

 

I don't necessarily disagree with many of the points being made in the thread, and roleplayers certainly have the right to ask for things. At the same time some people come across as somehow wronged or offended that rp realms aren't a completely custom realm type. That seems like a recipe for being always disappointed.

 

 

I'm not understanding your point on PvP realms, sorry. How are PvP realms not custom realms, or did I misunderstand? That they are similar to other realms is understandable because all realms have the same basic format. Its the purpose by design that makes PvP realms custom. Taking that into account, if one sees "RP realm" it's not unreasonable to expect the same as we see for PvP realms, but that is not the case in SWTOR, so in that context, I think it's understandable that some are upset.

[TrevNYC]

Yeah the problem is tht the whole model of listening to the loudest is flawed because the PVP players tend to be more aggressive by nature, those few of us that speak up are a rarity amongst RPers and we can't do *everything* lol.

 

Yes, but the even bigger flaw is that people think that this a model in the first place. It's true that loud complaints often correlate with game changes. What's not particularly true is that those complaints cause game changes, or that issues are addressed by priority of who complained loudest.

 

If something is a big problem, then a lot of people probably will complain about it. That thing might get changed ultimately, not because of the complaints, but because it was a big problem in the first place (which led to all the people complaining).

 

But there are numerous complaints, loud and otherwise, that don't go anywhere. If you look at other MMORPGs (which is all we have to go on at this early stage anyway) there are plenty of examples where players are are very vocal about wanting something that just doesn't happen because it is at odds with a design goal.

 

Similarly, there are issues addressed in just about every patch of every MMORPG that leave some people thinking, "huh? I had no clue that was even an issue, why's that getting addressed when they haven't fixed <insert issue here>?" Even the non-squeaky wheels get greased.

[TrevNYC]

I don't agree with most of what you wrote at all, and would throw this in the myth column. These are excuses we need to get rid of. I do agree that devs add content that has what they think is the best impact for their community. But they also add content that is directed at particular playstyles and they do it all the time. Why shouldn't RP be included in that?

 

I don't think the point was that RP shouldn't be included. The point was that some things might be lower priority because of the impact that they will have, and that's not nearly the same as saying they won't ever get a look. Some of the "RP" things that people are asking for aren't strictly limited to RP anyway. I'm sure that PvE and PvP servers have people that would appreciate chairs to sit in or chat bubbles too.

 

If those things (bubbles and chairs) aren't being implemented right now, it's because of one of two things: (1) the designers don't want them to be in the game for some reason, or (2) they do need to put them in, but have to find the right time to do it in light of all the other things they need to do.

 

One big issue is that people assume that it's (1) just by virtue of the fact that they aren't in the game, which is premature to say the least.

[SelinaH]

I don't agree with most of what you wrote at all, and would throw this in the myth column. These are excuses we need to get rid of. I do agree that devs add content that has what they think is the best impact for their community. But they also add content that is directed at particular playstyles and they do it all the time. Why shouldn't RP be included in that?

 

How is it a myth? The evidence is in the naming threads - we *don't* always agree with each other. Sure, there's a fair amount of consensus on a number of issues, and those are the places where additions may be more likely. I don't see anyone maintaining that RPers shouldn't get anything because the community isn't big enough. The reality, however, is that the vast majority of improvements are going to be slated for PvE mechanics - because the vast majority of players engage in some form of PvE play.

 

And as has already been mentioned PvPers constantly go back and forth on what is "true" PvP. Some advocate for FFA, some advocate for partial loot, XP loss, coin, item loot, no item loot, safe zones, no safe zones, level based PvP where you can't attack someone within so many levels, no immunity after death, immunity after death... the list goes on and on, and that's just PvPers, but they still manage to make themselves heard. Developers say OK we think we hear this so will add it like so.

 

It's easy to "break" PvP or to leave it in such an unbalanced state that fewer and fewer people will participate. It's not so easy to make RP a playstyle that's undesirable or flat-out unplayable to its intended audience. Unfortunately for us, PvP is a playstyle that, IME, has tended to require constant and vigilant maintenance from the development team, lest it implode. We don't normally require that kind of dev attention just to be able to play. Unless chat or emotes get completely borked, we can usually manage to get by. Sadly, this also puts us lower on the priority scale, since many of the things we tend to ask for fall under quality-of-life improvements rather than outright fixes or rebalancing passes.

 

Mind you, I'm not saying it *should* be this way, just that it's a plausible explanation for why there might be disparities in how community wishlists are addressed. I don't buy the argument that we get shafted because we're just not loud enough. I think we're plenty loud. But (gross generalizations follow here) RPers tend to stick around more for community than for shinies; PvPers leave when their game gets unfun, unbalanced or just plain old hat. Guess where the attention goes?

[TrevNYC]

The reality, however, is that the vast majority of improvements are going to be slated for PvE mechanics - because the vast majority of players engage in some form of PvE play.

 

I think the better way to put it is that there is less of a need to apply RP-server specific improvements because RP is a system, like PvE and PvP, that applies to players on a variety of servers. There are many elements of RP that are so ingrained into the game that we take them for granted. For example, picking your character name and choosing an appearance are RP elements, and they are built into the game at a base level. You don't often see these elements in non-RPG games, which use assigned character names/appearances/etc.

 

What this means is that RP concerns often will be addressed as larger system changes. The latest dev blog talks about changes they are making so that people can maintain a custom appearance without sacrificing end-game PvE and PvP stats. It's obvious how character appearance is important to RP, so why wouldn't this be an example of an "RP issue" that is a high priority committment from the devs?

 

The answer seems to be because it also happens to be an issue that PvE/PvP players care about too. That hardly seems to be a fair way of assessing whether the devs are concerned about RPers. A better way might be to say that the "vast majority of players engage in some form of RP play" too.

Edited January 10, 2012 by TrevNYC
grammar