"Addons are stupid and WoW is easy."

[Braushh]

Some of the balance issues over the lifetime of WoW would have never came to light had damage meters been disallowed. The playerbase tends to exaggerate some issues to the point where a 2 or 3% difference in DPS between two classes is blown out of proportion to the point where the playerbase thinks it's 10 to 15%.

 

Remove damage meters and much of that QQ would have never happened in the first place.

 

Indeed, because they are a player base. When people observed statistics and then discussed them in the forums, it doesn't mean it hurt the game. You could even argue it helped improved balance in the game. Much of Blizzards data and information was gathered from members of the community in such a manner.

 

The funny part about all of this is you can easily go into a warzone and observe the damage/healing done by classes/specs of equal level and come to many conclusions about the balance of classes in the game currently.

 

Like I said, taking away options such as meters will never prevent min/maxing, players complaining about imbalance, or any of these issues. It only serves to make it more simple for the average player to understand them.

 

Where is the problem in that?

[Itchyscalp]

Back in my WoW days I was excluded from a raid because I wasn't using an optimal rotation. My DPS was still very good but because the elitists saw that I wasn't throwing a high enough % of heroic strikes they removed me.

 

The fact that these so called "elitists" CAN'T see my rotation and I can't be excluded for something so insignifigant is a huge relief. I don't get caught up in a numbers game and I can actually play the way I want, not the way others think I should.

[Raeln]

Indeed, because they are a player base. When people observed statistics and then discussed them in the forums, it doesn't mean it hurt the game. You could even argue it helped improved balance in the game. Much of Blizzards data and information was gathered from members of the community in such a manner.

 

The funny part about all of this is you can easily go into a warzone and observe the damage/healing done by classes/specs of equal level and come to many conclusions about the balance of classes in the game currently.

 

Like I said, taking away options such as meters will never prevent min/maxing, players complaining about imbalance, or any of these issues. It only serves to make it more simple for the average player to understand them.

 

Where is the problem in that?

 

You won't get an argument from me that damage meters are an excellent tool. Like many good tools, they are only good in the hands of a few and are downright dangerous in the hands of many.

 

The playerbase is the heartbeat of the game. Bioware could have two classes perfectly balanced with each other but if the playerbase believes one class is better than the other, Bioware will have to do something about it or the lesser class will literally die on the vine. Damage meters (and other addons) tend to bring out these shifts in playerbase theory.

 

The game will be better overall if they are never allowed. Too few players use them responsibly. Too many players will use them to segregate players into a virtual caste system.

[Braushh]

You won't get an argument from me that damage meters are an excellent tool. Like many good tools, they are only good in the hands of a few and are downright dangerous in the hands of many.

 

The playerbase is the heartbeat of the game. Bioware could have two classes perfectly balanced with each other but if the playerbase believes one class is better than the other, Bioware will have to do something about it or the lesser class will literally die on the vine. Damage meters (and other addons) tend to bring out these shifts in playerbase theory.

 

The game will be better overall if they are never allowed. Too few players use them responsibly. Too many players will use them to segregate players into a virtual caste system.

 

I'm not suggesting meters are the greatest thing ever. Like you, I agree they have both benefits as well as negatives. My point is simply that you lessen your player base overall by limiting those options. See: hardcore PvE progression players. (I'm not saying I am one of them, but this forum is filled with those types of players complaining about this issue, and many others concerning what they feel is a lack of developer interest in that area, to this point)

 

And you are joking about segregating players in caste systems, right? Meters hardly do that..it's ITEMS that segregate. A meter is a tool that aids people. It's hardmode gear, nightmare gear, item sets..those are your true caste system culprits. If Bioware was truely concerned about that, there would be no difficulty modes, no varying sets of tier gear.

[Karnyvor]

Where's your heroic -anything- kill?

 

WoWs heroic endgame is still one of the most difficult challenges in the gaming world. SWTOR is pathetic in comparison. However, in terms of questing and solo play, SWTOR is much more challenging and I feel you really learn how to play your class to it's SOLO potential through doing the difficult elite story quests.

 

Also, no addons/customizing? Watch this game go the way of AoC in a few months. If you are truly a casual player, THEN WHY DO YOU CARE IF HARDCORE GAMERS USE ADDONS. How does someone elses customization ruin YOUR play?

 

If you say because they harass you for being bad by linking meters, I have bad news for you. You are actually bad, and someone pointed it out to you after carrying you through that content.

 

Wow is challenging is your parapalegic and missing both hands. All addons do is open code for hackers and cheaters and exploiters. If u were or are representative of the hardcore gaming community u wouldn't need addons or any other crutch as you would b able to see what was going on. Every operation, heroic andhard mode has been cleared without addons under a month after release.

 

Try this if u need an addon: DONT SUCK ANYMORE!!!!

Edited January 6, 2012 by Karnyvor

[Braushh]

And to add to that..you're suggesting players who want to group with other knowledgeable, skilled players are doing something wrong by your logic.

 

If a group of 3 players defeat a HM Flash Point on Tuesday, but then fail on it Wednesday with a new 4th DPS player, because now suddenly they can not beat a bosses enrage timer..youre telling me there is a problem with them realizing that the 4th DPS player was not provding enough damage to beat the encounter, compared to the player they used the night before?

 

I guess I just fail to see your point of why a tool such as a meter would ruin this game. I'm sorry if I would like to know if the people I am trying to progress through PvE content with are performing up to the standard that is required of the designed content.

[Raeln]

I'm not suggesting meters are the greatest thing ever. Like you, I agree they have both benefits as well as negatives. My point is simply that you lessen your player base overall by limiting those options. See: hardcore PvE progression players. (I'm not saying I am one of them, but this forum is filled with those types of players complaining about this issue, and many others concerning what they feel is a lack of developer interest in that area, to this point)

 

I could care less about "hardcore" players. They typically account for less than 2% of the entire playerbase and are the type of player that quickly burns out on content and unsubs until the next content patch/expansion.

 

I've been hardcore. I know what's it like. If I have to return to a hardcore playstyle just to experience content, then I'll find another game.

 

And you are joking about segregating players in caste systems, right? Meters hardly do that..it's ITEMS that segregate. A meter is a tool that aids people. It's hardmode gear, nightmare gear, item sets..those are your true caste system culprits. If Bioware was truely concerned about that, there would be no difficulty modes, no varying sets of tier gear.

 

Not joking.

 

Damage meters lead people to create virtual gating mechanisms. They'll filter people out if they cannot achieve their arbitrarily set DPS benchmarks - which seem to have a habit of being an enormous percentage higher than what is required to actually do the content. So yes, a virtual caste system - where you are among the "elite" if you can attain X DPS and you are a "slave" if you cannot.

 

Also, damage meters tend to destroy support classes because damage meters cannot properly report the effect CC has on making encounters easier for tanks and healers. The contribution of buffs and debuffs are also not easily displayed. This is part of the "good tool in a few hands, bad tool in the hands of many" problem.

 

It's really something best left out of the game.

[DerexSWTOR]

You won't get an argument from me that damage meters are an excellent tool. Like many good tools, they are only good in the hands of a few and are downright dangerous in the hands of many.

 

The playerbase is the heartbeat of the game. Bioware could have two classes perfectly balanced with each other but if the playerbase believes one class is better than the other, Bioware will have to do something about it or the lesser class will literally die on the vine. Damage meters (and other addons) tend to bring out these shifts in playerbase theory.

 

The game will be better overall if they are never allowed. Too few players use them responsibly. Too many players will use them to segregate players into a virtual caste system.

 

Exactly.

 

My initial statement still stands. I used Recount religiously in WoW, I had an offline DPS meter in EQ that I spooled logs out to...hell I even WROTE one in my EQ days when the DPS meter I was using didn't do it exactly how I wanted it to.

 

They're bad for a game...period. You want to throw WoW's balance problems into Bliz's lap as their issue.

 

In some way's you're right, Bliz was ultimately responsible for balance in their game, no other entity could have fixed the problems...I apprecaite it. Have you ever considered, however, how you modify balance in an MMO with classes and races and millions of players worldwide?

 

It's not just something you can tweek and tune overnight, there's not a database table somewhere where you can put a number into and poof, all classes DPS are now balanced. The problem with making the numbers available is that the player base doesn't run a business, they're not involved in a programming project of this size and magnetude.

 

They feel "I've proven that my class is worse than your class, I should get fixed. I'm waiting till the next patch and I'm done."

 

They're right, they HAVE proven that their class is under-balanced...that doesn't help matters...no company can react as fast as their player base can "prove" a problem. And in many times, acting can be considered detrimental to either the revenue stream or to game balance overall.

 

Let me give you two examples:

 

* Assume 60% of your players play rogues. Are you really going to throw a nurf out at rogues? That's a revenue stream issue and marketing is unlikely to let you.

 

* Assume your end game raid for this content was balanced with rouges doing twice the DPS as any other class? How do you re-tune so melee warriors are in balance with rogue DPS? The skills aren't the same, the timers aren't the same the abilities aren't the same, you can't simply turn a switch halving rogue DPS and multiplying warrior DPS by 1.5 and say "all's well". You could totally invalidate your end game content, all of it, through a simple tuning of classes.

 

You don't run an MMO, you have NO idea what kinds of things the developers of an MMO face or are expected to perform. Claiming it's Bliz's fault they don't have balanced classes is uninformed at best.

 

And that leads back to the playerbase and the information you provide. Right now, in EQ and in WoW The playerbase drove who got nurfed and who got buffed. No MMO Producer would acknowledge that, but we all know that's how it works. If enough classes ***** loud enough that Class X is too powerful, a nurf bat will find it's way down on class X.

 

This is done BECAUSE the player base has access to the data, they can aggregate the DPS data and determine who's best and thus they'll let the axe fall on the "best" if it's not them.

 

It's a bad system. As much as I LIKE being able to tune my character to be the most efficient it can be, as much as I LOVE theorycrafting and testing rotations and equipment, it's TERRIBLE for a game for the players to have that much information.

 

They have no idea how to use it, they become elitist when they min/max and they feel that data should drive changes that they have NO IDEA what the full effect would be on the game as a whole.

 

Players are Short Sighted, Data Driven, Elitists who, given a piece of data, will decide that their proof should drive how the game is developed.

 

I am 100% against giving players any data that allows them to compare themselves against another class. Class Strife may be rife now, but it's all guesswork based off of incomplete information. Give them a DPS meter and now, all of a sudden, the real eletist stuff will start.

 

--Illydth

[Mokallaz]

You won't get an argument from me that damage meters are an excellent tool. Like many good tools, they are only good in the hands of a few and are downright dangerous in the hands of many.

 

The playerbase is the heartbeat of the game. Bioware could have two classes perfectly balanced with each other but if the playerbase believes one class is better than the other, Bioware will have to do something about it or the lesser class will literally die on the vine. Damage meters (and other addons) tend to bring out these shifts in playerbase theory.

 

The game will be better overall if they are never allowed. Too few players use them responsibly. Too many players will use them to segregate players into a virtual caste system.

 

Yes, because these forums don't have any cries for nerfs or buffs at all!

[Raeln]

Yes, because these forums don't have any cries for nerfs or buffs at all!

 

Imagine how much worse it would be if the players thought they had any data, however misconstrued, provided to them by damage meters in game.

[DerexSWTOR]

And to add to that..you're suggesting players who want to group with other knowledgeable, skilled players are doing something wrong by your logic.

 

If a group of 3 players defeat a HM Flash Point on Tuesday, but then fail on it Wednesday with a new 4th DPS player, because now suddenly they can not beat a bosses enrage timer..youre telling me there is a problem with them realizing that the 4th DPS player was not provding enough damage to beat the encounter, compared to the player they used the night before?

 

I guess I just fail to see your point of why a tool such as a meter would ruin this game. I'm sorry if I would like to know if the people I am trying to progress through PvE content with are performing up to the standard that is required of the designed content.

 

That's not how I am complaining about DPS meters being used. But then again, in this situation as you point out you don't NEED dps meters to determine the 4th guy isn't pulling his weight do you?

 

DPS meters are used for Class vs. Class comparisons. It's used to determine that when I want a tank X class is who I should be looking for, with "Y" class being unable to properly perform that job because they're some % behind class X.

 

THAT is where elitism comes from and THAT is where the class ************ comes from.

[Syridan]

Where's your heroic -anything- kill?

 

WoWs heroic endgame is still one of the most difficult challenges in the gaming world. SWTOR is pathetic in comparison. However, in terms of questing and solo play, SWTOR is much more challenging and I feel you really learn how to play your class to it's SOLO potential through doing the difficult elite story quests.

 

Also, no addons/customizing? Watch this game go the way of AoC in a few months. If you are truly a casual player, THEN WHY DO YOU CARE IF HARDCORE GAMERS USE ADDONS. How does someone elses customization ruin YOUR play?

 

If you say because they harass you for being bad by linking meters, I have bad news for you. You are actually bad, and someone pointed it out to you after carrying you through that content.

 

I apologize in advance if what I'm about to say has been said before.

 

No one here cares about being good. All of us here care about what gaming is all about: Having fun and enjoying the story. This is where you say "but being bad isn't fun!" I reply "Actually it can be more fun than you think."

 

I never played WoW for long because I was tired of asking for help and being laughed at and scorned instead. So I came here and found a nice gaming environment where everyone supported each other and even in PvP didn't mock the others. In wow you would be kicked out of a group because you weren't the best and you didn't put out the max damage. Here we don't have to worry about that.

 

If you really enjoy Wow with its trolls and addons, then by all means return to them. We will stay here and enjoy each moment of this game.

 

I will never return to this thread. Any comments made against me will be, as such, meaningless.

 

Bad form Zorke.

[DerexSWTOR]

Yes, because these forums don't have any cries for nerfs or buffs at all!

 

The point Mok is not that class complaints aren't there, of course they are, some people just like to complain and won't be happy unless they can.

 

The point is that right now, without real numbers, you have no PROOF that sorcerers are behind snipers in dps. Each time you run an instance you may be able to say "we got through last time with a sniper but failed with a sorcerer", but for each of those you're going to also experience a slothly sniper and a damn good sorcerer.

 

You may be able to go to PVP and see "who's best" but that rarely carries over to PVE well.

 

I play a sorcerer, I have gotten through content I don't feel ANYONE has a right to get through, I feel my class is overpowered and I expect to see a nurf to it. Then I get talking with my friends and find out they also got through the same stuff and I no longer feel I'm so overpowered...or I feel they are. They then get farther and I feel they are passing content I can't pass...till I get there, and realize I can.

 

Right now, it's all guesswork, and any given player of any given class can get it's chance at end game because numbers aren't available to determine who's best and who's not.

 

It's a much different ballgame when the player community can empirically determine who is and isn't better than who else.

 

You don't need damage meters to see if your group mate sucks.

 

You need damage meters if you want to determine if your class sucks. That's why I don't like them.

Edited January 6, 2012 by DerexSWTOR

[EricOF]

i sure can,

 

vanilla rag was much harder. do you have any idea the amount of hours it took to farm the elemental fires to get the fire resist for 40 people?

 

 

To digress a bit, did it take more time than it did to gear up with Vex Thal keys in EQ?

 

If we're going to measure difficulty in terms of the time it takes to access and/or defeat content, WoW endgame never held a candle to Everquest. The whole notion of instancing pretty much ends that argument. Imagine the most time consuming, painful camps you've ever done and then imagine having to compete with other guilds for the spawns. Etc.

[kemmadar]

To digress a bit, did it take more time than it did to gear up with Vex Thal keys in EQ?

 

If we're going to measure difficulty in terms of the time it takes to access and/or defeat content, WoW endgame never held a candle to Everquest. The whole notion of instancing pretty much ends that argument. Imagine the most time consuming, painful camps you've ever done and then imagine having to compete with other guilds for the spawns. Etc.

 

VT something like that could never be brought back into modern-mmos, the kiddies would crap themselves and all rage quit... on second thought maybe the flagging and gearing up for fights like sraa should be brought back for the adults

[Genmysters]

This just goes to show that you have not a single clue what you are talking about.

 

Heroic Ragnaros was THE HARDEST encounter ever implemented into the game. You can't even deny that.

 

Heroic Rag was not the hardest encounter ever put into WOW shows you have not played the game long enough to know anything about it. Check wow progress. The top guilds got Heroic rag down in 2 weeks Paragon did it in 10 days. It took Paragon 6 weeks to kill heroic Litch King. Then number 2 guild in the world did litch king in 2 months. Took my guild 3 months to do heroic LK and only 1 to do heroic Rag pre nerf.

[Sythrasz]

Heroic Rag was not the hardest encounter ever put into WOW shows you have not played the game long enough to know anything about it. Check wow progress. The top guilds got Heroic rag down in 2 weeks Paragon did it in 10 days. It took Paragon 6 weeks to kill heroic Litch King. Then number 2 guild in the world did litch king in 2 months. Took my guild 3 months to do heroic LK and only 1 to do heroic Rag pre nerf.

 

Indeed, people should start using 4H instead, if they want to go by "time from encounter progress started till death of said encounter".

[DarthCackle]

People keep quantifying addons as a way to make the game easier but there were so many creative addons in the beginning of WoW that contributed to the transformation of the game in positive ways.

 

Third party developers gave Blizzard Devs ideas on how to improve things like the interface, etc. This is why I'd like to see them in SWTOR; it's a commentary on modern technology. Let the players decide how to play the game.. don't restrict and dictate. Let the game become organic and adaptable so all players can play the kind of game they want.

 

Not every addon is about min/maxing. I personally would love an addon for the Galactic Trade Market since I think there are plenty of areas to improve on it.

[ticklefist]

Where's your heroic -anything- kill?

 

WoWs heroic endgame is still one of the most difficult challenges in the gaming world. SWTOR is pathetic in comparison. However, in terms of questing and solo play, SWTOR is much more challenging and I feel you really learn how to play your class to it's SOLO potential through doing the difficult elite story quests.

 

Also, no addons/customizing? Watch this game go the way of AoC in a few months. If you are truly a casual player, THEN WHY DO YOU CARE IF HARDCORE GAMERS USE ADDONS. How does someone elses customization ruin YOUR play?

 

If you say because they harass you for being bad by linking meters, I have bad news for you. You are actually bad, and someone pointed it out to you after carrying you through that content.

 

Then play it. Stop requesting other games be WoW for you. If you're sick of WoW and want to try something new then ffs be willing to try something NEW.

[ticklefist]

This just goes to show that you have not a single clue what you are talking about.

 

Heroic Ragnaros was THE HARDEST encounter ever implemented into the game. You can't even deny that.

 

Woops. Kael'thas ver. 1.0 would like a word with you.

[DAntiVirus]

Wow, there is some serious aggrogance from some people in this thread. Many have a pretty level head but others, sheesh. Just because some of us do not spend 20 hours a day trying to figure out just the one perfect addon or min/max combination that will make our character uber elite does not mean we are 'bad'. I work 40+ hours a week at one job, 3 full time college classes, and 1 job for another 30 hours a week. I play when I can, as my time will permit.

 

I have not played a single PvP warzone at all. Why? Frankly because I keep seeing multiple post and videos about how much some people own 'bad' players in PvP. Great for them, bad for the 'casual' player. I know I am nowhere near that skill level. It is disheartning that some players insist other players have certain requirements to even play a match with them. I could have sworn this was a MMO not Uber Elite Only MMO.

[memoriesofprey]

You know, people in twitch-based games have a different word for addons.

 

They're called 'hacks'.

 

There's skill involved in making split-decisions and choosing your strategy based on the same GUI everyone else has- you're pitting the knowledge you have and your own sense of timing with your opponent's.

 

It adds more automation to the game, and if I wanted that, I'd play some game that forced me to code an entire combat system in order to be effective and pit them against other systems like we're playing pokemon.

 

Combat addons are a crutch. Other addons are perfectly fine.

Edited January 7, 2012 by memoriesofprey

[Pooglecoborg]

Indeed, people should start using 4H instead, if they want to go by "time from encounter progress started till death of said encounter".

 

Except it wouldn't be 4H then, since that fight only took top guilds a few weeks. D&T downed Loatheb in late July, then scored world first 4H on August 25th, ~4 weeks later. They didn't even raid half as much as Paragon does now either.

[FtenEQ]

Except it wouldn't be 4H then, since that fight only took top guilds a few weeks. D&T downed Loatheb in late July, then scored world first 4H on August 25th, ~4 weeks later. They didn't even raid half as much as Paragon does now either.

 

It should really be quanitified on, "total number of attempts." In which Heroic Rag is easily easily easily far and away the hardest encounter they ever had.

 

Personally, all this thread made me realize is that I miss logging on and being able to fully customize everything about my ui.

 

If you think addons played the game for you in wow, you have obviously never used them. They don't move you, they don't press your skills for you(if you used clcret or something like that I feel bad for you), they don't control the game at all.

 

If you think it's "too easy" then you're lying to yourself. It's not about the addons, difficulty comes from executing an encounter. Doing the things you need to do, when they need to be done.

 

That's much harder than you think. And it's just as hard in SWTOR.

[BreTuk]

Where's your heroic -anything- kill?

 

WoWs heroic endgame is still one of the most difficult challenges in the gaming world. SWTOR is pathetic in comparison. However, in terms of questing and solo play, SWTOR is much more challenging and I feel you really learn how to play your class to it's SOLO potential through doing the difficult elite story quests.

 

Also, no addons/customizing? Watch this game go the way of AoC in a few months. If you are truly a casual player, THEN WHY DO YOU CARE IF HARDCORE GAMERS USE ADDONS. How does someone elses customization ruin YOUR play?

 

If you say because they harass you for being bad by linking meters, I have bad news for you. You are actually bad, and someone pointed it out to you after carrying you through that content.

 

It's amazing how people degrade something thats been out ~3 weeks.