Balance to the force was not balance

[alienstalker]

Light side is balance, which is why Jedi strive for no emotions. 0 emotions is balance. 0 rage = 0 happiness. 0 = 0. Its harder to achieve balance when you add emotions. If you have 100 love, then to balance you would need 100 hate. 100 = 100. Such a balance is so difficult, that Jedi strive for 0 = 0.

 

This would mean that ANY emotion would lead to the dark side. Someone super compassionate and loving, but never angry would in fact be Dark side due to the lack of balance. 100 =/= 0. Much like lightning is created by an imbalance in the amount of charge the planet has and the sky has, Dark Side is created by that imbalance. Sith simply channel that lightning (sometimes literally) outside of the imbalance of emotions into a manifestation of the Force.

 

The light side of the Force was the facet aligned with compassion, selflessness, self-knowledge and enlightenment, healing, mercy and benevolence, while the dark side of the Force was the element aligned with hatred, fear, covetousness, anger, aggression, jealousy and malevolence.

 

Compassion, selflessness, mercy, and benevolence are still emotions. So to have balance you must have both the light side and the dark side. If There was no light side there would be imbalance, but if there was no dark side there would also be imbalance. Hatred, fear, anger, and malevolence are also emotions. So that means both sides have emotions.

 

positive emotions such as compassion and courage nurtured the light side of the Force.

Edited January 4, 2012 by alienstalker

[Bekkal]

A lot of people forget that Sith =/= "Dark side".

 

There are many, many Dark Siders within the SW Galaxy. There are a distinct number of Sith (two, at the time of the movies), and they espouse a very specific mindset.

[CoryCarniphex]

I know what GL says and SW is his personal universe where he is God. Let's all stop meta-rpging and pretend to be nothing more than a lone Jedi and a lone Sith on the farthest reach of either the Empire or the Republic. The Jedi believe they are the sole solution to facilitate peace. The Sith believe we can force a peace. I see neither is telling the truth once I watch the two sides in action. Both sides utilize excessive violence and hold ancient grudge matches against each other. In the time of the trilogies both sides despised each other. Don't forget Mace's angry visage compared to Anakin's reluctant cringe. I won't lie, I've always sympathized Sith. Despite the lure of the dark side, I have always thought the Jedi were not righteous but SELF righteous. If you did not believe their way then you were wrong and the only discussion happened on the other side of a lightsaber. Only a self righteous order could make the absolute statement that anyone who believes an absolute statement is a Sith (I know, that quote is 5 years old but it's still true.) If the Force is not a ying yang then why is there a dark side to begin with? Why do the Jedi seek to "force" babies from their toddler years to undergo what anyone in the modern western world of Earth would consider "radical religious therapy" to make them into perfect jihadis? I'm sorry, warriors for justice (by any other name). The Sith use their emotions to affect others and I am finding it harder and harder to believe that is a bad thing. If GL truly wanted everyone to believe the world is in balance so long as there is no dark side then he should have attempted to come up with a plausible explanation in the films. If there is no dark there can be no light. If there are no Sith the Jedi are tyrants. I will never give in to the tyranny of the Jedi Order just because so many weak fools tell me they are the way the truth and the light. Sometimes we make our own way. Suffer, those who stand before us, at least we gave you a choice.

[TheLonelyTusken]

I know what GL says and SW is his personal universe where he is God. Let's all stop meta-rpging and pretend to be nothing more than a lone Jedi and a lone Sith on the farthest reach of either the Empire or the Republic. The Jedi believe they are the sole solution to facilitate peace. The Sith believe we can force a peace. I see neither is telling the truth once I watch the two sides in action. Both sides utilize excessive violence and hold ancient grudge matches against each other. In the time of the trilogies both sides despised each other. Don't forget Mace's angry visage compared to Anakin's reluctant cringe. I won't lie, I've always sympathized Sith. Despite the lure of the dark side, I have always thought the Jedi were not righteous but SELF righteous. If you did not believe their way then you were wrong and the only discussion happened on the other side of a lightsaber. Only a self righteous order could make the absolute statement that anyone who believes an absolute statement is a Sith (I know, that quote is 5 years old but it's still true.) If the Force is not a ying yang then why is there a dark side to begin with? Why do the Jedi seek to "force" babies from their toddler years to undergo what anyone in the modern western world of Earth would consider "radical religious therapy" to make them into perfect jihadis? I'm sorry, warriors for justice (by any other name). The Sith use their emotions to affect others and I am finding it harder and harder to believe that is a bad thing. If GL truly wanted everyone to believe the world is in balance so long as there is no dark side then he should have attempted to come up with a plausible explanation in the films. If there is no dark there can be no light. If there are no Sith the Jedi are tyrants. I will never give in to the tyranny of the Jedi Order just because so many weak fools tell me they are the way the truth and the light. Sometimes we make our own way. Suffer, those who stand before us, at least we gave you a choice.

 

I don't think you understand, Star Wars isn't real life.

 

In their universe, their religion is truth, whereas in our world, forcing it on people is cause for debate and is wrong because nothing is fact.

 

In the Star Wars universe the force actually is a known thing to most people in the galaxy and most people know what the Jedi believe is true,. When a parent is told his son can one day be a Jedi and have a great life with power, they say "Okay!".

 

In the Star Wars universe, there is balance when everything is peaceful and the light side dominates, when there is Sith in the equation the balance falls off because the Sith, despite all their philosophies and thoughts, are inherently evil and corrupted from the core.

 

It's not like in real life where different religions clash, its literally good versus evil.

[Valsdad]

When the jedi talk about bringing balance to the force I laugh. Because they clearly misunderstand what balance means. They say bring balance to the force by destroying the dark side of the force. But they don't realize that destroying the dark side of the force would bring imbalance not balance. Because balance means there is evil and good. If the dark side was destroyed there would only be good. so the jedi's quest would actually bring alot of imbalance to the force instead, good thing they never totally succeeded.

 

Has anyone else noticed this.

 

"A prophecy that misread could have been" - Yoda

 

I always felt that Anakin was the chosen one and did bring balance to the force by purging the overly idealistic Jedi mindset and by eliminating Sidious (who, in no way, represented the true ideals of The Sith Order). If you play the light side Sith Warrior; you'll see how your character is disgusted by the path his/her order has taken and you'll start doing things the way they should be.

 

The Sith Order isn't inherently evil, but its usage of passionate emotions as fuel almost always leads to evil actions. If you read about Jacen Solo's fall; you'll learn about the meanings of being a true Sith.

[smartalectwo]

It's hard to think of George Lucas as an idiot for his views on the Force and imbalance, as he's essentially espousing Buddhism with a side order of Zoroastrianism.

[WindChill]

When the jedi talk about bringing balance to the force I laugh. Because they clearly misunderstand what balance means. They say bring balance to the force by destroying the dark side of the force. But they don't realize that destroying the dark side of the force would bring imbalance not balance. Because balance means there is evil and good. If the dark side was destroyed there would only be good. so the jedi's quest would actually bring alot of imbalance to the force instead, good thing they never totally succeeded.

 

Has anyone else noticed this.

 

Lucas stated that to achieve balance the force needed to revert back to its natural state. He goes on to say that this state is actually pure lightside and that the darkside is a corruption and infestation that should not exist at all, if I understood correctly the darkside stems off from users who use their negative emotions and corruption to stain it and make it become "dark". Most people dont have the ability to do this so a regular person or even a regular force user is fine with using the force to cause harm so in the end it all works out, the problem comes from a mass of people or a very POWERFUL person fully using his dark and corrupting emotions to use the force i.e a powerful Sith Lord such as Sidious or a very LARGE group such as the Sith Empire.

 

So to achieve balance said person or groups needed to be removed to bring the force back to its natural and balanced state...the lightside.

[PeepsMcJuggs]

"A prophecy that misread could have been" - Yoda

 

I always felt that Anakin was the chosen one and did bring balance to the force by purging the overly idealistic Jedi mindset and by eliminating Sidious (who, in no way, represented the true ideals of The Sith Order). If you play the light side Sith Warrior; you'll see how your character is disgusted by the path his/her order has taken and you'll start doing things the way they should be.

 

It used to be pretty much confirmed that The Force wasn't comparable to Yin-Yang: that the Dark Side was a corruption of The Force, not an aspect of it, and elimination of the Dark Side brought balance. Then The Clone Wars had to go and eff things up by having that Son/Daughter crap.

 

The Sith Order isn't inherently evil, but its usage of passionate emotions as fuel almost always leads to evil actions. If you read about Jacen Solo's fall; you'll learn about the meanings of being a true Sith.

 

You mean the Jacen Solo that killed an underling out of anger, and bashed a woman's skull in just to get information? The Sith Order is inherently evil because, as per canon, every member of the Sith Order has without fail become evil. It doesn't matter if they can argue that their philosophy is about freedom, because in practice, it's about power and control. Power corrupts: absolute power makes you a murderous a-hole.

[Avenox]

I believe there is already a topic on this...but here goes.

 

The Force exists, in its natural state, as the light side. The dark side is a corruption and a corruption of any sort is not natural. Therefore using the dark side of the force is throwing the force off-balance. Lucas himself has stated that balance in the force means purely light side.

 

Corruption is the most natural thing in the universe.

 

In the end there will be nothingness and no light will left to shine.

 

 

I see through the lies of the Jedi council.

[Rhyltran]

It used to be pretty much confirmed that The Force wasn't comparable to Yin-Yang: that the Dark Side was a corruption of The Force, not an aspect of it, and elimination of the Dark Side brought balance. Then The Clone Wars had to go and eff things up by having that Son/Daughter crap.

 

 

 

You mean the Jacen Solo that killed an underling out of anger, and bashed a woman's skull in just to get information? The Sith Order is inherently evil because, as per canon, every member of the Sith Order has without fail become evil. It doesn't matter if they can argue that their philosophy is about freedom, because in practice, it's about power and control. Power corrupts: absolute power makes you a murderous a-hole.

 

Not quite. Niarcromon corrected me on this. Lucas doesn't state that the Dark Side shouldn't exist or is a corruption of the force. That's something Professor Walsh started on these forums as a rumor. He claimed it came from Bill Moyer's interview with Lucas. After watching this interview I can honestly say nothing of the sort is ever stated. The actual quote is this..

 

"The first film starts with the last age of the Republic, which is it's getting tired, it's old, it's getting corrupt.

There's the rise of the Sith, who are becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this we have Anakin Skywalker, a young boy who is destined to be a significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and to the Republic...

Then in the second film we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sort of the beginning of the end of the Republic. And it's Anakin Skywalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he has to cope with.

And then we will get to the 3rd film where he is seduced to the dark side..

Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

 

It seems it's the Sith that unbalance the force. Rather than the existence of the Dark Side.

[PeepsMcJuggs]

Not quite. Niarcromon corrected me on this. Lucas doesn't state that the Dark Side shouldn't exist or is a corruption of the force. That's something Professor Walsh started on these forums as a rumor. He claimed it came from Bill Moyer's interview with Lucas. After watching this interview I can honestly say nothing of the sort is ever stated. The actual quote is this..

 

"The first film starts with the last age of the Republic, which is it's getting tired, it's old, it's getting corrupt.

There's the rise of the Sith, who are becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this we have Anakin Skywalker, a young boy who is destined to be a significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and to the Republic...

Then in the second film we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sort of the beginning of the end of the Republic. And it's Anakin Skywalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he has to cope with.

And then we will get to the 3rd film where he is seduced to the dark side..

Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

 

It seems it's the Sith that unbalance the force. Rather than the existence of the Dark Side.

 

That's just semantics, though. The point is that balance is brought by removing those elements that use The Dark Side, not killing the Jedi so there's an equal number of positive and negative Force users.

 

But then came The Clone Wars.

Edited February 3, 2012 by PeepsMcJuggs

[Pirate_Ron]

In all the arguments about this I've never seen anyone talk about how the Force is simply Nature.

 

Bringing balance to the force is restoring the force to it's natural state, not being manipulated by people. The Jedi tenets are to use the force when necessary and to not abuse it, but it still happens all the time. The Sith tenets are to abuse the crap out of the force to bring themselves move power, which is just more blatant disruption of the force. So both Jedi and Sith are guilty of imbalancing the force by using it. By using force healing a jedi is taking life force from somewhere else. Billions of microbial life most likely die so a force user can get rid of a hangnail.

 

Balance was almost brought to the force due to the death of just about all trained force users, allowing nature to start taking it's course again.

[Yfelsung]

How Lucas envisioned "balance": No Sith, only Jedi.

 

How the EU, Bioware and many fans envision "balance": The Dark Side is just a different way of looking at things.

 

Lucas created a world with story book morality.

 

It has since been expanded into much more interesting and realistically relativistic morality.

[RycheMykola]

When the jedi talk about bringing balance to the force I laugh. Because they clearly misunderstand what balance means. They say bring balance to the force by destroying the dark side of the force. But they don't realize that destroying the dark side of the force would bring imbalance not balance. Because balance means there is evil and good. If the dark side was destroyed there would only be good. so the jedi's quest would actually bring alot of imbalance to the force instead, good thing they never totally succeeded.

 

Has anyone else noticed this.

Anakin did bring balance to the force. They killed all the Jedi so that only Obi wan and Yoda were left.

 

2 Jedi = 2 Sith

 

Balance!

[PeepsMcJuggs]

How Lucas envisioned "balance": No Sith, only Jedi.

 

How the EU, Bioware and many fans envision "balance": The Dark Side is just a different way of looking at things.

 

Lucas created a world with story book morality.

 

It has since been expanded into much more interesting and realistically relativistic morality.

 

I'd argue that it's the "interesting" part that's relativistic. I for one have gotten bored out of my skull with all the EU novels that do nothing but talk about the metaphysical morality of Force use.

[Rhyltran]

That's just semantics, though. The point is that balance is brought by removing those elements that use The Dark Side, not killing the Jedi so there's an equal number of positive and negative Force users.

 

But then came The Clone Wars.

 

Sith aren't the only Dark Side users and the Dark Side exists without the Sith. The Sith seek to make the galaxy dark and remove the Light Side entirely. Not just the destruction of the Jedi. The Jedi seek to serve the force as a whole and don't try to remove the dark aspects of it. Other Dark Side religions do their own thing while worshiping the dark side without trying to spread it across the galaxy.

 

The Jedi, as stated, may follow the force in it's entirely but they only use the light. If it's the force "will" for them to not get involved even if people will die. They'll abide by the "Will of the force." The Jedi accept hate, sadness, death, and other negative concepts exist but they also accept the positive. The Jedi do not seek to alter the natural order of things. Yoda straight up tells if it's the will of the force for his mother to die. He shouldn't prevent it. He should accept it. Do not mourn for her. Cherish the memories he has and be happy that she's able to become one with the force in which there is no more suffering or sadness.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Rhyltran

[Yfelsung]

I'd argue that it's the "interesting" part that's relativistic. I for one have gotten bored out of my skull with all the EU novels that do nothing but talk about the metaphysical morality of Force use.

 

I enjoy morality plays and stories that talk about the nature of morality.

 

I find the entire subject matter to be interesting because people are so divided on it.

 

There are some people who believe in absolute good and evil, true objective morality and the idea of a world without that morality terrifies them.

 

I find that type of person to be interesting, especially in a story where that type of person slowly awakens to the reality of the "greyness" of the universe.

 

It's like the 2 rare occasions in my life that I've seen a believer turn into a non-believer. Seeing the actual light go on in their eyes.

 

It's magical experiencing someone's entire world view fall over like a row of dominoes, hence I love when Jedi go Dark Side.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Yfelsung

[PeepsMcJuggs]

Sith aren't the only Dark Side users and the Dark Side exists without the Sith. The Sith seek to make the galaxy dark and remove the Light Side entirely. Not just the destruction of the Jedi. The Jedi seek to serve the force as a whole and don't try to remove the dark aspects of it. Other Dark Side religions do their own thing while worshiping the dark side without trying to spread it across the galaxy.

 

You're talking EU though, whereas I'm referring to the G-Canon perspective. Prior to The Clone Wars, which just effed everything up, Lucas had never made mention of anyone besides the Sith using the Dark Side. And nowhere in G-Canon was the "Light Side" even mentioned: that was a convention started by roleplaying games to delineate the factions on paper.

 

And since when do the Jedi not try to remove the dark aspects of the Force?

[Rhyltran]

You're talking EU though, whereas I'm referring to the G-Canon perspective. Prior to The Clone Wars, which just effed everything up, Lucas had never made mention of anyone besides the Sith using the Dark Side. And nowhere in G-Canon was the "Light Side" even mentioned: that was a convention started by roleplaying games to delineate the factions on paper.

 

And since when do the Jedi not try to remove the dark aspects of the Force?

 

Since when do they do? All I recall is them trying to remove the Sith who's soul goal is to thrust the galaxy into darkness. I also disagree. The Nightsisters were introduced in the clone wars series. They were an EU concept and they study the dark side. So yes Dark Side religions exist in the clone wars series other than the Sith.

[Kelfred]

If I recall correctly, there was a concept that light aide and dark side force users lived alongside one another at one point, until the dark side users attempted to take over, resulting in a war. This led to the defeat and flight of the dark side users, who then became the Sith and the lifelong enemies of the jedi. Theres more to it than that, but I dont see any need to delve into the intricacies.

 

Maybe its just semantics, but the implication is that the Sith unbalance the force, not necessarily the dark side.

 

Its the users of the force that bring unbalance in how they use the force, not the force itself. A point which has already been made, in that there is no dark side, there is only the light side and the corruption of the light side by the users.

[PeepsMcJuggs]

Since when do they do? All I recall is them trying to remove the Sith who's soul goal is to thrust the galaxy into darkness. I also disagree. The Nightsisters were introduced in the clone wars series. They were an EU concept and they study the dark side. So yes Dark Side religions exist in the clone wars series other than the Sith.

 

That's actually the point I made earlier. Before The Clone Wars, it was all cut and dry. Lucas' comments made it pretty clear how things were supposed to work at the G-Canon level. Then The Clone Wars went and effed everything up by making EU garbage mainstream.

[Rhyltran]

That's actually the point I made earlier. Before The Clone Wars, it was all cut and dry. Lucas' comments made it pretty clear how things were supposed to work at the G-Canon level. Then The Clone Wars went and effed everything up by making EU garbage mainstream.

 

Regardless of your feelings on it. It's Canon that the Sith aren't the only dark side religion. There is a Light and a Dark Side. They are balanced. The Sith upset the balance. Not the dark side. Also one could argue even when it was only the original there was a Light Side. Nowhere did Lucas ever state the dark side is a cancer but that there is a separate side and it's dark. One can logically assume then that the other side would be "Light."

 

You say the clone wars "messed it all up."

 

I say the clone wars era expanded on it.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Rhyltran

[WickedDjinn]

This really isn't worth arguing over.

 

Lucas very plainly stated exact what balance to the force means.

 

The reason for any confusion is because his idea of balance doesn't square with what most consider balance.

 

Personally I think Lucas idea of balance is painfully simplistic and I don't like it in the least... But it's his world and it is what it is. The light side is balance and the natural state of the force.

[Rhyltran]

This really isn't worth arguing over.

 

Lucas very plainly stated exact what balance to the force means.

 

The reason for any confusion is because his idea of balance doesn't square with what most consider balance.

 

Personally I think Lucas idea of balance is painfully simplistic and I don't like it in the least... But it's his world and it is what it is. The light side is balance and the natural state of the force.

 

Again, incorrect. His only statement regarding balance is.. The Sith unbalance the force and they are evil. That's all there is to it. No Sith = Balance. He has never stated the light side is the natural aspect of the force and the dark side is bad. Never has this been stated. In fact even the clone wars cartoon debunks this. The Father keeps his two "Children." in check. It's not that simplistic. The Jedi aren't too biased. The Jedi are not the same as the Sith "but Light."

 

The Jedi do not aim to make the entire galaxy light. They don't try to force this. The Sith STRIVE to destroy the Light side and to smother the galaxy in darkness. This is why they unbalance the force. The Jedi do not aim for the destruction of the dark side. They don't strive to remove the dark aspects of the force. They don't enforce their views on others.

[Valsdad]

You're talking EU though, whereas I'm referring to the G-Canon perspective. Prior to The Clone Wars, which just effed everything up, Lucas had never made mention of anyone besides the Sith using the Dark Side. And nowhere in G-Canon was the "Light Side" even mentioned: that was a convention started by roleplaying games to delineate the factions on paper.

 

And since when do the Jedi not try to remove the dark aspects of the Force?

 

I personally disagree with throwing out the EU when referencing lore. I mean the sole reason we are on this forum and discussing this is because of the EU. It seems kind of silly to discount it.