Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Cranberries]

Is it only that one ability, that one specific combination of abilities? Or does it affect other abilities as well?

 

If it's specific it could very well be a bug...in one of those abilities specifically, and not a delay issue in general.

 

Effects anything with a cast > instant, or cast > channel, or channel > instant.

 

Play a Merc BH, it's one of the biggest problems with DPSing atm. You don't have a smooth, fluid rotation because you're constantly hindered by ability delay.

[Xcore]

I am asking for specific evidence of a non-cosmetic, MECHANICAL delay effect that is causing abilities to actually fail to go off at all, not just "appear" to go off later than you think they should.

 

The former is a game-breaking problem. The latter is a problem if it personally bothers you for aesthetic reasons, but is not 'game breaking'.

 

You're intellectually offensive if you have not seen mechanical evidenced that is all over the OP videos as well as threadline.

 

You have absolutely NO credibility due to the above quoted statement.

 

 

To creationists like you I can only say: There is no "missing link", you're not understanding the principle.

[Chaosmagistrate]

Yea and that "network lag" didnt exist in WoW or Warhammer so tada it must be Swotor

 

In WoW or Warhammer, the moves fired before the animation. I played a warrior through most of Vanilla, a mage for 4 years, and a DK/rogue for 2 years. I played a bright wizard and a swordmaster for like 6 months.

 

The "Network Lag" exists in all three games I had quoted, but the moves fire faster in WoW and Warhammer.

 

For example, if you cast Charge, the target is immediately stunned in place, and then the animation of running really fast is produced. If you Blink as a mage, you are already teleported to your location, but the animation fires late. This allows mages to jump from ridiculously high places and teleport to the ground before taking fatal fall damage. See the previous posts about mounting.

 

In TOR however, the animation fires first and the move fires when the animation finishes. That's why if you Force Leap someone changing elevations, you almost always land where they "were" standing rather than where they "are" standing. They're still immobilized, but they're nowhere near you. Which also lends credence to explain the Force Leap - Force Speed distance gap.

 

Obviously it isn't cut and dry like that, and there are various nuances involved including my hardware, my network connection, Bioware's "stuff", but I know for certain, it cannot all be on my side that is causing the issues. I play with RL friends who also have similar issues with healing people.

 

Even if we are not the majority of people, there obviously is some portion of people who feel that the combat system could use some improvement.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Chaosmagistrate

[Scaire]

Is it only that one ability, that one specific combination of abilities? Or does it affect other abilities as well?

 

If it's specific it could very well be a bug...in one of those abilities specifically, and not a delay issue in general.

 

Sorry for any typos im on my phone at work. It occurs with all instant casts after using recklessness but is most apparent with shock. I can duplicate the problem at will. I do not have a way to traps or I would. Im sure one or the posts in the op has this shown (although maybe not assassin abilities)

[DigitalDreamz]

If anyone is healing you'll notice this delay in registration.

 

Healing I'll start the activation time on my heal. It's 2.5 seconds. When the 2.5 seconds are up there is a few tenths of a second pause THEN it finally registers Health to my character. This cannot be intended. I am a huge fan of this game but this happening quite often needs to be fixed immediately.

[Khoranth]

It is pretty much impossible Bioware did this intentionally i cant really wrap my head around how you guys could think it was intentional.

 

because bioware said it was.

[Beliad]

There is most definitely a mechanical delay between cast, animation and resolution for damage.

 

The game feels like AoC in this regard where the damage and ability use was tied to character animation (if you believe this to be false, please review the issue regarding female characters swinging too slowly resulting in a verified, and eventually resolved, dps loss)

 

I know, that when I cast snipe, I watch the cast bar then I get around half a second of my character raising the rifle and then firing, SCT appearing only then above the mobs head. What makes this more jarring is that the character actually dips from the cast animation for a brief fraction of a second before making the firing animation again, it is not a smooth transition.

 

This is most definitely not a network issue, though lag will obviously exaggerate the problem quite severely sometimes resulting in multiple animations and sometimes the cancelling of skills, a separate issue but still worth investigating.

 

Actions are most definitely not immediate, even when considered instant, most apparent with interupts which can result in faster casts being near impossible to interupt.

[Zeetofox]

because bioware said it was.

 

like i said post a SS of the GM saying it is intentional

[Ahlin]

I glanced at it but didn't watch it closely enough to do a detailed analysis of it, which is what I'm going to do later.

 

And I AM on the opposite side. From the standpoint of someone who knows how the systems and the networks work, I am telling you flat out that the animations are appearance only and have no effect on and are only a limited representation of the true game state as held by the server, and that only the game state as held by the server matters as far as what actually happens.

 

In fact, the GCD and cooldowns are the *most accurate* representation of what actually happens that we currently have, because they are designed first and foremost to be functional, and to 'look good' second: the animations HAVE no function, ALL they do is 'look good'.

 

And yes, with a Combat log it would be really easy to see that there's not a mechanical problem, as it stands it takes a lot closer watching of what's going on to see it.

 

The trick is, as I said, to chain off abilities based on the GCD and cooldowns only, and see if all the abilities are used successfully and do damage. I have yet to see a case where an ability failed to fire because of an animation issue, in personal play or in a video.

 

The animation being delayed isn't itself a problem: it's only a problem if it effects the mechanics, the state of the game on the server. All we've got to go on are our client's representations of what the server says that state is, some of which are deliberately modified, even on world of warcraft, in order to look better.

 

Look past the cosmetic and see the mechanics.

 

To me this post seems the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going la la la.

 

You're disregarding hard evidence in favor of enforcing a belief that is clearly mistaken.

[Tiron_Raptor]

Yes the gcd should be the best representative of the combat but what I and many people on this forums is experienceing is almost the implementation of a false gcd merely for visual aspects. Look closer at the videos.

 

The combat obeying the animations over the gcd. I believe bw knew what they were doing. They were trying to make a more "epic" combat feel and looks like their plan back fired.

 

Alright, I've analyzed that video. (

) Here's what I see:

 

He uses charged blast on the first target, the GCD fires before he's released the button, then switches targets and starts spam-clicking that grenade-thing a tiny, miniscule fraction of a second before the GCD finishes. There is a slight delay after the GCD finishes before the next GCD fires. When it goes, it is just AFTER what appears to be his second keypress(can't be sure without frame-by-frame), in stark contrast to his first ability use, where it was blatantly simultaneous. The animations play normally, if late, and both abilities are used successfully.

 

That slight delay after the GCD *IS* significant: it appears to be EXACTLY the ability action queue problem I described. He definitely hits the button for the first time just fractionally BEFORE the GCD finishes. If the GCD went off simultaneous with the second keypress I'd assume that he had his queue set to 0.0 and it activated on the second, as it is it looks like he had his queue active and the proximity of the second keypress to the activation is likely just a coincidence.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Tiron_Raptor

[AlexRose]

I could tell you that I have an IQ of 131 and am a trained and experienced computer tech, and you've got no way of verifying that or any reason to believe me.

 

This we can very well verify if you want but I am afraid we would go a little offtopic. I am sure that a lot of people here have their own idea of your "expertise" in the field.

[Khoranth]

like i said post a SS of the GM saying it is intentional

 

Someone already did inside of this very thread. Is there some reason you think I am your slave and i take commands from you? Go find it yourself.

[Khoranth]

Alright, I've analyzed that video. (

) Here's what I see:

 

He uses charged blast on the first target, the GCD fires before he's released the button, then switches targets and starts spam-clicking that grenade-thing a tiny, miniscule fraction of a second before the GCD finishes. There is a slight delay after the GCD finishes before the next GCD fires. When it goes, it is just AFTER what appears to be his second keypress(can't be sure without frame-by-frame), in stark contrast to his first ability use, where it was blatantly simultaneous. The animations play normally, if late, and both abilities are used successfully.

 

That slight delay after the GCD *IS* significant: it appears to be EXACTLY the ability action queue problem I described. He definitely hits the button for the first time just fractionally BEFORE the GCD finishes. If the GCD went off simultaneous with the second keypress I'd assume that he had his queue set to 0.0 and it activated on the second, as it is it looks like he had his queue active and the proximity of the second keypress to the activation is likely just a coincidence.

 

Seriously? THis thread is already beyond determining whether or not the ability delay exists, the debate now is whether or not bioware intended for it to exist.

 

The argument your having ended in the first post

[Cranberries]

Alright, I've analyzed that video. (

) Here's what I see:

 

He uses charged blast on the first target, the GCD fires before he's released the button, then switches targets and starts spam-clicking that grenade-thing a tiny, miniscule fraction of a second before the GCD finishes. There is a slight delay after the GCD finishes before the next GCD fires. When it goes, it is just AFTER what appears to be his second keypress(can't be sure without frame-by-frame), in stark contrast to his first ability use, where it was blatantly simultaneous. The animations play normally, if late, and both abilities are used successfully.

 

That slight delay after the GCD *IS* significant: it appears to be EXACTLY the ability action queue problem I described. He definitely hits the button for the first time just fractionally BEFORE the GCD finishes. If the GCD went off simultaneous with the second keypress I'd assume that he had his queue set to 0.0 and it activated on the second, as it is it looks like he had his queue active and the proximity of the second keypress to the activation is likely just a coincidence.

 

The combat isn't fluid. Just stop defending something you have no knowledge about. Sure, this doesn't effect you "as much" if you're a slow, terrible player - for those of us who are able to press more than 10 keys a minute, however, this is a huge, damaging, hideous issue that needs to be fixed as soona s possible.

[Zeetofox]

Someone already did inside of this very thread. Is there some reason you think I am your slave and i take commands from you? Go find it yourself.

 

 

Find it for me, slave.

[Xcore]

Alright, I've analyzed that video. (

) Here's what I see:

 

He uses charged blast on the first target, the GCD fires before he's released the button, then switches targets and starts spam-clicking that grenade-thing a tiny, miniscule fraction of a second before the GCD finishes. There is a slight delay after the GCD finishes before the next GCD fires. When it goes, it is just AFTER what appears to be his second keypress(can't be sure without frame-by-frame), in stark contrast to his first ability use, where it was blatantly simultaneous. The animations play normally, if late, and both abilities are used successfully.

 

That slight delay after the GCD *IS* significant: it appears to be EXACTLY the ability action queue problem I described. He definitely hits the button for the first time just fractionally BEFORE the GCD finishes. If the GCD went off simultaneous with the second keypress I'd assume that he had his queue set to 0.0 and it activated on the second, as it is it looks like he had his queue active and the proximity of the second keypress to the activation is likely just a coincidence.

 

No, stop glorifying yourself, your entire analysis is false... it has nothing to do with his keypress but the fact that the first animation had to finish before the next ability could be used...

 

How on earth can you be so dense and fervently defensive, attempting yourself to be a hero of revelation. You haven't even taken the issue seriously enough to read through the evidence or watch the videos listed in the OP you're responding to...

 

 

I am done with you... this is ridiculous,

[Chaosmagistrate]

Or someone between you and SWTOR, or you're playing on a server that's far away from your real-world location, which world of warcraft wouldn't allow you to do because they didn't let you pick which regions servers you got to play on..

 

I live in Alberta, Canada, and in one of the Southern cities, with a population greater than 500k. So I do not live on a farm of three people with cattle, 60 miles to the closest town. I live in a suburb with modern appliances.

 

I played WoW first on a PvE server US East for 5 months as a warrior, then rerolled on Dragonblight USWest, and then Mal'Ganis, which I believe is USEast.

 

Rarely had issues with Blink, Intercept, Charge, Death Grip. Except when you blink through elevation changes. Don't ge tme wrong, they failed here and there, but not to the spectacular number of times in TOR.

 

In Warhammer Online, I started out on a East Server Black Oak or something, then got merged to Praag which was a East server, and then that was merged to a West server.

 

I currently play on a USEast server in TOR. I am fairly certain, Miami would arguably be one of the farthest locations from where I live, and I doubt the "network lag" is really that detrimental. We aren't backwater hicks where I live. We have fibre lines. We have running water. Our houses are not made of straw.

 

I apologize in advance if I sound flippant. But no, it is not exclusively a I am West, the East is mega-lag issue. I have no problems force leaping mobs. And even with "network lag". If I walk behind a MOB, and stand directly behind it in stealth, and attempt to back blast it, and it won't work, lag cannot be the sole culprit here, because, I instead sucker punch the MOB, and lo and behold it works. I have very limited IT knowledge, because I skipped that area for my degree, and I also hate programming in general, but please refrain from insulting my intelligence, as if I can sucker punch the mob, I am obviously close enough to back blast the mob. And to put things in proper context, the mob is a droid, standing still in a corner 4 feet away from the wall, so unless my lag is so severe that the droid is spinning around in circles, or facing a wall for no reason, I'm fairly certain that it's not all on my end.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Chaosmagistrate

[Vorlia]

The animations are cosmetic, just to look pretty. They don't effect mechanics OR gameplay, and what people are complaining about is a MECHANICAL ability delay. What I've seen in here so far wouldn't cause you to have any problems using abilities or reduce your effectiveness in any way.

 

If this were true, then the whole mount-issue wouldn't exist, right? If you can mount (which is just like "casting" an ability) and the animation portion was just cosmetic, then you'd be able to start moving as soon as the cast was completed and not need to wait for the animation to finish. No?

 

The same thing is happening in combat when animations and other movement or abilities collide. Animations may be cosmetic in specific instances, but there are clear examples of where they are part of the problem.

[AlexRose]

Find it for me, slave.

 

I think you play too much dark side in this game. Try switching from time to time

[Owarida]

No, stop glorifying yourself, your entire analysis is false... it has nothing to do with his keypress but the fact that the first animation had to finish before the next ability could be used...

 

How on earth can you be so dense and fervently defensive, attempting yourself to be a hero of revelation. You haven't even taken the issue seriously enough to read through the evidence or watch the videos listed in the OP you're responding to...

 

 

I am done with you... this is ridiculous,

 

Dude, just ignore him.

 

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if he actually helped design and develop the game.

[Xcore]

Dude, just ignore him.

 

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if he actually helped design and develop the game.

 

I was considering that possibility, I would not at all be surprised...

[Terko_Koslah]

No, stop glorifying yourself, your entire analysis is false... it has nothing to do with his keypress but the fact that the first animation had to finish before the next ability could be used...

 

How on earth can you be so dense and fervently defensive, attempting yourself to be a hero of revelation. You haven't even taken the issue seriously enough to read through the evidence or watch the videos listed in the OP you're responding to...

 

 

I am done with you... this is ridiculous,

 

as I understand it even from this thread, this is the way the game was meant to be played cause you have the timer in the preferences, but I could be wrong...

[Schizogeist]

Can someone please quote the Droid protocol or w/e it is from bw earlier about the combat system in the game.

[BezerkerX]

I don't understand peoples viewpoint when they say 'I play this game to watch my animations, I don't care if I can't use another ability despite the actionbars telling me that my GCD has finished and I am now ready to cast another ability'

 

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever...

 

If I want to cause damage to something before it eventually kills me, I want to get my skills off as fast as possible. There is no 'this is the way I like to play'

 

This is just the way it SHOULD be played.

 

I press a button, the ability fires, GCD fires, GCD finishes, I press next skill, Skill fires instantly and interupts the animation for the old skill regardless of if it's finished.

 

Why else would I bother playing a game that is focused around combat, I might as well be playing Hello Kitty.

[Unruhe]

Just stumbled into this massive thread, wanted to add a few things that I've noticed:

 

The general "delay", for me, is mostly overcome with ability queuing. I cranked the queue up to 1 second (the most the in-game options allow) and it makes my combat much more fluid. I push a skill once, during the GCD, and after the GCD ends it fires.

 

This isn't ideal, and it isn't as "tactile" as a "PUSH BUTTON, FIRE ABILITY" setup would be, but it's functional for me. I'd like to see more general responsiveness, but I can live with what we have for the moment.

 

However, there are two big exceptions that really ruin my enjoyment of the game

 

Exception 1:

 

"Off GCD" abilities suck. I mean they really, unequivocally, suck. There are a small handful of abilities that are supposed to work at any time, even if you are in a GCD or if another ability is firing. I primarily play tanks, and most survival cooldowns fall under this banner. From my frequent-use ones such as Kinetic Shield and my emergency-oriented, long downtime panic buttons, all of these are supposed to function when I press them, no matter when I press them.

 

I have to mash the hotkeys for these abilities to get them to work. It seems like anything that is "Off GCD" still sometimes has to wait for a GCD, or for a previous animation to complete, and sometimes it doesn't have to wait. When I'm standing in what is soon to be an enemy AOE field, I simply cannot tolerate having my Force/Tech resist ability fail to fire for up to (or over) a full second while I hopeless mash the key trying to trigger it.

 

Weaving Kinetic Shield into my rotation is cumbersome and just plain not fun when I have to press it between 1 and 5 times during GCDs because there's never a guarantee that pressing the button will trigger the skill.

 

Exception 2:

 

Character handling, even out of combat, is garbage. This would be tolerable in most MMOs where precise movement is scarcely necessary, but this game tries to harbor exploration more than most MMOs with the collectible datacrons, that give permanent upgrades to your character. Often, these items require platforming with little room for error. Problem is, I never know where my character is going to go or what he's going to do when I press a direction and jump.

 

I average between 30 and 50 ms to my server according to the in-game display, and I have come to accept that I skip every datacron because I want to spare myself the frustration. Here are some examples of what has happened to me and why I've given up on the "platforming" sections in this game:

 

Run full speed toward a ledge, press jump. Character's arms/shoulders 'twitch' like the jump animation starts. Character doesn't jump, falls off the ledge.

 

Stand at a ledge, press forward then immediately after, press jump. Character's arms/shoulders 'twitch' like the jump animation starts. Character doesn't jump, falls off ledge.

 

Stand at a ledge, press jump then forward immediately after. Character's arms/shoulders 'twitch' like the jump animation starts. Character doesn't jump, falls off ledge.

 

Stand at a ledge, press jump then forward immediately after. Character catapults forward, usually overshooting the narrow space I have to land on.

 

These things don't happen 100% of the time, sometimes the game 'works' and reads the inputs in a way that makes sense, but more often than not I just waste my time clambering up something to inevitably and impotently fall off of a superstructure at some point because the game just decides that my jump wasn't important enough to register.