lokivoid Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 That's right, it discourages new people trying pvp the longer it stays in the game. Your playing a gear based MMO, they earend there expertise (thats only valid in pvp). and honestly the mitigation it provides is minium considering the loss of a extra slot per item. PVE gear is capable of much higher DPS potential in pvp. Champ gear only offers around 11% modifier. You can achieve more with PVE gear, wile it wont be duel role like expertise is it will still achieve a greater modifier in one role or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macsimus Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 People need to stop crying, PvE gear still does good in PvP. I've switched out some of my pvp set, becasuse the PvE set bonuses are better, increased my base stat singnificantly which also increases my crit, and I melt face. It's not that big a deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapuchinSeven Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) We grind PVP and rewarded by Expertise gears. Now why do you PVErs whine about not being able to match up to the seasoned PVP players. We let you PVE carebears alone with your raids and raid gears so keep your hands off our Expertise gears. Translation, I'm bad and I need my crutch, keep your hands off my crutch! Please note before you reply, I'm a PVPer in PVP gear. People need to stop crying, PvE gear still does good in PvP. I've switched out some of my pvp set, becasuse the PvE set bonuses are better, increased my base stat singnificantly which also increases my crit, and I melt face. It's not that big a deal. You're missing the point. Edited January 10, 2012 by CapuchinSeven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aishiki Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Translation, I'm bad and I need my crutch, keep your hands off my crutch! Please note before you reply, I'm a PVPer in PVP gear. Then you should understand why Expertise must stay. Amongst the PVPers, all of the expertise stats will balance out as we will get the same sets eventually. Why is it that PVErs can raid and get those extra stats yet no one rahrah about them yet people demand to remove our rewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDutch Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Your playing a gear based MMO, they earend there expertise (thats only valid in pvp). and honestly the mitigation it provides is minium considering the loss of a extra slot per item. PVE gear is capable of much higher DPS potential in pvp. Champ gear only offers around 11% modifier. You can achieve more with PVE gear, wile it wont be duel role like expertise is it will still achieve a greater modifier in one role or the other. And while we're waiting a couple months for lockouts so people can get a full set of T4 to dominate players without expertise, what has happened meanwhile? 2 weeks in and people already got the gear that supposedly was designed to counter PvE gear that people don't even have. Now the imbalance this gear created was enough to warrant creating an entirely new bracket... seems like that bandaid really worked out. If they would have put in a raid only stat used for PvE progression instead then the difference between 49 and 50 wouldn't have been something that required an urgent patch. What is the point of bolstering? Enabling people to play with/against eachother. If that is a good thing, then why would you want to do things that split them up instead? Gear based PvP is a double-edged sword. If you make the gear take a long time to obtain your veteran PvP population will drive off new players every time. If you make the gear quick and easy to obtain then it makes progression trivial and pointless. Either way you sacrifice competition for the sake of a system that is constantly fighting itself to maintain a sustainable population of people that actually want to PvP instead of do this PvE-style grind for gear crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapuchinSeven Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Then you should understand why Expertise must stay. Amongst the PVPers, all of the expertise stats will balance out as we will get the same sets eventually. Why is it that PVErs can raid and get those extra stats yet no one rahrah about them yet people demand to remove our rewards. It's already been pointed out about 100 times in this thread the better solution for expertise and moving it to PVE gear, I'm not going to type it yet again. Anyone who would disagree with that solution simply wants to keep expertise on PVP gear so that they can dominate new comers in PVP not with skill or team work but with a crutch to make them feel they are good. "Among the PVPers" is why PVP has died in almost every single MMO to date, stagnation equals death and new players are the life blood of real PVP. Edited January 10, 2012 by CapuchinSeven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Streptococo Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Let me spell this out for you... I am a PvPer. I have no interest in Raiding. I DON'T want a PvP stat, because A) it deters new players from trying/participating/functioning in PvP because the "more experience" players have a stat handicap, B) it lowers the skill cap in encounters, and C) is annoying as **** when you roll an alt. I have no issue with PvP gear, but a PvP stat just breaks PvP for new players, not raiders. What should happen is this: PvP Chest +100 Endurance +100 Aim +75 Crit +25 Surge PvE Chest +100 Endurance +100 Aim +75 Crit +25 Surge +50 PvE Expertise Now you have a system where0 A) PvP Gear is just as good as the best Raid gear in PvP -- there is a diminished gear gap and skill can prevail. B) A PvPer can use their PvP gear to raid, but at -10% efficiency compared to a similar tiered gear Raider. Both of these promote participation in both forms of Endgame. And most importantly, C) It makes PvP more accesible and fun to newer players, instead of a test of patience from being steamrolled by people solely because they have played longer, not better. And you say you are a PvPer??? xD Let me DOUBT IT. Aren't you handicapping a 10% to PvPers who would like to do raids? So your solution is to allow PvErs go to PvP with their maxed gear which would have same stats than PvP gear but when PvPers go to PvE have a -10 penalty? xD I don't care about raids, in fact I don't care about PvE content but... why PvPers have to have -10 PvE? If this is your solution, my reply is the system is PERFECT as it is, cos this way PvPers and PvErs have to do the exact work/effort to max out both of their gears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapuchinSeven Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 And you say you are a PvPer??? xD Let me DOUBT IT. Aren't you handicapping a 10% to PvPers who would like to do raids? So your solution is to allow PvErs go to PvP with their maxed gear which would have same stats than PvP gear but when PvPers go to PvE have a -10 penalty? xD I don't care about raids, in fact I don't care about PvE content but... why PvPers have to have -10 PvE? If this is your solution, my reply is the system is PERFECT as it is, cos this way PvPers and PvErs have to do the exact work/effort to max out both of their gears. ....dude are you being serious or is English just not your first language...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mastersloup Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) It's already been pointed out about 100 times in this thread the better solution for expertise and moving it to PVE gear, I'm not going to type it yet again. Anyone who would disagree with that solution simply wants to keep expertise on PVP gear so that they can dominate new comers in PVP not with skill or team work but with a crutch to make them feel they are good. "Among the PVPers" is why PVP has died in almost every single MMO to date, stagnation equals death and new players are the life blood of real PVP. Not everyone want to farm PvE scripted fight over and over again so they can PvP "Among the PVPers" is why PVP has died in almost every single MMO to date, stagnation equals death and new players are the life blood of real PVP. You must be kidding, one of the reason PvP in wow is considered *********** **** is because you have to raid in order to have access to BiS PvP trinket and weapon Edited January 10, 2012 by mastersloup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aishiki Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I am a healer and I don't feel much difference with the champion set I've got. It's just a slight advantage and survivability but I still die when I get zerged by new or old PVPers so your point of making it as a crutch is moot. I chose a PVP server for a reason, to PVP not to PVE. While there're still people who like to PVE in our server, PVP is the main activity. What do you say in this situation? That those minor raiders will gain advantage over the PVPers in the PVP server? I have no knowledge of NA servers but from my experience, PVP gears did not kill PVP in European servers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haralin Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) The Solution ist one Set which can be purchased by PvE Raid Token and/or PvP Token this is very simple and none has a disadvantage Edited January 10, 2012 by Haralin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowiehero Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Reverse bolster everyone to a baseline of stats and remove stim / adrenal contribution from PvP. Solved. Real PvP'ers shouldn't care about all of that, after all, an even playing field = challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogfatherxx Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 This is just a dumb debate. Those that PVP will get the expertise gear and will get a small advantage over the newcomers. Those newcomers will then pvp and get their own expertise gear and get their small advantage over even newer players. This is the way it is and the way that it should be. Occasional PVPers should not expect to come in and be on a level playing field with dedicated PVPers in a gear based MMO. If you don't like where you fall in the system, PVP more and get the gear. It might not seem fair to you, but that is just the way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aishiki Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 This is just a dumb debate. Those that PVP will get the expertise gear and will get a small advantage over the newcomers. Those newcomers will then pvp and get their own expertise gear and get their small advantage over even newer players. This is the way it is and the way that it should be. Occasional PVPers should not expect to come in and be on a level playing field with dedicated PVPers in a gear based MMO. If you don't like where you fall in the system, PVP more and get the gear. It might not seem fair to you, but that is just the way it is. ^ 10char Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatless Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Expertise is good for the game. It's there to prevent pvp gear being as good as or better than pve gear in raids. I do not want to pvp for my best pre-raid gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDutch Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Expertise is good for the game. It's there to prevent pvp gear being as good as or better than pve gear in raids. I do not want to pvp for my best pre-raid gear. Too late, you're better off PvP'ing for gear and skipping T1/T2 PvE gear as it is. Everyone understands how the system "should" work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iFoo Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Exactly and I don't want to have to PvE raid as I don't enjoy it, I don't find playing vs scripted AI challenging. I have PvP'd most of my game time and am getting PvP gear to be competitive in PvP, if someone went and killed a raid boss and had equal gear as me after the countless huttball matches I'd done I wouldn't play. The expertise separates the 2 different gaming types, catering for both and meaning that one side does not have to do the other in order to compete in which ever style they prefer. If they want the best of both worlds they need to farm both types which imo is entirely fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vindexus Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 And while we're waiting a couple months for lockouts so people can get a full set of T4 to dominate players without expertise, what has happened meanwhile? 2 weeks in and people already got the gear that supposedly was designed to counter PvE gear that people don't even have. Now the imbalance this gear created was enough to warrant creating an entirely new bracket... seems like that bandaid really worked out. If they would have put in a raid only stat used for PvE progression instead then the difference between 49 and 50 wouldn't have been something that required an urgent patch. What is the point of bolstering? Enabling people to play with/against eachother. If that is a good thing, then why would you want to do things that split them up instead? Gear based PvP is a double-edged sword. If you make the gear take a long time to obtain your veteran PvP population will drive off new players every time. If you make the gear quick and easy to obtain then it makes progression trivial and pointless. Either way you sacrifice competition for the sake of a system that is constantly fighting itself to maintain a sustainable population of people that actually want to PvP instead of do this PvE-style grind for gear crap. ^ this guy gets it. The solution to long term PvP viability is to take the gear grind out of it. And for you people who want to add Expertise to Raid gear, what exactly does that accomplish? Now if I want to PvP, I have to raid? What? You want people to care about PvP, create a ladder system and organize it. Have people compete for epeen. Post stats on a leaderboard for top healing/kills for the day/week/month. PvP doesn't have to be about only getting PvP gear. If you remove the gear from PvP you also no longer have to tune your PvE content around people using PvP gear in PvE. People can no longer skip doing HM FPs and lower level Ops by grinding their way through Champ gear. You might actually have to PvE to like.. do PvE content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDutch Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 The expertise separates the 2 different gaming types, catering for both and meaning that one side does not have to do the other in order to compete in which ever style they prefer. If they want the best of both worlds they need to farm both types which imo is entirely fair. Expertise does not keep people in PvP gear from doing PvE content right now. You can get PvP gear easier/faster that will enable you to farm tokens in PvE. Expertise does not keep people in PvE gear from destroying PvP players right now. Nobody is running around in full T4. If they were, PvP gear with the same rating is still quicker to get, regardless of the expertise stat. What expertise does do right now is create a gap between PvP players in PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aishiki Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 What gap exactly? If you want PVP set, you grind PVP just as you grind PVE raids. You will lose few times, you might be destroyed but eventually everyone will be on the same level ground since even if you lose, you will get comms and bags anyway. Out of 8 people in the WZ, how many of those have T4 gears? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDutch Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 You will lose few times, you might be destroyed but eventually everyone will be on the same level ground since even if you lose, you will get comms and bags anyway. If you're going to be on the same level ground anyway... and that's a good thing, right? Then why don't you skip breaking up the players and use a system that continues to bring them together instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirorx Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I don't understand it either. Personally i would have just given this epic gear one extra slot for an extra stat or something and everything would be customizable. The diffrence betwwen pvp and pve gear could just be cosmetic IMO. For most of us even that small of a change would be totally worth getting it still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirorx Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Reverse bolster everyone to a baseline of stats and remove stim / adrenal contribution from PvP. Solved. Real PvP'ers shouldn't care about all of that, after all, an even playing field = challenge. I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aishiki Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 If you're going to be on the same level ground anyway... and that's a good thing, right? Then why don't you skip breaking up the players and use a system that continues to bring them together instead? Because we have to work to be on that same level ground? Why do you expect a person who does 5 WZ per week to be on the same level as the person who does 5 WZ per day doesn't make any sense to me. I don't even... WTS> Logic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vyrzeden Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 My 2 cents (from both a casual PvE and PvP player) 1) Expertise is a good idea overall. 2) I'm not a fan of having 2 sets of gear, one for each. As another poster mentioned have Expertise tied to Valor Ranks. Take it a step further and instead of giving 50's their own tier, break tiers up by valor rank (1-10, 11-20, etc.). You keep Bolster for pre-50's and it ensures everyone is going up against similar "expertise" ranked players. This way, PvE and PvP gear can be itemized the same with the PvP stat still being tied to strictly doing PvP. In addition, it will help solve the problem of "fresh" PvPers always fighting decked-out expertise PvPers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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