It's unbelievable that anyone thinks this is okay.

[onstorm]

While I've tried other MMO's I never really played any others as they just seemed pointless and boring. That being said I am a complete newbie to MMOs and PVP. At first when I started playing and saw my lvl 30 something guy was going up against a 50, I thought it was insane.

 

To make a long story short, I found I love PVP so went and bought some gaming peripherals to help get me away from the slow clicking of abilities. To learn using these I rolled a new character so I could slowly pick up on using all the new butttons.

 

I've been playing PVP with my new character since lvl 12 and have found no real problems going against people much higher than me. I have found the bolster system works pretty well. While I've never been at the top of the "leader board" my now lvl 14 character has been as high as 4 overall and 2 on my team.

 

I don't know enough to say whether bracketing would work better, but find the current system to be fine and even at lvl 14 i'm doing pretty well (not dominating in anyway shape or form mind you) and having a blast in PVP.

[twotimingpete]

While I've tried other MMO's I never really played any others as they just seemed pointless and boring. That being said I am a complete newbie to MMOs and PVP. At first when I started playing and saw my lvl 30 something guy was going up against a 50, I thought it was insane.

 

To make a long story short, I found I love PVP so went and bought some gaming peripherals to help get me away from the slow clicking of abilities. To learn using these I rolled a new character so I could slowly pick up on using all the new butttons.

 

I've been playing PVP with my new character since lvl 12 and have found no real problems going against people much higher than me. I have found the bolster system works pretty well. While I've never been at the top of the "leader board" my now lvl 14 character has been as high as 4 overall and 2 on my team.

 

I don't know enough to say whether bracketing would work better, but find the current system to be fine and even at lvl 14 i'm doing pretty well (not dominating in anyway shape or form mind you) and having a blast in PVP.

 

And I prefer a system where you can climb to the top of each bracket and be king for a while, then move to the next and grow up all over again. Rather than ALWAYS being overmatched.

 

For every person like you who enjoys the challenge and doesn't seem to mind having a constant disadvantage, there are many more who will simply try a few times then never come back. If a healthy pvp community is an active pvp community, this system is bad for the community in the long term.

[LogicalPremise]

Its unbelievable that you guys dont know that the current system is a "Bracket first, gear second, bolster third" system, and refuse to read up on how it works.

 

It's unbelievable you don't seem to understand that the system is producing results that look like this :

 

Imperial: 5 level 50's, 2 level 30's

Republic: 4 level 16's, 2 level 20's, 1 level 40

 

No - one - cares - what - the - system - is - supposed - to - do - on - paper. It is not working. Period. There are whole threads of people unsubbing because of this issue and every post like this obfuscates reality.

[Cartomancer]

Certainly feel that the level 50's should be matched against other 50's. Destroying those lower than say 40 and gaining from it is nothing short of farming and thus the cycle goes on.

 

When a character has all their passive bonuses and abilities they have an inherent advantage over their fellow architypes - throw in better gear and the expertise and more often than not, player skill and teamwork is going to be overmatched by the 50.

 

I like that the WZ's pop quickly when server is busy but not at the expense of a 'fair' fight.

 

Hopefully tweaks are made to the system, rather than huge sweeping changes that impact on the main PvE game.

[twotimingpete]

It's unbelievable you don't seem to understand that the system is producing results that look like this :

 

Imperial: 5 level 50's, 2 level 30's

Republic: 4 level 16's, 2 level 20's, 1 level 40

 

No - one - cares - what - the - system - is - supposed - to - do - on - paper. It is not working. Period. There are whole threads of people unsubbing because of this issue and every post like this obfuscates reality.

 

This is another thing that needs pointed out. The current system may seem way more attractive if you're playing imperial, because for some reason imperials tend to have more higher levels in pvp.

 

Playing as a low level republic in warzones is so unpleasant, even for an old mmo vet, that I simply see no fun to be had. I don't pay a subscription or log in to provide amusement for someone else. For this reason I don't queue.

Edited January 2, 2012 by twotimingpete

[Maosef]

It's unbelievable that people don't realize brackets result in the exact same scenario. Feel free to look at any other MMOs level bracketed PvP and you'll see the end result is no different.

 

 

Yeah people just make twinks and hold an advantage, but even at that the imbalance would be reduced. Balancing the game for all players should always be a priority and if people want to play PvP at w/e level(which they do) then bioware should evaluate and pursue options that facilitate it and allow them to play on a balanced footing; this isn't an opinion, its economics, good firms produce what the consumer wants.

 

However on the other hand a large appeal of MMORPGs is character progression, to see your character perform at a superior level relative to effort input. Level 50 should be a goal to achieve, and it should carry rewards but a lot of players seem to find acceptable and expect it to carry unfair advantages in PvP(find it entirely necessary for PvE). This in my opinion is the biggest load of nonsense and it exists in numerous games, that players who are more experienced are also better equipped when opposing lower ranked players, the former is a very natural advantage the latter is entirely artificial but is necessary to legitimize character progression(but only in a PvE environment). So to me it would seem entirely beneficial for players to be able to compete in PvP on equal footing with their foes and to introduce mechanics that allow them to do that.

 

In my Ideal world Lvl50 would still me a mark of fear, but not because they posses a greater capacity for performance but instead more akin to a higher prestige in COD, it signifies a player who is experienced and knowledgeable in the game therefore will more likely be able to control in a more optimized and efficient manner their character.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Maosef

[Manigma]

Brackets good - worked in WAR, queues were not that long and got much fairer matches than now (i'm lvl 50 with pvp gear, so most of my matches are fairly easy).

[Jyzai]

If there were brackets you would still find something to complain about.

 

With the system they have in place it cuts down on the biggest complaint from any MMO in objective pvp and thats waiting to get into one. You might enjoy long waits but I bet there are at least two or three others that hate it. There is nothing worse than waiting toget into a game only to have that game end because there is a lack of players.

 

I don`t care what you say about brackets but the ones at the top end level or gear wise are always going to be tougher to beat.

[foxkeh]

i always wondered this:

 

why do game company's want to implement fancy match up systems, where it could be so simple and logical. my idea of a system is this (btw i have suggested this in many other games like hon, lol and wow).

 

 

- make a ladder system where every character 10+ of the realm is on. Dont work with points like the elo system many games are using now. Just a ladder with places.

 

- Put in simple rules how to gain and lose places on that ladder. you can make this pure on win/lose results, or with more variables added (like the medal system)

 

- If you start your queue, the system goes looking for people above and beneath your place on the ladder. It alternates between +1 and -1 until it finds a complete group and starts the warzone

 

edit 1:

- If you queue with 2-3 friends, the system looks starting from the best player in your group. Yes, if you queue with a much lower friend your at a disadvantage, but then you need to make the priority of playing with your friends or trying to move up in the pvp system.

 

- Full premade queues need a ladder on their own, like the rated bg system of that other mmoprg.

 

Edit 2:

 

- Make an "i am interested in pvp" toggle , when this option is on the ui pops up telling you that a match is forming around your ladder spot.

 

i believe the advantages would be great.

 

i believe this system is as close as balance can get, and would create a gap based on skill: People dominating would get harder and harder matchups everytime, people who afk in the sidelines would drop till all 16 players are afk ing. matchups with an unfair advantage , like a 50 premade vs a 20 premade resulting in a 6-0 huttball would create a gap where both teams wouldnt match up for a long time. the top of the ladder would turn out to be the best pvp'rs on the realms duking it out to be among the top.

 

Queue times are instant when pugging, as the system just need the 10 closest players.

 

you would fight people around your spot in the system alot of times, creating "name recognition"

Edited January 2, 2012 by foxkeh

[Greyif]

Agree with 1-49/50 Only Bracket, in a few months.

 

I hate fighting level 50's in pvp gear on my trooper at 27 and not being able to heal that well, and just getting cc'ed and smashed... (Combat Medic)

 

So I respeced gunnery and loving wasting people with grav round, and using all my abilities to the max.

 

You have to realise that as damaging this system may currently appear to the lowbies, myself included, overall it is really not bad.. for the following reasons:

 

PRO's:

-Fast Queues

-Fast Warfront Commendations

-Reasonably Decent XP/$$ Gain

-Learning other classes pvp abilities and learning tactics to win games, because your getting more games in a faster period and your fighting harder opponents you become more skilled. (Sucks for those who give up easy-aka not hardcore pvpers)

-Girls canceling subs because they can't handle it

 

CON's:

-People Whine about fighting 50's in pvp gear

-Having to fight 50's in pvp

-Frustration that your not the guy in full pvp gear smashing lowbies lol

 

If you pvp from level 10-50 and don't do one quest, you will be one of the most skilled pvpers going around because of the painful journey you have endured to get there, might not be fun but it will make you better.

[art-media]

i like ladder systems

[twotimingpete]

Agree with 1-49/50 Only Bracket, in a few months.

 

I hate fighting level 50's in pvp gear on my trooper at 27 and not being able to heal that well, and just getting cc'ed and smashed... (Combat Medic)

 

So I respeced gunnery and loving wasting people with grav round, and using all my abilities to the max.

 

You have to realise that as damaging this system may currently appear to the lowbies, myself included, overall it is really not bad.. for the following reasons:

 

PRO's:

-Fast Queues

-Fast Warfront Commendations

-Reasonably Decent XP/$$ Gain

-Learning other classes pvp abilities and learning tactics to win games, because your getting more games in a faster period and your fighting harder opponents you become more skilled. (Sucks for those who give up easy-aka not hardcore pvpers)

-Girls canceling subs because they can't handle it

 

CON's:

-People Whine about fighting 50's in pvp gear

-Having to fight 50's in pvp

-Frustration that your not the guy in full pvp gear smashing lowbies lol

 

If you pvp from level 10-50 and don't do one quest, you will be one of the most skilled pvpers going around because of the painful journey you have endured to get there, might not be fun but it will make you better.

 

For me, "fast queue times" became "no queue at all" because it takes a special kind of person who queues up under level 20 and finds it fun enough to keep coming back. Bioware shouldn't design for that special kind of weirdo, but for the common man.

[Greyif]

For me, "fast queue times" became "no queue at all" because it takes a special kind of person who queues up under level 20 and finds it fun enough to keep coming back. Bioware shouldn't design for that special kind of weirdo, but for the common man.

 

I like pvp, and I like being the underdog, what bragging right's come with beating a level 10 when your a level 50? none.. but oh the stories you can tell when you flog a 50 at 10

 

In group pvp a ranged level 10 can do enough dmg to take out a 50. Just stick with the team, and use everything you have. And when your winning 80% of games even as republic, it is definitely fun

[foxkeh]

I like pvp, and I like being the underdog, what bragging right's come with beating a level 10 when your a level 50? none.. but oh the stories you can tell when you flog a 50 at 10

 

In group pvp a ranged level 10 can do enough dmg to take out a 50. Just stick with the team, and use everything you have. And when your winning 80% of games even as republic, it is definitely fun

 

Yep, but thats also one of the major flaws of the system. I have a sniper, merc healer and a assasin. All 3 characters give me total different enjoyments in pvp ranging from having a blast -- feeling productive -- stealth afk in the warzone. Not everyone is a ranged class.

Edited January 2, 2012 by foxkeh

[Dannicus]

In WOW, I've rolled and rerolled many times. I've gone up through the BGs many times. If you step into a BG at level 10-15 or so as a total newb, then yes, twinked level 19 will kick your ***. The difference is the disparity. You can pull yourself up by your bootstraps, level up to 17-18-19, get some decent blues, and while the most twinked people will still have the upper hand, you CAN compete and there will be plenty of people whose *** you can kick. And it repeats each bracket as you level up. 10-19 you go through zero to hero. 20-29 you go through zero to hero. 30-39.. etc. I've done this. Many times.

 

You face adversity, but there's no presence of level 40s and 50s that will always outmatch you, no matter what you do, no matter how hard you work, until you yourself hit those levels. That's the difference. And bolstering -- don't make me laugh. Unless you want to bolster the stats about twice as much as they are now, which may create other strange problems. It's just not a good idea in general.

 

This is ruining PVP.

 

Wow. Congratulations. You've just pointed out one of the BIGGEST problems with bracketed systems in the whole, as you put it "zero to hero" scenario. You can't do crap until you're as twinked out as they are. So, tell me, please, how going back to THAT, where NO ONE except for the twinks is any value is in any way a good idea? Whereas right now I can pop in at level 10 now and still be a benefit even against teams of all 40s and higher, in a bracket system popping in at level 10 puts me against the twinks.

 

A lot of it comes down to player skill, their capacity with their own class, their knowledge of their class, strengths, weaknesses, who to target, when to target, situational awareness, and so on and so forth. All we need is for the Bolster system to get some improvements.

 

All it needs is for...

• Sprint to be level 10
  
• Tank AC's to get guard, taunt, and tank stance at 10
  
• The impact of bolster to increase as much as 30%, especially for sub-20s
  
• Level 50s (or even 48+) to bolster down and require blues to compensate
  
• Expertise to be capped
  
• An optional 50's only bracket to be introduced that removes Expertise cap and bolster effects
  

 

Every single problem with brackets has been solved, mitigated, negated, or made less negatively impactful by the Bolster system. It's the best PVP system we have seen for a theme-park level-based MMO. Suggest improvements, not downgrades.

[twotimingpete]

Wow. Congratulations. You've just pointed out one of the BIGGEST problems with bracketed systems in the whole, as you put it "zero to hero" scenario. You can't do crap until you're as twinked out as they are. So, tell me, please, how going back to THAT, where NO ONE except for the twinks is any value is in any way a good idea? Whereas right now I can pop in at level 10 now and still be a benefit even against teams of all 40s and higher, in a bracket system popping in at level 10 puts me against the twinks.

 

A lot of it comes down to player skill, their capacity with their own class, their knowledge of their class, strengths, weaknesses, who to target, when to target, situational awareness, and so on and so forth. All we need is for the Bolster system to get some improvements.

 

All it needs is for...

• Sprint to be level 10
  
• Tank AC's to get guard, taunt, and tank stance at 10
  
• The impact of bolster to increase as much as 30%, especially for sub-20s
  
• Level 50s (or even 48+) to bolster down and require blues to compensate
  
• Expertise to be capped
  
• An optional 50's only bracket to be introduced that removes Expertise cap and bolster effects
  

 

Every single problem with brackets has been solved, mitigated, negated, or made less negatively impactful by the Bolster system. It's the best PVP system we have seen for a theme-park level-based MMO. Suggest improvements, not downgrades.

 

That's not what I said at all. I don't have to be a twink to do well in WOW bgs. have you played them? I level up a character and travel through the BG system and do well in each one. Never once is there a level 50 stomping me with a range of skills I have no access to and vastly superior gear.

 

there's the occasional "so twinked, with such extreme gear and enchants that it's insane" person who will kick your butt, but it's not that common really. A bg usually has zero to one or two of these people. Most people in BGs who BG a lot are just using gear you can get by BGing a lot. The main difference between this and a twink would be expensive item enchantments -- And contrary to what you may have heard, this isn't that prevalent. If you can imagine it, the low level BGs in WOW are generally fair and fun. You start low and are an underdog, then you hit the upper range and you're a big dog. You can travel through the whole game this way, and indeed I have. Many times.

 

And if you play the bgs regularly, by the time you're in the upper range of each one, your gear will be enough that you can regularly be the TOP in the field. you can dominate.

 

WOW: be the underdog in the lower range of a BG, then gain a few levels and be one of the big dogs.

 

SWT: be the underdog always, every time, your entire life until you hit 50.

 

This is poisonous to the long term game, especially when you consider alts. Part of the fun of playing WOW and rolling alts and checking out new classes is to participate in the BGs. if low level BGs aren't fun or fair, or at least somewhat fun and fair -- it poisons one of the core pillars of an MMORPG's longevity.

Edited January 2, 2012 by twotimingpete

[Laserstrike]

The system looks within your level range first, if it cant fill the group within a reasonable amount of time (I dont know the exact time) it goes up a set amount of levels.

if it still cant fill the group within a new set time, it will go up again.

 

It will keep doing this until it fills the group.

 

THEN, it will look at the stats you have based on your gear, and boost that up to level 50 equivalent.

 

THEN it bolsters your level stats.

 

Basicly, its a bracket - gear - bolster system.

 

Well, it sure isn't working, as MANY 50s have attested to. They want an adult challenge. It's the teenagers (in mind or body) that want to gank lowbies for 10 hours a day and feel "powerful".

Edited January 2, 2012 by Laserstrike

[Dannicus]

That's not what I said at all. I don't have to be a twink to do well in WOW bgs. have you played them? I level up a character and travel through the BG system and do well in each one. Never once is there a level 50 stomping me with a range of skills I have no access to and vastly superior gear.

 

there's the occasional "so twinked, with such extreme gear and enchants that it's insane" person who you can't go near, but that's really not that common. most bgs will have 0 to 1 or 2 of those people. generally. from the perspective of a level 14 in the SWT warzones, *everyone* is that person.

 

And if you play the bgs regularly, by the time you're in the upper range of each one, your gear will be enough that you can regularly be the TOP in the field. you can dominate.

 

WOW: be the underdog in the lower range of a BG, then grow up and be the big dog.

 

SWT: be the underdog always, every time, your entire life until you hit 50.

 

This is poisonous to the long term game, especially when you consider alts. Part of the fun of playing WOW and rolling alts and checking out new classes is to participate in the BGs. if low level BGs aren't fun or fair, or at least somewhat fun and fair -- it poisons one of the core pillars of an MMORPG's longevity.

 

Your argument is deeply flawed. It's not just WoW I can compare it to, either, it's also Rift. Going into the next Valor rank by time I quit that game and its inept class balance was easily as comparable to a level 10 to a 50 in expertise gear in SW:TOR. The difference is, by time you're level 20 in SW:TOR, you've earned some of your most staple skills, so you are now a threat to anyone if you know how to play. At level 21, I'm still in the same boat, I still have value and am a threat even to that level 50. At level 21 in Rift and WoW, I go back to where I started, the bottom of the barrel and forced to slog through 7 or 8 levels just to stop sucking because of the drastic gear differences.

 

Seriously, arguing solely over the "low level VS high level" issue, it exists in both forms. Brackets, however, rollercoaster you. You start feeling strong and the moment you feel really good you've become fodder because of the gear and level disparities in the next bracket. With a Bolstered system, you can still be effective, even against a 40+ as a lowlie teen. All you will feel is consistent growth and power in your character because each level provides more abilities and talents. Your strategy grows with your character, as does your knowledge. In a bracket, you suddenly need to change your tactics to be of any value when you level out of your current. Without warning, you've become fodder, you've become worthless, because no amount of skill is going to be able to handle anyone who is maxing out the bracket due to the drastic gear and level differences.

 

A level 10 against a level 50 in PVP gear, yeah, it's clear who should win. Thing is, brackets have the same problem across all bracket ranges. In SW:TOR, by time you hit early to mid 20s, not only have you acquired many of your most staple skills, earned some defense cooldowns and CC, and have some good talents backing you up, you are now a danger. You can reasonably face against any 40+ enemy exceping maybe someone skilled or in a lot of PVP gear. And it'll only get better.

 

Improve Bolster first before you consider brackets because it's a better system in every single way. All we need is an optional 50s bracket insofar as those things are concerned and we'll be fine.

[Sildrin]

I can only hope it comes in before I grow tired of the game.

[Corwingeorge]

i dont remember creature handlers bein that good

[Vortun]

People in this thread seems to think that either you have bolster, or you have brackets.

 

There's absolutely no reason to not have both. A bracket range of maybe 10 levels, and the bolster system, and you're set. It will be more fun, more balanced, less dependant on level, more dependant on skill. Twinks won't exist because you do get XP from pvp, it's not much, but it's too much for people to twink characters, as they'll only stay 19 or whatever for a day or so.

 

I agree with the OP, this is common sense. You don't let a level 10 fight a level 50, or a 49. Yes, a good level 10 can take down a horrible level 49, but in 9 cases out of 10, the 49 will win, because he has access to all his skills, while the level 10 has a buff and some starter stuff. This can be seen all the time if you pvp a bit. It's not uncommon to see a keyboardturning, backpeddling, likely clicking 40 something completely obliterate a lowbie who plays fine, just because he has more buttons to press.

 

Within a week or two when the vast majority of the community are in their late 40s/50, this problem will be even more dangerous to the time this game has to live, because nobody will want to pvp as a lowlevel since they just get crushed by highlevels, thus eliminating the entire reason we have a bracketless system in the first place; to lower quetimes, because nobody in their right mind will que before their late 30s anyway.

[Akunk]

In every single thread... It's all WoW, WoW and WoW.

[RamataKahn]

Feel free to look at any other MMOs level bracketed PvP and you'll see the end result is no different.

 

No it isn't.

[mufutiz]

The fact that there's a debate around the lack of bracketing is mind numbing. This is common sense. For as much expertise and time it takes to craft a massive game like this, lacking common sense to the extent that they'll allow new level 12s to make an attempt at a warzone and be instantly converged on by level 40s and 50s is astounding.

 

It reminds me of some of the things I saw in Star Wars Galaxy back when it first came out. I was a seasoned MMORPGer at the time, having spent a great deal of time pvping in Dark Age of Camelot.

 

People in Beta were training in creature handling and taming multiple rancors, which, individually, could kill any player. I thought this was some kind of beta oversight that would never make it live, and it did. The thought that a company was able to make a complex game but lack common sense to that level made my jaw drop. I just couldn't believe it. Everyone in port was running around with two mountainous beasts following them.

 

Brackets in WOW always seemed like common sense to me. It was just assumed. "Oh, level 15s can queue for battlegrounds too?" It was just assumed that they'd be against people in their own level range because that was common sense. You never even considered the possiblity that you'd be fighting level 50s.

 

It speaks to not just bad judgement by bioware that level 12s are queueing against level 50s, but it speaks to sort of a perversion of common sense, that's now pervading the playerbase. The fact that this is even a discussion is amazing to this old hound, but I suspect I'm not alone.

 

We all know that brackets will go in sooner or later. It's a fact. Why? Because, as a rational human being, I recognize it as common sense. Whether the developers and community see it now is irrelevant. Brackets will be coming and one day people will look back at this and facepalm.

 

So just do it sooner rather than later to keep the embarrassment (and damage to the culture of PVP in this game) to a minimum.

 

I quote this entire post for I am quoting the truth.

 

I was under the impression there was kind of a layered invite system where the game would try to match you with people roughly your own level for about 5-10 minutes max, if that did not work it would just throw you into a FFA match.

 

And now we have FFA PvP period...

The only thing more ridiculous than the fact this is happening in the live retail version of the game is reading voices supporting this horridness.

[RJChief]

So the game is, what... officially 12 days past launch? Yes, those who preordered had a week advantage to grush through the leveling (in part to getting the story in beta, and spacebaring through the cut scenes). There still are simply not enough level 50's in the game! I laugh at those who cancelled their subscriptions because a handful - yes, only a relative handful - out leveled them.

 

Assuming a bracket system though, there WOULD NOT be any "twinks" like WoW. The XP bonus from completing WZ's would effectively push twinks into the next bracket.

 

Could the pvp system be tweaked a bit? of course, everything can... but give this game a fighting chance! (no pun intended)

 

swtor > any mmo currently out there.... I refuse to live in the past, in the good ol' days of only felucia ultima online