The great Debate.

[Daeson]

The great debate thread.

 

I'd like to keep this one organized,to the point ,and possibly break though ideas..I can hope.

 

 

So, the biggest debate I've seen is what stats after aim, is it stacking hit, do we have an amount of hit to aim for, ignore crit because its to spiky. The point ,every one has thrown out their idea of whats the best dps increase because of how it *feels* Well I'd like this thread to come down to those people to figured out ,or atleast wrap our collective minds around ideas before the sims and mods come out, lets get a jump on it.

 

So, lets start with some given facts.

 

We use a high profile weapon with a large spread, which history tells us, the larger the spread of the weapon, the better the crit range.

 

We regenerate our ammo over time, forcing management , but, we have a talent that allows us to regen ammo when we crit.

 

Cell charger allows one crit to ammo per 3 seconds.

 

With out any alacrity, that means every other Grav round if both crit, will regen, if we weave a hammer between each one, that's an addition chance at regen,plus the time not spent tactfully using ammo.

 

So, using above said,we currently would have

 

AIM>Crit

 

So if thats a given, that naturally

 

Aim>Crit>Surge>X>Y

 

So, x and y, all we have left is alracity and power.

At the start, we can get 4% +5% proc, so thats a steady 9% at all times, thats around a .2-.4 regen on most abilities.

 

Power scales flat, +10 power is +10 damage.

 

So whats a better return between the two?

 

At this time, I don't have a clear Idea, I stacked power for awhile, and it felt smooth, when I stacked alacrity, i noticed I had to watch my ammo much more closely, but I seemed to bring down mobs much faster , on top of that, popping my 200+ alacrity trinket relic on boss fights, the amount of time it took to drop a certain amount of HP from the boss seemed drastically faster, with a passive 12% with proc up, and that trinket, it felt very much like popping Heroism.

 

If you disagree,tell me why. I am excluding hit right now, because theres no way was far as I know to determine how much we need.

 

 

Who am I, Ex-main tank of two different top EQ2 guild, officer and melee lead of a top 300 world wow guild, these are my thoughts, feelings and opinions, and I hope we can come together to create a solid foundation for our fellow players to look at and understand how they work.

[Daeson]

Reserved for updates.

 

To do list.

1. Clean up post,place idea's in a more direct order.

2. Do math. IE. how much per point of crit is 1% ect ect.

3.Figure out required hit rates against raid mobs.

4. Come to a conclusion on stat priority.

 

 

What I'm looking for from fellow posters, is what is your experience with gearing, what are you leaning to,what,feels, better.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Daeson

[DarkGreenGames]

I can't stand alacrity as a dps trooper because of ammo. I would rather do slower big hits and keep my ammo than spamming quick weaker shots.

[Dashall]

Right now, simply on intuition, I'm going Aim>Accuracy to 105>Crit>Surge>more accuracy

 

Then of course there is Expertise for PvP which I favor above all the rest simply because at 47 it's still scarce. This is as a Gunnery Commando.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Dashall

[Daeson]

good point, i need to go back and make that this is about pve.

 

But for accuracy, why 105% does it seem right, did some one tell you, why that number, and that's the point of this thread.

[Dashall]

Yeah I arrived at 105 simply because I assume you'll want 100, and players typically have a minimum of 5% defense just going by my own character. No math to back it up yet.

[Delurian]

I do not rcall where but I believe on Torhead I read that for raiding boses have around 5% more defense rating per level above 50. So if the boss is a 53 u should Need 115% accuracy as a mininmum to hit 100% of the time according to the thread, again not sure I his is correct please fell free to confirm or deny, this is just to ai he discussion. Edited January 2, 2012 by Delurian

[Daeson]

ah, see, that's great, that's the sort of info we need, if you can ever find where you saw that please post it up.

[PaxFelix]

Please forgive me if I've missed something.

 

What is your rationale for Crit>Surge. Not doubting it, just curious.

[mydknightcloud]

I would assume Crit>surge due to the fact that without a healthy crit rating surge is worthless, as it depends on a high crit chance, though I'm not sure what other damage types it may boost.

[PaxFelix]

I would assume Crit>surge due to the fact that without a healthy crit rating surge is worthless, as it depends on a high crit chance, though I'm not sure what other damage types it may boost.

 

D'oh. Right. Had a mini-stroke, forgetting that surge is indeed the strength of the crit, so you have first to have a chance of a crit for the strength to matter.

 

My apologies.

 

[Atamasama]

The other reason why crit is preferred, is that there are certain abilities that kick in when you get a crit. For example, First Responder kicks in when you crit, and isn't improved by Surge in any way.

[Daeson]

yup, that's it exactly, crit provides us procs, ammo, and more, its just a wonderful stat.

 

So, if we have lots of crit, naturally we'd want those crit as big as we can get.

[ArcAngelxx]

Sooo.... Just so I am clear as a gunnery commando I should be using Crit and Surge and not Power correct. Is that the general concensous?

[LordKivlov]

Pretty much. Unfortunately, our end game gear isn't Crit or surged focuses so you're going to be spending some money and time taking enhancements out of the helmet (48 surge on champ elim) and putting it into others (30k a pop).

 

I personally prefer to stack power for PvE since you'll have at least 30% in decent gear and will be trading off the odd ammo regen for higher damage (since you'll hit roughly 40% if you went for crit instead and deal a few hundred less a hit). Aggro is an issue since a lot of bosses drop at least a portion of your aggro when they punt the tank and chain critting makes it difficult to guage where exactly you are on the aggro threshold.

 

Alacrity should only be used for healing, never for dpsing.

Edited January 4, 2012 by LordKivlov

[Daeson]

While I agree power will even the pulse and makes tanks life better.

 

At the end of the day, its about dps, and dps'ing harder. Which i fully belive will be Crit and surge, I'm at 33% passive right now, in raid gear, even if i have to bastardize everything, i can see getting to the 40% passive mark, with that im at 84% surge passive, see if I keep this trend going I see hitting over 110% surge a reality.

 

Dear dev gods, please give us a combat log we can parse, oh please oh please.

[Airees]

I'm just gonna assume it's pretty much the same as BH. Alacrity is the devil as it messes with your Cell Charger and Curtain of Fire procs. You should have 0 alacrity. After that Power is by far that most potent stat (at least at the current gear levels) while crit allows you to regen more ammo. It's sorta hard to quantify the bonus from crit without a way to perform tests, but I'd say it's pretty safe to say power and crit should be your main focus.

[Theskaboss]

If only someone could do this for vanguards

 

For tank vanguard I bet it'd be something like

 

Tanky:

 

accuracy->Shield rating->shield absorbtion->armor->aim/endurance/deflect/pary->power or something

 

 

accuracy to help hitting the boss

 

Shield rating to help increase shield chance, same reason why Crit rating > surge.

 

Shield absorbtion for more damage reduced per shield proc

 

armor for sustained damage reduction

 

And then we get to the Damage stat, health, and deflect and parry, I'm sure it's parry to some point then health then Dmg, but that's as far as I can go without hard numbers.

 

 

....sorry for derailing the thread, let the commando talk resume XD

[Kokkos]

Never use Alacrity (or however its spelled), it reduce cast time but not GCD, so even if you get faster casts, you cant use them more often. all our attacks are 1.5 cd (due to gcd) except full auto.

 

And even if it speed up GCD, it would be bad. A lot of our talents are "can not be used again for X amount of sec.

Cell charger is 3 sec on the reload, if you haste it you would not get it on possibly every second shot, but every third.

The synnergy on Curtain of Fire would also suffer beacuse of haste.

[NYALAANA]

If only i had the german translations for those words.

[Fuinir]

Never use Alacrity (or however its spelled), it reduce cast time but not GCD, so even if you get faster casts, you cant use them more often. all our attacks are 1.5 cd (due to gcd) except full auto.

 

And even if it speed up GCD, it would be bad. A lot of our talents are "can not be used again for X amount of sec.

Cell charger is 3 sec on the reload, if you haste it you would not get it on possibly every second shot, but every third.

The synnergy on Curtain of Fire would also suffer beacuse of haste.

 

This. Grav Round is 1.5 second cast, HIB and DR are instant, so the only ability that sees a meaningful gain is Full Auto. At the end of it, you would want Power > Alacrity.

[Fight]

We have no way to record our damage without a combat log, this thread is worthless. Thank you for your time though.

 

Who am I, guy from the internet, used to be main tank in a top 35900 wow guild and played EQ2 for 16 minutes (But I am told I was pretty good).

[JLapp]

This. Grav Round is 1.5 second cast, HIB and DR are instant, so the only ability that sees a meaningful gain is Full Auto. At the end of it, you would want Power > Alacrity.

 

It will still impact grav round.

[Daeson]

The hole thread is theoretical,it was state from the start, you might of missed it, but thanks for trying.

[Thourton]

I see a lot of DPS talk in here. Any Combat Medics around?

 

Up 'til lvl 40, I've been stacking Power over Crit Rating. My thought process here was that Crits for Combat Medics don't provide a great proc (First Responder gives +Alacrity, but Alacrity doesn't really help except in crunch moments when I need to spit out heals fast); so they're only real benefit is +100% to the heal, which is good, but is it the best?

 

Power improves my overall healing output, as well as, directly increases my Hammer Shot heal, which I spam all the time, AND that has a good chance to Crit and proc First Responder.

 

So, are heal spikes better than slighter, generally increased healing?

 

I've been leaning toward Power, but after running some of the higher Flashpoints (like The Jedi Prisoner), I've noticed a need for bigger spike heals on boss fights. I think I'm slowly moving to the Crit camp.

 

Thoughts from other medics?