This Is How Competition Works

[Myrmedus]

Comparing TOR at release to WoW at release is a far better comparison than comparing TOR at release to WoW after 6 years of refinement.

 

Yes, WoW came out in 2004, TOR came out in 2011, but that will not actually spark much of a change in the state of an MMO upon release except things that have improved over that time such as graphics. It is also expected that TOR will have learnt some things from WoW's evolution, but "evolution" is the key word here: every MMO evolves and what it starts at is a mere husk of what it becomes. Just because we're 7 years later doesn't mean the entire developmental process of MMOs has completely changed because it simply has not, and it has not because it's based upon the human nature of its development team not technical advancements.

 

The main issue is actually people comparing the two at all when this game has only been out for 2 weeks - THAT is puerile. With any MMO you have to let it settle for at least 1-2 months, let the patches flow in and let the refinements come, before you even consider comparison.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Myrmedus

[Merrinset]

Well said OP, but mindless Fanboys (see above) are already on their way to shout you down.

 

Mindless fanboy who doesn't know what fanboy means, also incoming.

 

Just for future reference the dictionaries do not say :

 

fan-boi : someone who disagrees with you.

 

It is more along the lines of -

 

Fanboy ;(fan-boi) a person with an enthusiasm for something.

 

in extreme cases it has been defined as "someone who is so enthusiastic about a topic they will defend their views to the exclusion of all others" which, quite frankly, is a perfect description for virtually every person that posts "fanboy" as some kind of internet insult, and I will keep pointing out that you, and others like you, have absolutely no idea what they are talking about because they cannot even use a word in it's proper context. Maybe if you could quit being so self-righteous you'd find out that the world doesn't revolve around you after all.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Merrinset

[Errathe]

WOW the Hero engine!!!

 

The one crappy platform they could have got, they went with!

 

You do know the Hero engine was created in early 2000 right??? Simutronic had it when they showcased their never released MMO, Hero's Journey.

 

We're talking about an engine that has only 2 games released under it's belt so far. Swtor and some other small MMO.

 

Not sure if i understand you well, but if you think it's a selling point, think again!

 

Hero engine=old, unproven and cheap.

 

You misunderstood my post. My mention of the Hero engine was in no way related to the quality of the Hero engine.

[Master-Nala]

Let me help:

 

If WOW is more your speed.

 

Take care.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Master-Nala

[Yfelsung]

The game aside, I reject two philosophies that seem to pervade your post.

 

1. I know what competition is, but I don't think it is the sole measure of success or worth in the universe.

 

2. I don't think that appealing to as many people as possible is a measure of success or worth.

 

I expand on your rejection:

 

The man, or MMO, with the most money is not the best man, or MMO, nor the most successful.

 

Example:

 

CoH is a better RTS than Starcraft 2. It has better graphics, a higher skill ceiling, more interesting and varied strategies, an original take on the RTS formula.

 

BUT

 

SC2 outsold CoH by 10 times or more.

 

Why? SC2 has better brand recognition and has nostalgia working for it.

 

Blizzard could poop in a box and outsell many companies, not because blizzard's box poop is better, but because it has a blizzard logo on the poop.

[Jalden]

I'm being asked to pay for a product now that is inferior in most ways to other products already on the market on the premise it will be improved in the future.

 

Weird. I'm being asked to pay for a product that is superior now.

 

If you do not like it, don't pay.

[archifikoss]

Comparing TOR at release to WoW at release is a far better comparison than comparing TOR at release to WoW after 6 years of refinement.

 

Yes, WoW came out in 2004, TOR came out in 2011, but that will not actually spark much of a change in the state of an MMO upon release except things that have improved over that time such as graphics. It is also expected that TOR will have learnt some things from WoW's evolution, but "evolution" is the key word here: every MMO evolves and what it starts at is a mere husk of what it becomes. Just because we're 7 years later doesn't mean the entire developmental process of MMOs has completely changed because it simply has not.

 

The main issue is actually people comparing the two at all when this game has only been out for 2 weeks - THAT is puerile. With any MMO you have to let it settle for at least 1-2 months, let the patches flow in and let the refinements come, before you even consider comparison.

 

Actually... I believe that neither one is. On one hand, WoW at release was years ago - and theoretically games and the MMO genre have evolved since then, meaning that your new game should be up to date with the industry standards. On the other hand, WoW does have many years of constant polishing and improvement - whereas TOR has a mere 2 weeks.

 

IMO:

 

Compare TOR with WoW release when it comes to the amount and variety of content.

 

Compare TOR with WOW in its current iteration when it comes to more technical issues, as well as gameplay, functionality and "quality of life".

[ArmchairMagpie]

You also don't fix problems by constantly crying and gnawing at there feet saying "Your game is absolute ****! Rift is better! Your games gonna fail!" hopping that this will somehow "motivate" them. Sorry to tell you but the world doesn't work like that. I have no idea WHY you think the world works like that.

 

I think you must have missed this line:

"The most loyal fans are those who constructively criticize the most."

 

You see. Your patronizing was completely useless because I already narrowed down the group of people included and it goes without saying that everything else is excluded.

Edited January 2, 2012 by ArmchairMagpie

[RayBanJockey]

Comparing TOR with WOW is like comparing apples and oranges. They are both fruit, but that's about where the similarities stop. If you haven't noticed it yet, TOR isn't an MMO no matter how much you'd like it to be. It's a single player game with multiplayer strapped on, sort of like they did with GTA 3 ages ago. The only reason people seem to be missing this fact is I guess because you (and me tbh) Star Wars fans SO BADLY want this game to be more than it is, to be something you wanted it to be, because you live Star Wars and you love MMO's. We also (SO BADLY) wanted something to replace WOW. But sadly, it'll never be all that. It's like buying a red car and then complaining that it's not blue, TOR is just not an MMO in the sense you'd like it to be.

[Mamono]

Comparing TOR at release to WoW at release is a far better comparison than comparing TOR at release to WoW after 6 years of refinement.

 

Yes, WoW came out in 2004, TOR came out in 2011, but that will not actually spark much of a change in the state of an MMO upon release except things that have improved over that time such as graphics. It is also expected that TOR will have learnt some things from WoW's evolution, but "evolution" is the key word here: every MMO evolves and what it starts at is a mere husk of what it becomes. Just because we're 7 years later doesn't mean the entire developmental process of MMOs has completely changed because it simply has not, and it has not because it's based upon the human nature of its development team not technical advancements.

 

The main issue is actually people comparing the two at all when this game has only been out for 2 weeks - THAT is puerile. With any MMO you have to let it settle for at least 1-2 months, let the patches flow in and let the refinements come, before you even consider comparison.

 

What about comperin ToR release with Rift release? It is even better then WoW imo.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Mamono

[FellintoOblivion]

A combat log: We agree, and it's on the way.

 

Vendor Filters that Work: You'll need to explain what you mean, as the GTN filters work fine for me.

 

Smooth, Instant Reaction Combat: Could be a problem with your PC, I only have problems when I'm running bad latency. As long as my latency is sub-50, my combat is smooth and responsive.

 

Scaleable/Movable UI: On the way. Sure, sucks we don't have it out of the box, but it's confirmed on the way.

 

A Decent AH: What's wrong with the AH? A limit of 50 sales prevents the AH shenanigans that WoW suffered from. The filters work fine. I MUCH PREFER a buyout only system.

 

I actually love the GTN, I use it all the time. Unlike WoW's AH it won't cause the economy to artificially inflate.

 

Go to a vendor and try and filter the items it has for sale by "usable". Nothing happens.

 

There is a 100+ page thread on this same forum about the combat lag, it's not just me and it's not related to latency or computer specs.

 

The AH sucks. You can't search for armor by slot and you can't just type an items name into the search field without going through 2-4 sub menus first.

 

The point is, even if these things are "on the way" they should have been in the game on day 1. They are basic level things that every MMO has had for the past 7 years.

 

I'm not asking for an instant end game here. If you can create a fully voiced MMO you HAVE to be technically able to code a functioning vendor filter.

[Orvish]

The game is not different in any aspect then this is an si-fi. Nothing ells is new with this game. Voice acting? Been in games for ages. They just use it everywhere. Storry heavy lined? Not new, every MMO out there has a storry line, SWToR just lean more heavily on it.

 

Are you really that stupid, or just trolling?

 

TOR offers full voice acting, not just for quest NPCs, but for you, your companions, other players, and even random NPCs out in the world. No other game offers this. It is a truly innovative concept to offer a FULLY voiced MMO.

 

Story? Really? TOR is one of the first MMOs I've ever played that grabs you and pulls you into the story, making it feel like you're a true part of the world you're playing in. Are you a Sith Lord? All the NPCs are going to treat you as such, and when they don't the game offers you the ability to put them in their place. Are you just a Bounty Hunter? Don't expect the same measure of respect the Sith Warrior next to you is going to get. Little variations like that draw you into the story, something no other MMO does.

 

Warcraft's Lore has been shot to hell ever since they added the Draenei in Burning Crusade. It was a sloppy, last-minute job, and their story has never been expanded on. The only quests that ever made you feel you were part of the world in Warcraft have since been removed (Scepter of the Shifting Sands, The Missing Diplomat, etc). Rift tried to tell you a story, but they never really brought you into the world. I always felt seperate from everything going on, which is why I quit playing. TOR works from its established Lore base, builds on it, and so far hasn't jumped the shark on anything, and seems to remain largely in line with the greater Star Wars universe, which is a major accomplishment on its own.

 

So yes, TOR has its faults, which I freely acknowledge, but to say it hasn't lived up to being "innovative" in any way is just plain ignorance.

[LogicalPremise]

Oh, OP, expecting logic from TOR fanboys. You so funny.

 

 

That being said, it is the top dog. It is the MMO which all other MMOs must aspire to equal or beat in terms of quality. This does not mean they must be clones of it, rather that they must appeal to as many people as it does for their own reasons (or similar ones).

 

On this I disagree and strongly. There are enough people who hate WoW , especially after Cataclysm or whatever the hell they did to it, that it is *not* a targeting goal for "quality".

 

Allow me to explain. WoW has a certain feature set. A great number of people now see that feature set as "standard". Like cover systems, quick time events and dialogue trees in other games, the "mainstream" sees having these as "requirements".

 

Some people are actually turned off by these features. It is a gamble to push a model deliberately stripped of them, but that is the only thing that makes sense. Bioware is not stupid. They may have been rushed, but it would not have taken long to incoporate LFG/LFD, brackets, etc if these things were ever wanted.

 

Unfortunately, since most people are from WoW, they define "quality" as "identical in feature set to WoW and building from there as a baseline".

 

Consumer loyalty is a big part of the 21st century Western mindset. I don't blame the apologists for being brainwashed into thinking they are the white knights of a corporation and are thus tasked to defend it at every juncture.

 

This , I hope, has very little to do with loyalty. Anyone who is loyal to a corporation in the 21st century needs to go on medication. Period. There is not a single company out there who's devotion to it's customers or to quality is greater than it's devotion to it's stock price, and unless you're a shareholder , loyalty is just them making a sucker out of you.

 

Far worse than loyalty , though, is fanboyism -- the illogical and irrational support of something because it makes you feel emotionally good.

 

The problem here is that so many of you are just flat out denying that TOR is in no way in the same realm that World of WarCraft is in. What's even more pathetic is that some of you are actually trying to justify this inane reasoning by comparing TOR to Vanilla WoW and the issues it had.

 

Again -- I do not think they should be conflated. I won't play WoW. Period. Ever. Non-negotable. I know dozens of people who won't. Ever. Period. Non-negotable. It literally doesn't matter what sort of quality level it boasts, for us the "current state of WoW" puts it in realm that is not even remotely accessible or fun.

 

For those people, TOR is something that will evolve over time into something with the "quality" of WoW but without hordes of morons, a storyline butchered by incompetent writers, and endless meaningless grinding. In that light -- and in ONLY that light -- a comparison can be made in saying "WoW took X number of years to get to Y features, so TOR should take less", etc.

 

World of WarCraft came out in 2004. You are trying to compare a product from 2004 to a product from 2011. Do you understand how puerile that is? Try doing that in any other market. Hell, try doing that with any other game if you like.

 

It's done all the time. Cheap cars compete with luxury cars. Advanced technologies compete with simpler , cheaper versions. Indep and freeware games compete with polished products.

 

Is it wise? No. Are these comparisons 100% valid? Never. Are the markets comparible? Not at all. But some pithy moron will catch you out on the point, nonetheless.

 

The bottom line is not "Is TOR competing with WoW" , and everyone arguing along that bottom line is missing the point.

 

The point is this:

 

They clearly had the money and development time to match WoW. They chose to focus in a different area. They are gambling that a certain group of players will chose this OVER WoW's more polished results for the simple reason that some people cannot and will not stand playing WoW.

 

Is that a valid choice?

[EwokLuvr]

You had me until you used lack of /roll as your only example (and you were so close!)

 

Luckily, your overall assertion that the game lacks polish in more than a few hundred places is correct.

Edited January 2, 2012 by EwokLuvr

[Jalden]

I expand on your rejection:

 

The man, or MMO, with the most money is not the best man, or MMO, nor the most successful.

 

Example:

 

CoH is a better RTS than Starcraft 2. It has better graphics, a higher skill ceiling, more interesting and varied strategies, an original take on the RTS formula.

 

BUT

 

SC2 outsold CoH by 10 times or more.

 

Why? SC2 has better brand recognition and has nostalgia working for it.

 

Blizzard could poop in a box and outsell many companies, not because blizzard's box poop is better, but because it has a blizzard logo on the poop.

 

You need to compare two other games, SC2 is way better than CoH. And yes, I have played both.

[JustTed]

Well said OP, but mindless Fanboys (see above) are already on their way to shout you down.

 

"WoW is the best! Anyone who disagrees is a mindless fanboy."

 

Get it?

 

If the game isn't the way you want don't play it. It couldn't be simpler.

 

As for offering advice to one of the most successful game companies in history, let me ask you this: how many games have you shipped in your career, Raein? 'Cause I'm guessing zero.

[Excedrin]

When EQ first came out (the first year or so), people like that got ignored, and shunned. As EQ progressed, and grew, more and more 'adult' children started playing it, and it became harder to have to deal with them.

 

This is one reason why I truly hope that SWTOR doesn't have an ignore list limit, as I find myself ignoring people regularly.

 

~S

 

No they didn't, are you kidding me? People hung on the words of people like Furor. I think the FoH website was one of the most popular EQ related websites there was. His input was so valued that Blizzard took him in on the development of WoW. He now makes a fine amount of money off the fact that he was a jerk of a raid leader that did world firsts and knew encounter design well.

 

Again, rose tinted glasses. You don't want Bioware to make the game like EQ, it would fail hard.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Excedrin

[Lividcalm]

Post moved. Edited January 2, 2012 by Lividcalm

[jvonrader]

Right. If the car you bought has a problem, you take it to the dealer shop and respectfully say "Hey guys, I think there's a problem with the radiator."

 

So the dealer shop who gave you a warranty will take it in, and spend however long it takes them to fix the radiator.

 

You don't walk into the shop and start crying on the floor about how your 7 year-old Honda hasn't had a radiator problem in years, and that means it's a better car, and why are you people doing this to me??!?!, Mommy I want my blanket!!!!!

[Yfelsung]

Go to a vendor and try and filter the items it has for sale by "usable". Nothing happens.

 

There is a 100+ page thread on this same forum about the combat lag, it's not just me and it's not related to latency or computer specs.

 

The AH sucks. You can't search for armor by slot and you can't just type an items name into the search field without going through 2-4 sub menus first.

 

The point is, even if these things are "on the way" they should have been in the game on day 1. They are basic level things that every MMO has had for the past 7 years.

 

I'm not asking for an instant end game here. If you can create a fully voiced MMO you HAVE to be technically able to code a functioning vendor filter.

 

I've never had to use the vendor filter and I'm almost level 50, so I'm sure it sucks it doesn't work, but I also don't see the purpose of using it if I've managed this long without it.

 

And if they allowed you to search by name without filtering first, you'd cause more strain on the server. You ever seen what happens to a server in WoW if you get just a couple people to do an AH scan with Auctioneer at the same time? You can actually increase the server lag using Auctioneer.

 

So I have no problem with making you filter results before using the name search, as that has a purpose to it.

 

And my point is, yes, they left out some very basic functions... basic functions that technically aren't required to play the game and enjoy it.

 

Missing a few basic, though ultimately minor, features does not make a game bad.

 

And as for "several page posts" of people complaining about issue a or issue b, I stopped listening to the masses a long time ago. I don't care if there's a million page thread on a subject, most members of the human race are stupider than some animal species, their opinions or experiences are of no value.

 

The combat is smooth and responsive for me and every member of my guild, so that's all that matters.

 

The fact is, SWTOR is an amazingly fun game with a lot of minor flaws, but every flaw is minor and, so far, hasn't detracted from my enjoyment of the game.

 

Even with all the flaws, SWTOR is a superior RPG to WoW.

[Mamono]

Are you really that stupid, or just trolling?

 

TOR offers full voice acting, not just for quest NPCs, but for you, your companions, other players, and even random NPCs out in the world. No other game offers this. It is a truly innovative concept to offer a FULLY voiced MMO.

 

Story? Really? TOR is one of the first MMOs I've ever played that grabs you and pulls you into the story, making it feel like you're a true part of the world you're playing in. Are you a Sith Lord? All the NPCs are going to treat you as such, and when they don't the game offers you the ability to put them in their place. Are you just a Bounty Hunter? Don't expect the same measure of respect the Sith Warrior next to you is going to get. Little variations like that draw you into the story, something no other MMO does.

 

Warcraft's Lore has been shot to hell ever since they added the Draenei in Burning Crusade. It was a sloppy, last-minute job, and their story has never been expanded on. The only quests that ever made you feel you were part of the world in Warcraft have since been removed (Scepter of the Shifting Sands, The Missing Diplomat, etc). Rift tried to tell you a story, but they never really brought you into the world. I always felt seperate from everything going on, which is why I quit playing. TOR works from its established Lore base, builds on it, and so far hasn't jumped the shark on anything, and seems to remain largely in line with the greater Star Wars universe, which is a major accomplishment on its own.

 

So yes, TOR has its faults, which I freely acknowledge, but to say it hasn't lived up to being "innovative" in any way is just plain ignorance.

 

Again, the ONLY two things that you mention are story and voice acting. Non off it is innovative.

Want me to buy you an mp3 book from Amazon?

And the story is SMALL! The story is so small part of youre character it is not fun.

If you go from 1-50 trough PvE and questiong, how many non class story related quests are you doing compered to class story related quests?

If you make a 2nd character you end up doing the same quests all over again, just like any other MMO.

No, the class story is a nice thing, but you can not build a whole game around the small story it delivers.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Mamono

[Myrmedus]

Actually... I believe that neither one is. On one hand, WoW at release was years ago - and theoretically games and the MMO genre have evolved since then, meaning that your new game should be up to date with the industry standards. On the other hand, WoW does have many years of constant polishing and improvement - whereas TOR has a mere 2 weeks.

 

IMO:

 

Compare TOR with WoW release when it comes to the amount and variety of content.

 

Compare TOR with WOW in its current iteration when it comes to more technical issues, as well as gameplay, functionality and "quality of life".

 

I'm not fully disagreeing with you, since I said in my original post comparing TOR release to WoW release is simply a better comparison but not perfect, but I would like to ask: what do you think has actually improved for MMOs in terms of industry standards since 2004? If we look at all the MMOs released since then quite honestly the only thing that has significantly improved is graphics, and other things that you quite aptly put like quality of life etc. but even with a modern MMO I would not expect those things to be superior upon initial release.

 

That isn't to say I don't think certain things can be improved but the issue is that when you get into the meat of an MMO, the gameplay, the mechanics etc. what an "improvement" is to the community is entirely subjective. For example, to me, I would prefer endgame to require less dedication to be competitive and be based more on skill. As WoW has evolved it went from needing to fully dedicate yourself to like it was a job (40-man raids) to being able to play more casually (10-man) and/or let skill talk (Rated BGs/Arena). However, some people complain about these changes and think they're bad. Some people think you shouldn't be able to be competitive while playing an MMO more casually, even if you're a very skilled player. The issue is that the demographic for an MMO is so large and varied that what constitutes "improvement" is blurred.

 

In fact, if we expand this even further and consider it for all games: what has improved? I'd argue that between 2004 and now the main things that have improved in games is, again, graphics. There have been improvements to things such as polish/refinements making the games play more smoothly, some new gameplay mechanics introduced into games (but have not necessarily improved the quality of gameplay!) etc.

 

This is the reason why older games like the Zeldas or BG2 etc. still stand up today as great games, and why Nintendo is able to release Zelda game after Zelda game with essentially the same gameplay and it still covets great reviews: because not alot has changed. This is the reason why games like Dark Souls are sought after with more legacy-style gameplay because in today's market it feels like a great deal of games have simply created gameplay style niches (Assassin's Creed series for example), or dumbed down things entirely, rather than significantly improved gameplay.

 

And why is that? Because gameplay isn't something you can really improve. Some people still prefer to play a good old game of Solitare over a computer game because what is fun is subjective.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Myrmedus

[Tsillah]

TOR should be compared to World of Warcraft 4.3, and the fact that it cannot in any way come close to matching what the current model offers is why so many people are frustrated with the game as it currently stands.

 

Ok, so I can see your general sentiments here but this is the part that ruined your post for me in terms of credibility.

 

First of all, I never played WoW so I never made the comparison. This leads to my second point where I agree with you and all the others you speak of. I do not think that this game should be compared to WoW at all.

 

I find it a shame that you start using terms like empirical evidence and then make a statement about "so many people are frustrated", which is entirely the opposite way of making a point. I would've preferred you stayed in the empirical area.

 

There are a number of people frustrated by various things. I see more often that people complain about things, functions, whatever that they had in a different game. I do not necessarily agree that all of these things should be a given. That's just something that certain people think. I don't.

 

What you should know is that, when we get factual data like 1.5 million people playing this game, that the actual amount of people complaining about these things here on the forum, is a mere fraction of that. If 100.000 people would complain about it in two weeks, it would mean about 7000 original threads per day. And that wouldn't be even 10% of the player base. Just saying.

 

What I would wish, is that people would stop overestimating the forum rants. They represent a certain amount of players, but that's as far as you can go.

 

Any game that starts has this problem. People start and it isn't what they expected. Of course now they complain about missing functionality and if it had been there, they would've complained even more about how this game is a copy of WoW in another universe.

 

The key element is always: do I enjoy playing this game or not. The answer to that question tells you whether you should be playing this game or not.

 

Any fixes or changes will take time. Why would you play the game hoping for changes if they are game breaking. It's good when people quit playing when they don't like it. This is a clear indication to a company that they need changes and which changes.

 

So, I like the game. I think it needs changes and fixes but at this time I enjoy playing it, so I stay. Those who have a problem with it should leave because it will make the game better...either because we have less people whining or because there will be positive changes as a consequence (or both ).

[Yfelsung]

You need to compare two other games, SC2 is way better than CoH. And yes, I have played both.

 

I can't agree.

 

SC2 is SC1 with better graphics.

 

it's 10 years behind the RTS genre.

 

Every RTS Relic has ever released has been superior to every RTS Blizzard ever released with the exception of Warcraft 3.

 

Warcraft 3 was Blizzard's best RTS game. SC2 actually is a step backward from WC3. Where's the heroes? Where's the creeps? The item shops? Being good at WC3 was like being good at SC1 and DOTA at the same time. SC2 is just so one dimensional.

 

WC3 was a massive innovation in the RTS genre, then they took a dump and released SC1 with a new skin.

[kasumimi]

The smartphone comparison is retarded.

You expect a 15year old athlete to compete with 22year old one? This is a *********** MMO, not the phone you use to like girls pic when you are skipping class.

 

SWTOR's launch ***** all over WoW's launch (and on every other MMO for that matter) on every single level, but hey there's no /roll option and to easymode LFG tool so the game is doomed and can't be compared.

 

SWTOR's foundations are good, whether or not the Devs will be smart enough to improve and make the game better is a completely different topic.

 

WoW is the facebook of gaming and the gamer-hybrid it has spawned is simply disgusting - and everywhere. You don't like the game? Don't play it, spare us the "game dev insight".

Edited January 2, 2012 by kasumimi