It's unbelievable that anyone thinks this is okay.

[JBloom]

Yeah I think it's pretty dumb that there aren't brackets of some kind, but I just think of it as paying my dues. I'm level 49 now and I get to be the one owning lowbies.

[FrieAaron]

I've people assert a lot that having brackets would slow down queues a lot. Where is this coming from? This doesn't seem guaranteed to me.

 

Say you have 10,000 people online at a time with three brackets:

1-30 - 3,000

30-49 - 5,000

50 - 2,000

 

Why does this guarantee that queuing at level 32 will be any slower than with no brackets? Yes, there are more people pvping, but there are also more people in queue that you're waiting behind.

[Quiksillver]

The fact that there's a debate around the lack of bracketing is mind numbing. This is common sense. For as much expertise and time it takes to craft a massive game like this, lacking common sense to the extent that they'll allow new level 12s to make an attempt at a warzone and be instantly converged on by level 40s and 50s is astounding.

 

It reminds me of some of the things I saw in Star Wars Galaxy back when it first came out. I was a seasoned MMORPGer at the time, having spent a great deal of time pvping in Dark Age of Camelot.

 

People in Beta were training in creature handling and taming multiple rancors, which, individually, could kill any player. I thought this was some kind of beta oversight that would never make it live, and it did. The thought that a company was able to make a complex game but lack common sense to that level made my jaw drop. I just couldn't believe it. Everyone in port was running around with two mountainous beasts following them.

 

Brackets in WOW always seemed like common sense to me. It was just assumed. "Oh, level 15s can queue for battlegrounds too?" It was just assumed that they'd be against people in their own level range because that was common sense. You never even considered the possiblity that you'd be fighting level 50s.

 

It speaks to not just bad judgement by bioware that level 12s are queueing against level 50s, but it speaks to sort of a perversion of common sense, that's now pervading the playerbase. The fact that this is even a discussion is amazing to this old hound, but I suspect I'm not alone.

 

We all know that brackets will go in sooner or later. It's a fact. Why? Because, as a rational human being, I recognize it as common sense. Whether the developers and community see it now is irrelevant. Brackets will be coming and one day people will look back at this and facepalm.

 

So just do it sooner rather than later to keep the embarrassment (and damage to the culture of PVP in this game) to a minimum.

 

Trust me lots of people here think the PvP IS FINE! And they are severely mistaken, I already unsubbed because of the state of PvP here and won't justify spending 15 bucks a month on such a broken system. And for the people who say "leave noob we don't care" or "don't let the door hit you on the way out" I just rofl because they are kids that don't understand business, for every person that leaves this game gets worse because their funding is cut off, meaning the game YOU ARE STAYING for is LOSING FUNDS AND THEREFORE QUALITY.. When it first came out I laughed at people who said it would go F2P but now I see that might be the case afterall if they don't make some serious changes.

[Repefe]

It's hilariour OP uses WoW as an example ... lvl 10 player joins BG for the first time and see ppl who have 5x his hp and literaly one shot him. As seasoned MMO player you shouldn't care about fighting lvl 50 players, because your seasoned skill should compensate for it. I can kill players 20-30 lvls higher if they are not expertise decked with 5k consumables ready ... if you can't the problem is not in the game. Edited January 2, 2012 by Repefe

[AWDBAHL]

I've people assert a lot that having brackets would slow down queues a lot. Where is this coming from? This doesn't seem guaranteed to me.

 

Say you have 10,000 people online at a time with three brackets:

1-30 - 3,000

30-49 - 5,000

50 - 2,000

 

Why does this guarantee that queuing at level 32 will be any slower than with no brackets? Yes, there are more people pvping, but there are also more people in queue that you're waiting behind.

 

Your argument is garbage. Just because there are X people online doesnt mean they all want to PvP and it doesnt mean the ones that actually do will que up when you do. WoW servers had great numbers and they were bracketed, and yet they still had problems even after cross server BG's were implemented and you had a pool from literally 20 servers. The only active brackets were 10-19 and max level. You might get a queue to pop in between but dont hold your breath.

 

Its a proven reality that splitting up the playerbase leads to longer queues. WoW developers have struggled with that problem since they implemented battlegrounds in that game. One of the things i love about this game is that i can queue and get into a game always in under 5 minutes (on death wind corridor, relatively high pop).

 

Another thing to consider is that if you can hold your own, or even achieve some small measure of success as a level 19 among 50's in PvP you will be a wrecking ball once you eliminate the gear and class ability disparity. It trains people who can put up with the frustration of being underpowered.

[Sraom]

At least make it so that Expertise doesn't function in warzones with low-level players. Current state is understandable; in my server there are less than 10 level 50s as of yet I think, but expertise will allow level 50s to utterly destroy lower level players.

 

Also low levels shouldn't be encouraged to play a lot of warzone games. It gets boring quickly. Maybe experience and cash reward should be lower for each warzone game but the warzone daily could have better rewards.

[FrieAaron]

Your argument is garbage. Just because there are X people online doesnt mean they all want to PvP and it doesnt mean the ones that actually do will que up when you do. WoW servers had great numbers and they were bracketed, and yet they still had problems even after cross server BG's were implemented and you had a pool from literally 20 servers. The only active brackets were 10-19 and max level. You might get a queue to pop in between but dont hold your breath.

 

Its a proven reality that splitting up the playerbase leads to longer queues. WoW developers have struggled with that problem since they implemented battlegrounds in that game. One of the things i love about this game is that i can queue and get into a game always in under 5 minutes (on death wind corridor, relatively high pop).

 

Another thing to consider is that if you can hold your own, or even achieve some small measure of success as a level 19 among 50's in PvP you will be a wrecking ball once you eliminate the gear and class ability disparity. It trains people who can put up with the frustration of being underpowered.

 

OK fine, i could have easily written 10,000 people online pvping. It's semantics - the principal is still the same. Yes, if you compartmentalize people enough the brackets will get so small that queues will take much longer, I just question if it's being vastly overrated here.

 

There are a couple of things you're not considering here.

 

1. I'm talking about 3 or maybe even 2 brackets, whereas WoW had what...5 originally? I'm not even sure how many now. Blostering helps, but not enough to make a level 12 really care to play against a level 50.

 

2. Population of factions plays a huge part in both games as far as speed of queues. Far greater than brackets would. You're talking about your personal experience with queues taking forever in WoW when many people, myself included, had the exact opposite experience.

 

And yes, it feels good to know that when my friends and I do well against people 20 levels higher than us, and I have no doubt we would stomp those people when our gear is equal. That being said, the possibility of lower levels succeeding doesn't mean there isn't some major imbalance there.

[Almghty_gir]

brackets are not the solution, removing expertise is.

[Lymain]

brackets are not the solution, removing expertise is.

 

Not sure about removing expertise, but the level 50 purple gear is definitely the problem. For level 14-49, the bolster system works better than brackets would in my opinion.

[FrieAaron]

Actually, in my perfect world these instanced pvp matches would have both teams in exactly equal gear and stats, but people would cry way too much at that methinks. I do love me some huge open world battles that might not be balanced (unfortunately it sounds like that may be quite disappointing in this game) but if you're going to go through the trouble of trying to have a competitive match of something, just go all the way.

[Celairnaur]

In WOW, I've rolled and rerolled many times. I've gone up through the BGs many times. If you step into a BG at level 10-15 or so as a total newb, then yes, twinked level 19 will kick your ***. The difference is the disparity. You can pull yourself up by your bootstraps, level up to 17-18-19, get some decent blues, and while the most twinked people will still have the upper hand, you CAN compete and there will be plenty of people whose *** you can kick. And it repeats each bracket as you level up. 10-19 you go through zero to hero. 20-29 you go through zero to hero. 30-39.. etc. I've done this. Many times.

 

You face adversity, but there's no presence of level 40s and 50s that will always outmatch you, no matter what you do, no matter how hard you work, until you yourself hit those levels. That's the difference. And bolstering -- don't make me laugh. Unless you want to bolster the stats about twice as much as they are now, which may create other strange problems. It's just not a good idea in general.

 

This is ruining PVP.

 

I disagree and agree.

 

Lvl 50s with expertise should be in their own bracket period. Or they should lose expertise while fighting players without it.

 

Yet i was able to get my armour and weapons to purple at lvl 16 and I was able to cream lvl 30 players with greens and blues because it bulstered my gear up with me.

 

I found that bolstered i had a chance against anyone lvl 49 or below. If someone was twice my lvl or less i could win a fair amount against them depending on player skill. Against people 3 times or higher i had difficulty and they would beat me more times then i would beat them BUT I could still beat them. With lvl 50's i was simply just a maniquin for them to attack and rack up damage and kills with.

[Almghty_gir]

Not sure about removing expertise, but the level 50 purple gear is definitely the problem. For level 14-49, the bolster system works better than brackets would in my opinion.

 

if you're a lowbie in purple gear, your stats will be almost on-par with 50's in good gear. there might be a difference of ~100 strength/aim/cunning/willpower etc. but that's only 20 damage bonus, so it's really not that much.

 

expertise is a whole other issue. if you're fighting someone who has it and you don't, it's like you're permanently taunted, and they have a permanent enrage bonus. it's a HUGE disparity.

 

the argument that expertise is to make up for the difference in stats between top level pvp gear and top level raid gear is asinine, as the difference in stats is absolutely minimal.

[jazzbrownie]

I agree entirely with the OP... and I seriously don't understand why people think "bolstering" is enough to compensate for the difference in levels. Go into a match without any points in your skill trees and see how well you do.

 

As for concerns about queue times... they could just split the servers into groups that queue together.

[Dalindran]

In WOW, I've rolled and rerolled many times. I've gone up through the BGs many times. If you step into a BG at level 10-15 or so as a total newb, then yes, twinked level 19 will kick your ***.

 

In WoW you didn't even have battlegrounds for the first 6 months. So quit comparing things you clearly know nothing about. Obviously you are a BC baby. The game has barely been out 2 weeks stop comparing it to a game that is over 6 years old and still hasn't gotten things right. Nuff said.

 

Have fun !

 

PS: And for all those who love bringing up games like DAoC and Warhammer (I played them both) when discussing PvP (God knows I see this in every single new game that comes out) if you love how they handled PvP so much why aren't you playing those games huh? Why are you here?

[Lividcalm]

The fact that there's a debate around the lack of bracketing is mind numbing. This is common sense. For as much expertise and time it takes to craft a massive game like this, lacking common sense to the extent that they'll allow new level 12s to make an attempt at a warzone and be instantly converged on by level 40s and 50s is astounding.

 

There are not enough lvl 50 players yet, once there are they will be making brackets. For now just be patient.

 

It reminds me of some of the things I saw in Star Wars Galaxy back when it first came out. I was a seasoned MMORPGer at the time, having spent a great deal of time pvping in Dark Age of Camelot.

 

People in Beta were training in creature handling and taming multiple rancors, which, individually, could kill any player.

 

Absolutely not true, I was a TK Master / Doc and I could easily take down 3-4 wild rancors. The tamed ones weren't nearly as dangerous as I would regularly destroy Creature Handlers with 2 Rancs or 2 Grauls in tow.

 

I thought this was some kind of beta oversight that would never make it live, and it did. The thought that a company was able to make a complex game but lack common sense to that level made my jaw drop. I just couldn't believe it. Everyone in port was running around with two mountainous beasts following them.

 

Again, this was not a bug or oversight, Rancors were not that hard to beat, unless you were a lowbie. Even before I hit TK master I was able to take Rancors down.

 

Brackets in WOW always seemed like common sense to me. It was just assumed. "Oh, level 15s can queue for battlegrounds too?" It was just assumed that they'd be against people in their own level range because that was common sense. You never even considered the possiblity that you'd be fighting level 50s.

 

It speaks to not just bad judgement by bioware that level 12s are queueing against level 50s, but it speaks to sort of a perversion of common sense, that's now pervading the playerbase. The fact that this is even a discussion is amazing to this old hound, but I suspect I'm not alone.

 

We all know that brackets will go in sooner or later. It's a fact. Why? Because, as a rational human being, I recognize it as common sense. Whether the developers and community see it now is irrelevant. Brackets will be coming and one day people will look back at this and facepalm.

 

Ok, so if you know that they will be added, then why the need for a post? Once there are more max levels, then the brackets will make more sense.

 

So just do it sooner rather than later to keep the embarrassment (and damage to the culture of PVP in this game) to a minimum.

 

Or you could just level another toon and experience more of the amazing story lines Bioware has laid out for us and worry about PvP in a few weeks.

 

 

Just my 2 cents.

[FrieAaron]

In WoW you didn't even have battlegrounds for the first 6 months. So quit comparing things you clearly know nothing about. Obviously you are a BC baby. The game has barely been out 2 weeks stop comparing it to a game that is over 6 years old and still hasn't gotten things right. Nuff said.

 

Have fun !

 

PS: And for all those who love bringing up games like DAoC and Warhammer (I played them both) when discussing PvP (God knows I see this in every single new game that comes out) if you love how they handled PvP so much why aren't you playing those games huh? Why are you here?

 

That's one thing you (even haters) have to give Blizzard credit for though. They typically don't release things that aren't ready. I was disappointed WoW didn't have pvp from the start, but what it did have it was very good at.

 

Warzones were something that Bioware put in their product. They were a feature of what people paid money for. They absolutely have a right to complain.

[Xaes]

you hit the same at 50 as your do at 10(well with a marauder at least except for smash)

 

You cant compare wows brackets to sw:tor because wow does not bolster.

 

Longer queues etc...you know all the other arguements im sure they are listed in one of the bajillion threads.

 

I can 3v1 level 10s on my 50 in a warfront. Expertise works much better than advertised.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Xaes

[nomanking]

The bolster system tries to match u with ppl around ur lvl. If it not possible it puts u with higher or lower lvl. Im lvl 50 now and wen i que i get ppl mostly 80% of ppl 40-50 lvl most 50s and i warzone alot. Like 20 games a day

[Chrisbox]

It's hilariour OP uses WoW as an example ... lvl 10 player joins BG for the first time and see ppl who have 5x his hp and literaly one shot him. As seasoned MMO player you shouldn't care about fighting lvl 50 players, because your seasoned skill should compensate for it. I can kill players 20-30 lvls higher if they are not expertise decked with 5k consumables ready ... if you can't the problem is not in the game.

 

+1. These unsubbed kids who aren't good enough to beat 50's think that they are the majority or something lol makes me laugh. If they get a good team, get good at pvp, then anyone is set to roll out in swtor.

[Halbe]

The bolster system tries to match u with ppl around ur lvl. If it not possible it puts u with higher or lower lvl. Im lvl 50 now and wen i que i get ppl mostly 80% of ppl 40-50 lvl most 50s and i warzone alot. Like 20 games a day

 

What freaking server is this?

 

On mine, I'm lucky to see 3 other 50's on our side. For the last 2-3 Warzones we've been going up against what I assume is a Republic premade. Average lvl outside of me for our side is probably 30'ish.

 

Same for huttball. I'll get in with a premade on the opposition. It never seems like the sides are "balanced" at all.

 

Don't get me wrong, I've had quite a few matches against just overwhelmed teams as well. It doesn't seem like there is any rhythm or reason behind it.

[Desgarden]

And do you think everyone agrees with you on that?

 

The forums is a minority in games dude.

 

I would gladly be beaten once, and have around 5 minute queues.

Then be dont have to face higher level players, but only get a warfront every 40 minutes, like for example RIFT and AoC.

 

Im not saying the system is perfect, but its a hellofalot better then JUST brackets.

Does it need tweaking? Maybe, but turned into JUST brackets? No thanks.

 

Well, the Republic side of my server seems to agree on that (we Imps field so many 50s already that we win nearly every match and walz over their level 10s and 20s (so much for brackets I guess).)

 

The long term damage to pvp is obvious already because we play Huttball 24/7...which wasn't the case at the beginning of the game. Heck, I cannot blame the Reps or how do you think do the level 10s and 20s feel when a pack of 50s cream them from head to toe?

Edited January 2, 2012 by Desgarden

[xHPx]

The fact that there's a debate around the lack of bracketing is mind numbing. This is common sense. For as much expertise and time it takes to craft a massive game like this, lacking common sense to the extent that they'll allow new level 12s to make an attempt at a warzone and be instantly converged on by level 40s and 50s is astounding.

 

It reminds me of some of the things I saw in Star Wars Galaxy back when it first came out. I was a seasoned MMORPGer at the time, having spent a great deal of time pvping in Dark Age of Camelot.

 

People in Beta were training in creature handling and taming multiple rancors, which, individually, could kill any player. I thought this was some kind of beta oversight that would never make it live, and it did. The thought that a company was able to make a complex game but lack common sense to that level made my jaw drop. I just couldn't believe it. Everyone in port was running around with two mountainous beasts following them.

 

Brackets in WOW always seemed like common sense to me. It was just assumed. "Oh, level 15s can queue for battlegrounds too?" It was just assumed that they'd be against people in their own level range because that was common sense. You never even considered the possiblity that you'd be fighting level 50s.

 

It speaks to not just bad judgement by bioware that level 12s are queueing against level 50s, but it speaks to sort of a perversion of common sense, that's now pervading the playerbase. The fact that this is even a discussion is amazing to this old hound, but I suspect I'm not alone.

 

We all know that brackets will go in sooner or later. It's a fact. Why? Because, as a rational human being, I recognize it as common sense. Whether the developers and community see it now is irrelevant. Brackets will be coming and one day people will look back at this and facepalm.

 

So just do it sooner rather than later to keep the embarrassment (and damage to the culture of PVP in this game) to a minimum.

 

Level 15 vs lvl 19 twink & Level 30 vs lvl 50 with bolster. And why do you make an entire new thread about this? Why not just post your opinion in one of the other threads with baddies who doesn't know how to play? Whine there instead and bond with the other noobs and you can discuss how hard you're going to cancel your subscription... eventually

[nomanking]

What freaking server is this?

 

On mine, I'm lucky to see 3 other 50's on our side. For the last 2-3 Warzones we've been going up against what I assume is a Republic premade. Average lvl outside of me for our side is probably 30'ish.

 

Same for huttball. I'll get in with a premade on the opposition. It never seems like the sides are "balanced" at all.

 

Don't get me wrong, I've had quite a few matches against just overwhelmed teams as well. It doesn't seem like there is any rhythm or reason behind it.

 

Its mandalorian something server pvp. Sorry i dont know complete name. My server is always very heavy or full all the time. Uve never seen it going lower then heavy. Im not lying. I wz alot. I speak from xperiance. May b its different in other servers

[Monterone]

The fact that there's a debate around the lack of bracketing is mind numbing. This is common sense. For as much expertise and time it takes to craft a massive game like this, lacking common sense to the extent that they'll allow new level 12s to make an attempt at a warzone and be instantly converged on by level 40s and 50s is astounding.

 

It reminds me of some of the things I saw in Star Wars Galaxy back when it first came out. I was a seasoned MMORPGer at the time, having spent a great deal of time pvping in Dark Age of Camelot.

 

People in Beta were training in creature handling and taming multiple rancors, which, individually, could kill any player. I thought this was some kind of beta oversight that would never make it live, and it did. The thought that a company was able to make a complex game but lack common sense to that level made my jaw drop. I just couldn't believe it. Everyone in port was running around with two mountainous beasts following them.

 

Brackets in WOW always seemed like common sense to me. It was just assumed. "Oh, level 15s can queue for battlegrounds too?" It was just assumed that they'd be against people in their own level range because that was common sense. You never even considered the possiblity that you'd be fighting level 50s.

 

It speaks to not just bad judgement by bioware that level 12s are queueing against level 50s, but it speaks to sort of a perversion of common sense, that's now pervading the playerbase. The fact that this is even a discussion is amazing to this old hound, but I suspect I'm not alone.

 

We all know that brackets will go in sooner or later. It's a fact. Why? Because, as a rational human being, I recognize it as common sense. Whether the developers and community see it now is irrelevant. Brackets will be coming and one day people will look back at this and facepalm.

 

So just do it sooner rather than later to keep the embarrassment (and damage to the culture of PVP in this game) to a minimum.

 

Bud, 50s would love nothing more than this too. On our server, the pubs only queue if they're in pre-mades so chances of our pre-made ending up fighting a double pre-made are getting higher and higher every day. Then we look at what the other 4 players are in our group, and its three people in teens and a random level 30.

 

Is this making us better players, that we have to fight off eight 50s -- sure, but I'd like to not be grouped with people who just bought the game.

 

I'm in a guild FOR A REASON, and I would like to team up with the people I joined the guild to team up with. Let us queue up 8 people, so we don't have to guide teens by their hands in warzones.

[Avatorius]

I agree brackets is common sense even if I personally don't mind the struggle uphill and challenge of being low level in WZ.

 

In fact, I could already be 50 but I rather slowly enjoy the game and so I'm only 30 by now... and I still go in WZ plenty and enjoy it.

 

It's tiring to come to forums to see about 10 new threads per day about brackets and warzones... and the same arguments being tossed over and over. (like how SOME people do well on their lowbies and obviously it's just skill; while SOME others claim that they can 1v3 on their 50s and think it's preposterous).

 

Yes, there should at least be two brackets because yes it makes sense. Yes, it'll double the waiting time. But the waiting time in prime time on good servers is like 5 seconds to 1 minute. So erm.. yeah, I'm sure anyone can endure waiting double-that.

 

 

 

I think people need to sit back and think of what harm it'd really do to put brackets (if not the waiting time increase). I can't think of ONE reason why brackets would be "a bad thing"

Edited January 3, 2012 by Avatorius