The Expertise stat has to go...

[ShwagATK]

I agree. SWG didn't have expertise, and neither does WoW. WoW has a Mastery rating which adds more to your talent tree specialization I think.

 

wow has resilience. resilence works the same way as expertise. and generally on pvp gear in wow the offensive stats were LOWER while making the defensive stats such as health higher. a warrior in pve gear would roll around with 14k hp while a pvp geared would have somewhere along the lines of 18k+. less dmg, more survivability, less PVE oriented stats such as accuracy ( 5% was the hit cap in pvp that people had to gem + enchant to reach ) and more for burst such as crit and ATK power

 

edit: hit cap for pve was what? 20%? i can't remember but thats why PVE Gear > PVP gear for pve. a pvp geared warrior would miss almost 60% of auto swings on bosses and there by lose a **** ton of dps. doesnt apply in pvp because it was only 5% ( + - 2% due to racial stats )

Edited January 6, 2012 by ShwagATK

[Kryptorchid]

If Bio had any vision... they would have done away with the idea of a PvP stat... and designed a PvE Stat. A way to make 30 30 30 stats on both gear... with PvE raid gear that adds 10% bonuses too PvE content. That would have been the fix.... PvP stats are the completely wrong way to go about it... No NPC is going to wine that that fully geared raid group is smacking em 10% harder.

 

THIS! MOTHER *********** THIS!

 

I have been saying this since Expertise was announced. It isn't that hard to realize a "PvE Stat" is the PERFECT way to separate PvP gear from PvE gear. I don't understand why so many developers are blind to this idea.

[Draemos]

another PvEer who wants to win w/ raid gear

[Treebyrn]

If PVP needs a reward system, then have it apply expertise to your character, not gear. It has no use outside of PVP, but while in PVP it "activates". The higher the valor you have, the more "expertise" your character earns.

 

I hate a system where you have to "swap gear" constantly. EverQuest 2 had a style where every ability you had did something different depending on if you were PVPing or PVEing. If you hit a mob with a super hit, you did 15,000 damage. If you used the same ability on a player, it did 3,000 damage. No gear changes needed. It auto applied to skills....not gear.

 

I kind of like this idea.... say maybe every 10 valor ranks you got a % of expertise applied to your character and not your gear. This would give people the chance to wear what ever gear they wish.

[S-m-i-t-t-y]

Its the people who are against the pvp stat that cause the rest of us pvper's to lose our warzones, because they think they can just wander in to pvp and expect to do well like they do in pve.

 

They do have expertise stims and power ups in the warzones. So try learning how to pvp before you complain about it.

[Marcuspasnicus]

Well PVE gear is just dumb. If i only raid once in a while I will never be able to do the same dps as someone who raids all the time. Its just not fair.

 

What we will end up with is people all decked out in good gear and people who have slightly worse gear and they will never catch up.

 

No need for better gear in the whole game imo. Just make 1 set of stats for everyone and make gear just look different.

[S-m-i-t-t-y]

Well PVE gear is just dumb. If i only raid once in a while I will never be able to do the same dps as someone who raids all the time. Its just not fair.

 

What we will end up with is people all decked out in good gear and people who have slightly worse gear and they will never catch up.

 

No need for better gear in the whole game imo. Just make 1 set of stats for everyone and make gear just look different.

 

Well with this aspect it would totally eliminate the need for operations, flashpoints, and pvp. So no that's not really a solution.

[ShwagATK]

THIS! MOTHER *********** THIS!

 

I have been saying this since Expertise was announced. It isn't that hard to realize a "PvE Stat" is the PERFECT way to separate PvP gear from PvE gear. I don't understand why so many developers are blind to this idea.

 

while that is a neat idea i sense a biased judgement from pve heroes. sure bioware, give pve'ers a pve stat. whatever. then why in the world would you take away the pvp stat? hmm...

 

no. you do realize that expertise not only allows you to hit an enemy player HARDER but also reduces the amount you take from another player as well right? ( as far as i know )

 

so lets just say you are fully pvp geared out. lower offense with high survivability. sounds good to me. and hey, if you're just one of the people that happens to have pro healers on your group take some of that pvp gear off and switch it for some higher offense pve gear. LOWER Survivability with higher dmg. it works both ways. if youre running around in full pve gear and get stomped by a champion geared pvper, and whining about it, reality check.

 

my engine has a high PSI boosted turbo while yours is N/A. my car dies at 150k mileage and yours at 400k.

 

give and take, give and take. its like saying your honda civic should be allowed to beat my rx7 because theyre both cars.

[Acindo]

So you say why have a 10% bonus when eventually everyone will have it and cancel each other out?

 

So.. why have xp if everyone can get 50? Why not just start at 50? Cause in the end, everyone will get it right?

 

People either stop pvping, play better, group with friends or quit.

 

I'm 36 with 36 valor and face premades all the time, losing most often on Alderaan and least often on Huttball.

 

Maybe its just me.. but I actually expect to be at a disadvantage when facing higher levelled better geared opponents who have invested more of their time and deserve to be stronger.

[Sabbathius]

WoW calls it Resilience

Rift calls it Valor

TOR calls it Expertise

 

And all of it blows!

 

Resilience was an dumb thing to do when Blizzard did it. It was changed quite a few times over the years, and it still sucks. They even added another stat in the latest expansion, don't remember what it's called, Mastery? Anyway, that didn't turn out well either.

 

The very IDEA that you need a separate set for PvE and PvP is asinine. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is. If people want to gear up in PvP, they should be able to, and if they want to PvE in said gear, they should be able to. And vice versa. But needing to raid for PvE gear and PvP for PvP gear, with a PvP stat that only applies to PvP? Dumb. What's next? Leveling gear? Only way to gain XP is by wearing leveling gear?

[EternalFinality]

You should be able to get top tier gear EITHER by PvPing or Raiding, and they should be able to be used in both.

 

If you want the gear to be actually useful in one context or the other, add effects to it (passive effects/set bonuses) that are only really useful in one context. For PvP, stuff like reduced CC durations, increased duration of Resolve, slows, and the like, and disallow these effects against PvE targets. Do the same with raid gear. That way both are interchangeable but have a distinct advantage in their field.

 

Expertise simply raised the barriers of entry to people who don't have it. It's a bad stat and a bad concept.

Edited January 6, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Hambunctious]

Expertise simply raised the barriers of entry to people who don't have it. It's a bad stat and a bad concept.

 

^^^truth^^^

[Kryptorchid]

another PvEer who wants to win w/ raid gear

 

Let me spell this out for you...

 

I am a PvPer. I have no interest in Raiding. I DON'T want a PvP stat, because A) it deters new players from trying/participating/functioning in PvP because the "more experience" players have a stat handicap, B) it lowers the skill cap in encounters, and C) is annoying as **** when you roll an alt.

 

I have no issue with PvP gear, but a PvP stat just breaks PvP for new players, not raiders. What should happen is this:

 

PvP Chest

+100 Endurance

+100 Aim

+75 Crit

+25 Surge

 

PvE Chest

+100 Endurance

+100 Aim

+75 Crit

+25 Surge

+50 PvE Expertise

 

Now you have a system where0

A) PvP Gear is just as good as the best Raid gear in PvP -- there is a diminished gear gap and skill can prevail.

 

B) A PvPer can use their PvP gear to raid, but at -10% efficiency compared to a similar tiered gear Raider.

 

Both of these promote participation in both forms of Endgame. And most importantly,

 

C) It makes PvP more accesible and fun to newer players, instead of a test of patience from being steamrolled by people solely because they have played longer, not better.

[SoWHS]

Expertise is fine.

[TheWeav]

This entire thread boils down to, "I'm mad because I play MMOs and hate equipment mechanics no matter how they're made."

 

Not productive, save a few comments I read that actually have numeric suggestions.

 

"End up canceling out their expertise"???? That's called competition, when your stats are the same at high lvl and it's about out-playing them.

 

Competition is the end-point and desire behind PvP. If your stats end up even/scaled at the end with equal gear level then they did their job.

 

 

 

Worrying about a stat on gear is worthless to you, just play it and have fun.

 

We don't even have what we all want yet anyways, which is a RATED system that does NOT involve these Warzone Fire/Acid deathgrip CD contests.

[Pylock]

you can't compare expertise to resilience or valor as its capped at 15%... if I remember correctly top valor gear in rift gave about a 46% and resilince back in season 2 if super stacked was somthing like reduce crit chance my 26% and damg form crits by 52% making all crit based specs useless.

 

expertise give the following you you have titcapped...(which is not hard to cap do dailies and weeklies and you get gear fast help im not even 50 yet and i am maxed on merc marks and war zone marks with 87ish pvp stims and 1 champ bag already banked banked.

 

The minute I hit 50 ill trade my marks in for 5 more bags add in my weekly/dailys end first week thats something like 16 bags with only doing 1 winning WZ a day.

 

Walk around tat open pvp area for an hour you get lie k400 merc marks then do 3-4 WZ and get the 400 war zone coms you need for 2 more bags

 

My play time is super limited as I have classes and 3 kids yet in the 3-4 hours I can play from 730 at night till about 11 at night I plan to farm 2-3 bags a day.

 

If you think 2-4 hours is allot of time to play then I am sorry its going to be very hard to keep any kinda of pve or pvp pace in an MMO

 

I am level 45 now my friends been 50 for 3 days doing basically what I said and hes already got like 380 expertise

[zPeanutz]

Reading comprehension people. Cmon, read slowly and understand what someone is saying.

 

He said to get rid of the PvP stat. Not the gear reward for participating in warzones. You could be awarded the exact same gear in warzones as you would receive in a raid.

 

I'm not here to discuss how to make this work, or to agree or disagree with the OP but it seemed several people thought he was suggesting that we all be forced to raid to stay competitive.

 

I'm actually ok with it either way.

[Thiussat]

This makes no sense.. raiders get their gear from raiding (if all they want to do is raid), if they want to pvp as well then they are in the same boat as the rest of us. I am not sure how the pvp gear is for raiding but there is an outside chance that if raiders wanted to be top tier in both raiding and pvp then they will have to grind out 2 sets of gear.

 

I kind of agree with the OP, there is no need for a pvp only stat. They only thing that is needed is for top end pvp gear to = raid gear. The reason wow added resilience is because people decked out in top end raid gear were blowing people up in pvp, if wow had just made the top end pvp gear = top end raid gear then both side would have been happy (you get your gear your way and I will get mine my way ).

 

Well, I agree to a point. It sounds good on paper, but the problem is that the grind for that raid gear vs. the grind for equal PvP gear will not be equal. It might be easier to gear up faster raiding or it might be faster to do it PvPing. If its faster to gear up raiding, then it puts pvp'ers at a disadvantage since they will have to grind longer to be equal. If it is faster to gear up PvPing, then the raiders will have a disadvantage when they enter WZ's. It just screws everything up.

 

Someone mentioned Rift. I have PvP'ed in that game basically since it came out. They have separate PvP gear too. However, they made some vital mistakes. For instance, the top tier PvP armor (rank 8) is better than all raiding gear except hammerknell. Well, since R8 and Hammerknell came out at the same time, guess what happened? All the raiders went to warfronts and AFK'ed in order to get geared up for hammerknell since the R8 gear was better than their current raiding gear AND faster to get. It was a major PITA for those of us who actually PvP'ed for fun and not for raid gear since we had to put up with tons of AFK'ers. And the raiders who didn't AFK but actually tried sucked because they had no PvP gear on.

 

But that isn't the only problem. Rift has a PvE only stat called "hit" which is vital if you want to be able to actually land your attacks on raid bosses. You would think this vital stat, which is missing from PvP gear, would keep PvP gear from being BIS in raids. But it didn't. Why? Because only SOME of the raid armor has hit on it. Thus, PvP gear without hit was still better than PvE gear without hit. So this gave raiders even more incentive to AFK in warfronts. They would just get their 2 or 3 pieces of PvP armor which doesn't have hit and replace their weaker PvE gear which also doesn't have hit on it anyway. Trion should have simply put hit on EVERY piece of raid gear (and not only on some of i)t which would have stopped certain pieces of PvP gear from being BIS for raiding.

 

But it worked the other way too. Oddly enough, Trion made it so that hit worked in PvP combat too. So a guy with more hit has more of a chance of circumventing your dodge/parries. This obviously isn't fair to those of us who used PvP gear only as we have absolutely zero hit on our gear. So what some people would do is use their raid weapons (with lots of hit on them) and then just use PvP armor so they still get all the benefits of damage reduction. So they hit you more often, you dodge them less, but they still have just as much damage mitigation as you. PvP weapons do not have valor on them (the PvP stat), so there is absolutely NO reason to use them for PvP. Raid weapons are superior in every way in both PvP and PvE.

 

So, as you can see, gear separation is best if it is DONE RIGHT. I hope BW doesn't make the same mistakes Trion did by allowing certain pieces of gear to be BIS for everything.

[Hawdskinna]

I can't even conceive how people find the time to complain about THIS.

 

Wake up to five years ago. Realize that if something has been going on so long, with so many different venues, its YOU that probably had your math/concepts wrong.

 

It good, needed, and I'm not going on the 5000 word rant to explain to every whiner why their complaints are stupid.

 

My suggestion is to stop complaining that you aren't as geared as people who played this game as much as they did. If I played 200 more hours than you, I !@#$ well better have better gear than you, or I'D be the one complaining.

 

As it stand, the PvP gear doesnt take a long time to grind, and is available to everyone solo. Do the dailies, to Ilum.. the battlemaster gear is marginally better than the ones you can get at any valor rank. There are 20 free bags available to you every week with what seems like a 10-20 % chance to drop rank 2 gear...

 

They are winning cause they > you.... not cause of the expertise.

[ShwagATK]

And all of it blows!

 

Resilience was an dumb thing to do when Blizzard did it. It was changed quite a few times over the years, and it still sucks. They even added another stat in the latest expansion, don't remember what it's called, Mastery? Anyway, that didn't turn out well either.

 

The very IDEA that you need a separate set for PvE and PvP is asinine. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is. If people want to gear up in PvP, they should be able to, and if they want to PvE in said gear, they should be able to. And vice versa. But needing to raid for PvE gear and PvP for PvP gear, with a PvP stat that only applies to PvP? Dumb. What's next? Leveling gear? Only way to gain XP is by wearing leveling gear?

 

1) use your brain. nearly HALF of an MMO community nowadays does either one or the other. pvp OR pve. how is this asinine? how is this the way it is lolol. if people want to gear up to pvp....then ima gear up to just pvp. no sir, THAT is just the way it is.

 

2) breaking news - pvp stat applies to pvp, more in at 11. wat? i dont fkn want mastery rating for my warrior i want crit. CRIT. CRIT AND ATK POWER. not mastery. mastery i DO WANT IN PVE however. next..

 

3) there is leveling gear. why shouldn't there be in the first place? oh hay i played the game for 5 years and i want to reroll a new char....but not do the same leveling process and speed ive done for 5 years. LEVELING GEAR YAAAAAAAY BONUS EXP. theres nothing interesting about GETTING your character to level cap over and over and over again. ( yes in swtor the story is amazing, and i'll always take my time to watch the new story lines but i'll be damned if you think for 2 seconds i want to grind my face off 50 levels at the initial speed.

[DirtyStain]

If the biggest issue is that it raises the bar for new players, I'd call it a non issue.

[ShwagATK]

Let me spell this out for you...

 

I am a PvPer. I have no interest in Raiding. I DON'T want a PvP stat, because A) it deters new players from trying/participating/functioning in PvP because the "more experience" players have a stat handicap, B) it lowers the skill cap in encounters, and C) is annoying as **** when you roll an alt.

 

I have no issue with PvP gear, but a PvP stat just breaks PvP for new players, not raiders. What should happen is this:

 

PvP Chest

+100 Endurance

+100 Aim

+75 Crit

+25 Surge

 

PvE Chest

+100 Endurance

+100 Aim

+75 Crit

+25 Surge

+50 PvE Expertise

 

Now you have a system where0

A) PvP Gear is just as good as the best Raid gear in PvP -- there is a diminished gear gap and skill can prevail.

 

B) A PvPer can use their PvP gear to raid, but at -10% efficiency compared to a similar tiered gear Raider.

 

Both of these promote participation in both forms of Endgame. And most importantly,

 

C) It makes PvP more accesible and fun to newer players, instead of a test of patience from being steamrolled by people solely because they have played longer, not better.

 

 

well then i must be the only jerk around to not care about new players and how soft they are nowadays. you know what i said when i saw a full season 3 warrior steam roll my fresh 70 ***? that was gdlk, i wish i was him, im gonna be him. why in the world should i let a FRESH player steam roll me because his gear was on par with mine? im all about the skill > gear but everyone who really knows, SKILL + Gear > skill + no gear. thats how it is, thats how it should be, thats how it should stay.

 

i won't fight a samurai whos been trained in the ways of discipline and martial arts ( lets relate this to grinding in pvp... ) with a thousand folded blade. why? cuz my kmart *** sword won't cut it ( HAH GET IT? )

 

 

edit: btw youre just using the resilience thing but backwards to further your biased judgement on expertise. so what youre saying is, pvp gear should have the same stats as pve gear but be 10% less efficient in PVE? well ***.....thats literally the same thing as saying pvp gear should have the same stats as pve gear but pvp gear has 10% expertise .....lololol

Edited January 6, 2012 by ShwagATK

[Masturomenos]

What do Wow and Rift have in common seeing as some one else mentioned the names.... They both have extremely low new PvP player uptake. Getting people to enter PvP in those games and stick with it long enough to be on par gear wise (Or close enough to be competitive) simply doesn't happen, at a rate that replaces outgoing players.

 

Both of those games have PvP communities that loose members faster then they replace them with new Ex PvE Playing converts. The PvP stats make it VERY VERY hard to introduce new players to the fantastic world of PvP that we all get. I think most of us will grind on alts when we have too ect... because we are already hooked. There was a time when every one of us was not a PVP player... admit it none of us came to PvP first.

 

The bracketing that PvP stats creates drives away growth. It will become a problem for TOR in the future as well.

 

Last time i checked no one plays rift cause its boing and 10 million people play wow. So a good game is doin fine a bad one is just bad. No one puts resilience or valor as the reason they quit. The problem is not expertise needs to go the problem is u dont have any. Stop trying to make both games the same. Pve and pvp are seperate and it needs to stay that way. People lose with or without it and its very easy to get. Your logic is flawed. How about you dont get better raid gear and use t1 for every raid and xpac released somehow i feel u wouldnt do that. So lets just raid to pvp cause that makes it fair for people who dont want to raid. Stop crying go pvp or pve or both thats what u have choices no one wants one gear set to be useful. No better yet lets just remove expertise and double endurance or other stats s raiding is trivialized. Oh never mind again addng those stats is exactly what expertise does without making raiding useless and able to be cheated thru with only pvping. Kinda funny how all these kill pvp gear threads disappear once everyone has it in 2 3 months except for the occasiona new player starting a thread every couple weeks/months. Pvpers deserve their gear and so do pvers its not ur call so ur feelings dont hurt. Anyway with it in place u can blame it for why u lose without it what ur excuse for losing?

 

Heres a riddle? What are u?

 

 

 

Answer:

A badiebadbadbadbadbaddie

 

So many core issues need fixed an threads like this ruin the real issues that a new game faces. I deserve to get beat by people who workd to 50 and geared faster then me its their right. Oh except ur the same people posting in a month saying pve weapons shouldnt b allowed in pvp right?

[zPeanutz]

this is the most ridiculous thing ive ever heard. okay now for my opinions...

 

expertise is fine the way it is. PVPers PVP, while raiders pve. back in the vanilla days of wow a t2 mage would run through and nuke every single person in one - two shots. why? pvp gear didnt exist and i had somewhat of a life to where i couldn't make raiding my job ( although i will say i wish i could have at the time )

 

pvp gear came into play with resilience and all of the sudden those tier'd players no longer could insta nuke, infact they were getting blown up. WHY NOT? dont bring your pve gear to pvp and expect to be resilient ( ...resilience get it? )

 

 

They could simply reward the same gear, whether you pvp or raid. Your WoW example doesn't really prove that expertise (or resilience) is not an unnecessary stat. WoW doing it doesn't make it the best option. You were right about the raiders dominating but it doesn't disprove the OPs point.

 

If you could achieve the same gear in warzones / world pvp and raids then its a completely even playing field. Is that not what you want as a PvPer? A challenge, and a chance to prove your better? The PvP stat is a bit of a crutch and that's coming from someone who has focused on PvP in every MMO I have played.

 

Same gear means its a battle of skill. Why require 2 sets of gear for those that do both PvP and PvE (other than the time sink)? You should not feel proud of a kill if you happened upon someone in the open world who currently has his raid gear on.

 

Now with all that said... the game is in motion, it launched this way, and likely wont be changed. Very likely.

[S-m-i-t-t-y]

well then i must be the only jerk around to not care about new players and how soft they are nowadays. you know what i said when i saw a full season 3 warrior steam roll my fresh 70 ***? that was gdlk, i wish i was him, im gonna be him. why in the world should i let a FRESH player steam roll me because his gear was on par with mine? im all about the skill > gear but everyone who really knows, SKILL + Gear > skill + no gear. thats how it is, thats how it should be, thats how it should stay.

 

i won't fight a samurai whos been trained in the ways of discipline and martial arts ( lets relate this to grinding in pvp... ) with a thousand folded blade. why? cuz my kmart *** sword won't cut it ( HAH GET IT? )

 

I agree with this 100%. Raiders spend countless hours raiding for their gear, and so do pvper's just we get a benefit in pvp because thats how we like to enjoy the game. So why should raiders who casually pvp come in to warzones at par with those of us who strictly pvp.

 

Competition is about bettering yourself, you do that by working for the pvp gear and learning how to pvp and beating other players. Its not meant to be easy, but challenging.