Juggernaut DPS?

[IreScath]

You have NO idea what you're talking about, and it shows.

 

It's easy to say that without any proof or backing... I can call you a purple elephant if I like... Doesn't make it right.

 

I'm a lvl 50 jugg dps that is currently raiding, and have been playing MMO's for over 7 years.

 

You?

 

And care to elaborate on why I "have no idea" what I am talking about? Because I assure you that I do.

[Noth]

That's with Rakatta surge stim, surge or power relic, rakata stat boost stim, pvp damage powerup and maybe marauder bloodlust buff. And 4 stacks of shockwave of course.

 

Still impressive though.

 

Impressive yes, but like you say it has basically everything blown to drop that damage. Without pocket healers he'd be CC'd and dead with that many on him before he got it off as well.

 

Well this mean you have no clue about Rage specced Jugs. Not only 3K is rather simple, under the right boosts you can get 6-7k regularly.

 

Having to have basically every available damage buff on you to get this numbers is not a regular occurrence.

[eightohfive]

Don't do it. I would wager the majority of dps-attempting Jugs try it only because they prefer the look of wielding a single saber and want to kill things, then champion how good it is because of "buyers remorse".

 

Just because 2 of the skill trees are for damage doesnt mean it's viable: skill points compliment the base of the hero; look at the skills the Jug gets via levelling, focusing on increasing the dmg numbers is a waste.

 

This is some of the worst theory crafting I've seen in awhile! Listen to people who have experience, not the ones that just read the skills then make a HUGE generalization without taking into account talents or other buffs/debuffs Juggs bring to the table.

 

If the Juggernaut DPS is underpowered, it's not significant enough to stop you from completing the greater part of endgame content. People have proved that at the very least. All classes get tweaked throughout an MMO, this one hasnt even been out a month, picking the class and spec you enjoy most is the only really sound decision at this early of a stage, whether you are a casual player or dedicate all your time to progression.

[IreScath]

Basically what I believe it will come down to is this:

 

If you want to dps as a sith warrior in a server first / world first atmosphere in nightmare modes, you'll want to be a marauder.

 

But for everyone else, most likely , Jugg dps will be just fine, even in hardmode / nightmare.

[Somedokin]

This is a rage specced Jugg that has built up 4 stacks of shockwave and then smashed... It takes some considerable time, and planning/effort to build that up, and is the only major DPS ability of the spec. It's meant for PvP applications.[/Quote]

 

Wrong. It takes hardly any time at all to set up a 4 Shockwave Smash, and on top of that, Ravage, Obliterate, and Force Scream ALL contribute significantly to Rage DPS, even if they don't have the DoT effect that Vengeance receives.

 

Only Obliterate and the 31pt talent can build shockwave stacks, and the dps output of those abilities is lacking (all under the dmg of a vengeance specced Impale, Force scream, and Shatter, without considering the added DOT dmg from those three).

 

Obliterate does NOT grant Shockwave stacks, and the fact that Obliterate procs Dominate puts it on par with Impale. Force Crush does MORE damage than Impale, and were it not for the CD it would be close to Shatter. The added damage to Smash from Shockwave will be comparable to all the DoT damage of Vengeance, and it gives Rage spec a huge advantage on any fight that requires AoE.

 

 

I'm glad you think your 7 wasted years of raiding means something. It doesn't.

[DarthWhatever]

Well this mean you have no clue about Rage specced Jugs. Not only 3K is rather simple, under the right boosts you can get 6-7k regularly.

 

You're right. I have not tried the Rage tree. I expected to see that kind of damage in vengeance. Not rage. I will give it a try. Anyone have a rage build out that they would like to share?

 

Also - what mods would you use for rage? The ones that shorten the CD?

[Noth]

You're right. I have not tried the Rage tree. I expected to see that kind of damage in vengeance. Not rage. I will give it a try. Anyone have a rage build out that they would like to share?

 

Also - what mods would you use for rage? The ones that shorten the CD?

 

You won't get 6k-7k hits regularly. To get those you have to have virtually all damage buffs on your character. Regularly it will be 3k-4k. Something other classes can do back to back to back.

[Rorbzy]

Level 36 Jugger here.

Short version: Vengeance is best suited for Boss battles, or fights you can stand still for longer periods of time hitting the 1 target, great for fighting bosses in story quests, bit slow on the questing due to focusing on single target dps.

 

Try Rage spec, much better all rounder, great mobility/control in PvP, far superior aoe for PvE quests, still good single target dps for bosses.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101ZIbMZGbRbdbRdGR.1

 

Something like that spec should suffice.

 

Or for me at lvl 36:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101ZI0MZGbRbdbk.1

 

Vicious slash looks like it could be good once upgraded, but I have enough other rage using abilities to prioritize over it.

 

 

Further opinions on Jugger specs:

 

Immortal is the spec to be if you can find groups often, would be nice to have a self heal though without having to spec into rage for a 10% 2 min one,....otherwise, feel pretty tough when you have a healer companion, still sucky for pvp at lvl 30, haven't tried it at 36.

 

Vengeance spec, I believe the dots/bleeds from talents are pretty low damage for the talent points spent, and a lot of the high tier talents really aren't that great for the points spent... rampage, huddle, deafening defense....maybe if they were lower tier, i'd pick them up as immortal. It'll be better for fights you can stand still for longer periods, to take advantage of more frequent use of Ravage.

 

Rage spec is a great pvp spec for jugger, also great for solo questing due to the insane aoe damage smash does spec'd. PvPing is more user friendly, Obliterate and force crush to slow enemies and close gaps, mini self heal when you break cc, ravage and force choke suffer no pushback.

[DarthWhatever]

You won't get 6k-7k hits regularly. To get those you have to have virtually all damage buffs on your character. Regularly it will be 3k-4k. Something other classes can do back to back to back.

 

Understood. Even a 3-4K damage hit would be great to try. Immortal does half that at most. Are you running a rage build? Would you mind sharing a torhead or Darth Hater page build of it?

[Foenixz]

Just how bad are juggernaut speced DPS's? I'm trying to choose between being a marauder and juggernaut right now, and I'm curious as to how comparable the damage they do is. Is it roughly similar, or is one significantly higher?

 

I run with a same level Marauder as a Juggs and at 41 I can finish a silver as fast as he can without burning any CDs

[Noth]

Understood. Even a 3-4K damage hit would be great to try. Immortal does half that at most. Are you running a rage build? Would you mind sharing a torhead or Darth Hater page build of it?

 

I've run a rage build before, they aren't hard to make you just need the talents that increase smash's damage and crit. My immortal build I ran would crit for about 3.5k with crushing blow even without full stacks. A crap ton of our damage come from gear so immortal with dps gear can still drop some nice numbers.

[IreScath]

Wrong. It takes hardly any time at all to set up a 4 Shockwave Smash, and on top of that, Ravage, Obliterate, and Force Scream ALL contribute significantly to Rage DPS, even if they don't have the DoT effect that Vengeance receives.

 

 

 

Obliterate does NOT grant Shockwave stacks, and the fact that Obliterate procs Dominate puts it on par with Impale. Force Crush does MORE damage than Impale, and were it not for the CD it would be close to Shatter. The added damage to Smash from Shockwave will be comparable to all the DoT damage of Vengeance, and it gives Rage spec a huge advantage on any fight that requires AoE.

 

 

I'm glad you think your 7 wasted years of raiding means something. It doesn't.

 

Ah right force choke and not oblit, don't know why I said oblit :S.

 

But aynway to your first point... Force scream is available to both specs, and has a crit proc off of impale and shatter in vengeance tree... So I don't see why you would use it in a comparison... That makes no sense.

 

Ravage is bad. The only time it makes sense to use it in PvE is when you are rage capped and all your rage dump abilities that are worth using are on CD... This is hardly ever.... Your target also has to stay stationary, and it takes 3 seconds to get the full dmg of ravage....

 

And just because Oblit is significant to Rage dps, does not mean it is comparable to either of the big three for vengeance... because it's not. at all.

 

Yes oblit procs dominate... and impale/shatter procs savagery for Force scream.. which is always usable... There are time in PvE where smash will be a bad idea (your target is close to a CC).

 

You will also need to force choke to be able to have a 4 shockwave stacks as often as possible (smash CD of 12 secs, force crush 21 secs)... lol force choke dps.

 

And the added dmg from smash is not comparable to added dot dmg from Force scream (rage wont get dot with this ability), Impale, and Shatter... WHen I get back from lunch I'll provide the maths, so I can teach the ignorant.

 

SO yea.. You're wrong.

[Lord_Itharius]

You won't get 6k-7k hits regularly. To get those you have to have virtually all damage buffs on your character. Regularly it will be 3k-4k. Something other classes can do back to back to back.

 

Like the vengeance spec with impale/shatter ;-)

 

Don't do Rage for pve dps. In any fight longer than 15 seconds, Vengeance will outdps Rage by a wide margin. I saw this leveling up when I switched from rage to vengeance spec. The DPS gain I got on elite mobs was immediate and obvious.

 

Also, contrary to what everyone is saying, you can put out crazy dps with vengeance from what I've seen. The main problem atm with vengeance besides the ravage/force chock bug is the lack of aggro reducing abilities, I will often pull aggro off of bad or undergeared tanks :-(

 

<-- almost full champion and columni epics.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Lord_Itharius

[Lord_Itharius]

I've run a rage build before, they aren't hard to make you just need the talents that increase smash's damage and crit. My immortal build I ran would crit for about 3.5k with crushing blow even without full stacks. A crap ton of our damage come from gear so immortal with dps gear can still drop some nice numbers.

 

The problem is you'll be horribly rage-starved. Immortal performs nice numbers when you're tanking.

[Lord_Itharius]

And for the post that shows a pic of smash doing 3K damage per target. I almost want to say it's photoshopped. I'm a level 48 jug and have played around with all of the trees and never manage to do half that much damage with one move.

 

I did 3k damage per target with a shockwave-charged Smash at lvl 35 as Rage spec lol. You can get as high as 5k in full champion gear versus players with no expertise in PvP. It's because Smash goes up to 130% extra damage with garaunteed crit, armor pen, and added crit damage through the rage tree. It's still crap for PvE though because you can only do it twice every 45 seconds.

[Noth]

The problem is you'll be horribly rage-starved. Immortal performs nice numbers when you're tanking.

 

Never ever felt rage starved as you are still in soresu form thus getting rage from being hit. Also people for some reason like to try and kill that level 50 jugg instead of the healer healing him.

[IreScath]

Never ever felt rage starved as you are still in soresu form thus getting rage from being hit. Also people for some reason like to try and kill that level 50 jugg instead of the healer healing him.

 

Well... Feelign rage starved usually is quite relative... Play a vengeance spec in shien form... then switch to immortal soresu... Its obviously less rage, but I didn't feel "starved" I don't think.

[Noth]

Well... Feelign rage starved usually is quite relative... Play a vengeance spec in shien form... then switch to immortal soresu... Its obviously less rage, but I didn't feel "starved" I don't think.

 

That's exactly what I did. I leveled vengeance and switched to immortal. Never felt rage starved. Each just has it's own pacing.

[Greystonez]

I've never felt rage starved playing Immortal spec at lvl 34 currently. I can see the pvp application of the spec at 50 as well because as another said this class is very gear dependant and level dependant. If you fought a geared prot warrior in WoW it was like *** shockwave crit Ow, from a tank? Huzzah! Use a soresu/shield for some extra defense/resist basically and stack strength/surge and smack **** hard while still being beefy.

 

Currently after having tried both rage and vengeance I found vengeance superior to rage both in single target sustained dps and group clearing. The smash crits while nice wouldn't drop a group faster than force charge<force scream dead, impale<ravage dead, by now companion has killed one etc. Plus vengeance does decent smash damage anyway and can do it for free.

 

I will say that rage was nice though because it did feel like a different playstyle. All the specs have their own flavor which is nice.

 

 

One last thing. Why does everyone seem to hate ravage? It's free. It hits hard albeit over the course of the 3 seconds. In pve it is not hard whatsoever to use 99% of the time. Considering it's cooldown for most specs you would think you would want to use it first and then cycle through your abilities.

 

It's pretty obvious with vengeance spec that it is supposed to be in your rotation having the possibility to use it once every 9 seconds inbetween shatter, impale, force scream and smash for aoe.

 

I'm not sure, but if even one of the hits on ravage crits the damage is huge and the fact it's free makes it a no brainer to me. Has anyone tested alacrity with ravage for a dps spec? If it were possible to get the cast time within the gcd this attack would have amazing dps.

[IreScath]

I've never felt rage starved playing Immortal spec at lvl 34 currently. I can see the pvp application of the spec at 50 as well because as another said this class is very gear dependant and level dependant. If you fought a geared prot warrior in WoW it was like *** shockwave crit Ow, from a tank? Huzzah! Use a soresu/shield for some extra defense/resist basically and stack strength/surge and smack **** hard while still being beefy.

 

Currently after having tried both rage and vengeance I found vengeance superior to rage both in single target sustained dps and group clearing. The smash crits while nice wouldn't drop a group faster than force charge<force scream dead, impale<ravage dead, by now companion has killed one etc. Plus vengeance does decent smash damage anyway and can do it for free.

 

I will say that rage was nice though because it did feel like a different playstyle. All the specs have their own flavor which is nice.

 

 

One last thing. Why does everyone seem to hate ravage? It's free. It hits hard albeit over the course of the 3 seconds. In pve it is not hard whatsoever to use 99% of the time. Considering it's cooldown for most specs you would think you would want to use it first and then cycle through your abilities.

 

It's pretty obvious with vengeance spec that it is supposed to be in your rotation having the possibility to use it once every 9 seconds inbetween shatter, impale, force scream and smash for aoe.

 

I'm not sure, but if even one of the hits on ravage crits the damage is huge and the fact it's free makes it a no brainer to me. Has anyone tested alacrity with ravage for a dps spec? If it were possible to get the cast time within the gcd this attack would have amazing dps.

 

http://sithwarrior.com/forums/Thread-Vengeance-DPS-Compendium

 

Ravage is just not good. Skip to last page (last post even), for a more detailed explanation on why ravage isn't good.

 

But it basically comes down to the need to build rage so that you can use shatter, impale, and force scream as close as possible to when they come off cooldown. Ravage does not build rage, and takes 3 seconds to complete. Slash is actualyl higher dps taking into account the duration. But pleas do read that thread.

[Ulliam]

Ravage is bad. The only time it makes sense to use it in PvE is when you are rage capped and all your rage dump abilities that are worth using are on CD... This is hardly ever.... Your target also has to stay stationary, and it takes 3 seconds to get the full dmg of ravage....

 

This is incorrect as your target does not have to be stationary. You simply need to be stationary and in range to start Ravage. Once it's started, it will complete it's full damage even if the target has moved out of range.

 

I use it all the time in both PvE & PvP and have had no real issues with it.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Ulliam

[Noth]

This is incorrect as your target does not have to be stationary. You simply need to be stationary and in range to start Ravage. Once it's started, it will complete it's full damage even if the target has moved out of range.

 

I use it all the time in both PvE & PvP and have had no real issues with it.

 

False. I wiff on the last hit all the time in pvp, I also avoid the last hit all the time in pvp. I only land the last hit if I can use it on a stunned or oblivious target.

[Ulliam]

False. I wiff on the last hit all the time in pvp, I also avoid the last hit all the time in pvp. I only land the last hit if I can use it on a stunned or oblivious target.

 

Nope, something is interrupting you in this case. Outside of interruptions even if they move away it will complete.

[IreScath]

False. I wiff on the last hit all the time in pvp, I also avoid the last hit all the time in pvp. I only land the last hit if I can use it on a stunned or oblivious target.

 

This is correct.

[Ulliam]

This is correct.

 

I disagree, this has not been my experience at all. From what you said it doesn't even sound like you use it. As I have said, I use it all the time and complete it all the time on non-stationary targets.