Tank Spec Straight From Heaven? 34-7-0

[rawlingchamp]

So I have been questing for a few weeks now, not rushing myself and enjoying the game for multiple reasons. One of which being that my brother power leveled to 50 in just under 4 days played (3 days 19 hrs) on his trooper. He has had not much to do due to the fact that most players on our faction are yet to hit 50 on our server (Mandalore The Indomitable, Republic Side), that and the fact that The Empire seemingly out number us 5:1.....

 

Anyways to get to the point. I just hit 50 and here is what i'm planning on speccing for TANKING PvE for now. I played level 10-50 as Guardian Spec so I could get a feel for what talents would be most useful in tanking situations. I feel this is a decent spec for any Guardian to use for tanking. Any comments or suggestions are appreciated.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500fMGcurrkuoZhMM.1

 

Defense Tree

Tier 1

 

- 2/2 Victory Rush

- 3/3 Momentum

- 2/2 Dust Storm

 

Tier 2

 

- 3/3 Guard Stance

- 2/2 Lung

 

Tier 3

 

- 1/1 Warding Call

- 3/3 Pacification

- 3/3 Blade Barricade

 

Tier 4

 

- 2/2 Shield Spec

- 2/2 Command

- 2/2 Courage

 

Tier 5

 

- 2/2 Blade Barrier

- 1/1 Force Clap

- 1/1 Hilt Strike

- 1/1 Stasis Mastery

 

Tier 6

 

- 3/3 Cyclonic Sweeps

 

Tier 7

 

- 1/1 Guard Strike

 

 

 

 

Vigilance Tree

 

Tier 1

 

- 2/2 Improved Sunder

- 3/3 Swelling Winds

 

 

Tier 2

 

- 2/2 Perseverance

Edited January 2, 2012 by rawlingchamp

[Polly_Pocket]

Not getting inner peace is a mistake. The damage reduction and extra time on enure is too good to pass up.

[pure_laced]

There are already a few posts on the same subject. Please do a quick search or scan of the forums and post in the appropriate thread. With that said however, a more optimal tank spec is:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500fMGcubrkzRZhGM.1

 

Accuracy is important for threat generation, armor reduction, etc. Not having points into Inner Peace is screaming for things to hit you because you are more squishy.

[rawlingchamp]

Accuracy is important for threat generation, armor reduction, etc. Not having points into Inner Peace is screaming for things to hit you because you are more squishy.

 

 

Im not involved in 16 man raids yet and have yet to lose agro due to accuracy problems

 

Is anyone else having problems with accuracy? Alothough having over 100% accuarcy would help attacks land that might have other wise been "defended" by the mob... so that is a good point about accuracy. thanks.

Edited January 2, 2012 by rawlingchamp

[Pwentt]

I'd drop force clap and stasis mastery for inner peace. Alternatively force clap and 1 point in shield specialization.

[Drakks]

I dont understand what people think they are getting from the defense tree that isn't matched or better from Vig, the way the are currently.

 

11 points in Defense, get yourself a nice second defensive cooldown. Most everything else is crap.

[Idockdudes]

I dont understand what people think they are getting from the defense tree that isn't matched or better from Vig, the way the are currently.

 

11 points in Defense, get yourself a nice second defensive cooldown. Most everything else is crap.

 

14 in Def 27 in Vig.

[Eugee]

I dont understand what people think they are getting from the defense tree that isn't matched or better from Vig, the way the are currently.

 

11 points in Defense, get yourself a nice second defensive cooldown. Most everything else is crap.

 

Defense:

• 5% avoidance debuff
  
• 6% melee/range defense
  
• 6% melee/range defense buff
  
• 40% damage reduction cooldown
  
• 4% shield chance boost
  
• high threat/4 stun
  
• +stun to Force Leap
  
• -channel to Force Stasis (stun = dmg reduction)
  
• +absorption to Force Storm
  
• +4% elemental/internal damage reduction
  

 

Vigilance

• +20% dmg reduction to Force Leap (4s)
  
• +4% endurance (and Guardian Leap lowers YOUR AGGRO too now)
  
• +4% damage reduction
  

 

To answer your question: Defense.

[Idockdudes]

Defense:

• 5% avoidance debuff
  
• 6% melee/range defense
  
• 6% melee/range defense buff
  
• 40% damage reduction cooldown
  
• 4% shield chance boost
  
• high threat/4 stun
  
• +stun to Force Leap
  
• -channel to Force Stasis (stun = dmg reduction)
  
• +absorption to Force Storm
  
• +4% elemental/internal damage reduction
  

 

Vigilance

• +20% dmg reduction to Force Leap (4s)
  
• +4% endurance (and Guardian Leap lowers YOUR AGGRO too now)
  
• +4% damage reduction
  

 

To answer your question: Defense.

 

There are some choices to be made, but as far as pure survivability you get everything but the 4% shield boost, the blade storm bubble and the 4% ele/internal damage reduction. You gain what you have listed for Vig, but you forgot to add that guardian leap reduces the damage you take by 20% in addition to lowering your agro.

 

You trade 3 survivability talents in Def for 3 superior survivability talents in Vig. Now I havent done enough PvE to know if its actually viable to reduce your own threat and how much up time you can keep on the 20% damage reductions from force/guardian leaps. In a vacuum without any of that mattering a Vig Hybrid has more survivability.

 

In PvP the Vig hybrid is the clear winner for survivability, but there are other reasons to still consider going deeper in to Def.

[pure_laced]

Except we aren't talking about PvP in this thread. Additionally why would you want to drop threat as a tank in a PvE encounter? I would also venture to say that the Protector talent will be changed in the future and move that endurance bonus over to the defensive side but possibly keep the Guardian Leap portion on Vig.

 

From a class/spec balance issue, the Dev team has a little bit to learn still.

[Drakks]

Defense:

• 5% avoidance debuff
  
• 6% melee/range defense
  
• 6% melee/range defense buff
  
• 40% damage reduction cooldown
  
• 4% shield chance boost
  
• high threat/4 stun
  
• +stun to Force Leap
  
• -channel to Force Stasis (stun = dmg reduction)
  
• +absorption to Force Storm
  
• +4% elemental/internal damage reduction
  

 

Vigilance

• +20% dmg reduction to Force Leap (4s)
  
• +4% endurance (and Guardian Leap lowers YOUR AGGRO too now)
  
• +4% damage reduction
  

 

To answer your question: Defense.

 

The ONLY thing of value you're getting from shield is 6% (OF YOUR CURRENT DEFENSE) on riposte. Keep in mind, this is not +6%, it's 6% of value. Which is questionable, at best. And the bubble from blade storm, which is currently not providing enough value to warrant the skill point to get there.

 

From vig:

 

- 20% flat mitigation on force leap - bar none, best bang for the buck skill from any tree.

- 20% flat mitigation for you on guardian leap.

- An attack that sets up crit on a 9 second CD (overhand slash), which is vastly better threat than a 4 second stun on a 1 min CD.

- 3% accuracy

- 4% all-damage mitigation

- 15 seconds off the Awe cooldown

- 4% endurance

- Free force sweep for added AE control

 

So, you can have the above.. or get 6% of your defense on riposte and blade barrier. You will get much better threat generation, better AE, higher end, and better burst migitation from Vig (with 11 to 14 in Shield which gives you MOST of what you listed as the advantages from the shield tree - 6% def in Soresu, 40% mitigation CD, lower cost riposte and potentially the riposte buff if you take it).

 

This is my only real beef with the class currently, in that the shield tree is severely lacking.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Drakks

[angrydurf]

Guardian strike Vs. Overhead Strike

GS DPS 166

OS DPS 227.333

 

Overhead strike is straight up better. 5 stacks of sunder are easy to maintain with or without GS numbers assume a 5 stack of Sunder.

 

Additionally with Vigilance 3 of 3

Vig BS DPS: 263.722

Def BS DPS: 197.791 + Shield (No details on shield strength)

 

Assuming it is supposed to be as strong as that granted for Vanguards and Shadows is that shield worth ~66 dps of threat (Boosted by soresu form) If it manages to block say a full heals worth of damage it would be a break even point IMHO.

 

Hilt strike numbers: DPS - 20.688 basically negligible. (assumes 3/3 Pacification

 

High threat mod to make it an equivalent threat mod to OS would be ~10 TIMES mod or 1000% no numbers on what the mod is but that seems like it's pretty unlikely. It could also be instead a flat threat bump on use in which case it's lack of gear dependance makes it even weaker for endgame use.

 

To make hilt strike plus GS competitive with OS the mod on HS would need to be 300% that to make a 31 point and a 21 point skill equivalent in threat generation to a 21 point skill. Even if in a pure Threat per second number they are equivalent the very long CD on HS makes it unlikely you'll see full benefit on short fights or fights VS. many enemies. as that threat can only be applied to one enemy every 60 seconds. All in all HS is pretty much a waste of a skill point even in a full def build. It does have a 4 sec stun. That is basically a PvP concern or mitigation cutting incoming damage for 4 seconds out of 60. Still pretty much useless PvE.

 

If you learn to jump around on CD the Unremitting/Protector bonus is more than enough to make up for blade barricade/Shield spec for mitigation but this does require you to quickly switch targets and bounce around the battle. Not a bad skill to have in general anyway.

 

Effluence for 1 point does as much for force sweep as Courage does for BS and Force sweep for 3 pts assuming that you parry/deflect/evade once per 5 seconds on average. though even fully speced it has a 50% fail rate so you could with bad luck lose your courage stack effluence also doesn't take a minimum of 30 seconds to warm up.

 

Commanding awe 4% on all damage vs Inner peace 4% off elemental/internal CA is better. CA cuts 15 seconds off Awe CD good vs non droid regular and some strong. IP increases Enure duration by 5 seconds. Enure really only is going to help finish a fight. the 5 seconds are not enough that in a PvE group situation your party won't be able to finish off the boss without you anyway. Might be worthwhile for PvP but nothing else in the tree is and it's way up there.

 

Cyclonic sweeps increases your focus gain from soresu form. This is actually better than zen strike especially if you feel focus starved regularly. Zen strike does give the option of doing more DPS and thus threat though if you are not feeling focus starved regularly. I'd rather have Cyclonic Sweeps, but not enough to make up for all the other benefits that you get in vig.

 

Since we're not capping out vig those you can ignore Zen strike grab CA and dump 14 pts into def to get up to warding call and blade barricade. Pretty much the highest talents in def spec that are worthwhile. or you can if you prefer ditch Commanding Awe and get up to shield spec and fully skill up Momentum for free Blade Storms.

 

The high end of Def spec just doesn't compare to the mid range of Vigilance for threat or survivability in group tanking situations as it stands right now. For a surrvivable build that will generate the best threat without dropping any good survival skills I would go with http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500fMG0u0MZhGr0rhzzM.1 or http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500dMG0uZhGr0rhzdMM.1

 

Depending on if you want Momentum or not mostly. 4% flat reduction is better than 4% shield chance but the free blade storm on force leap (which you will be using alot) is better than burning purpose. If you like momentum you can likely afford to drop Commanding Awe on survivability in favor of shield spec.

[Taliesyn]

Drakks, you're incorrect on at least one count:

 

After talenting Riposte to give you +6% to your defense after use, all you have to do is open your character sheet to see that your Defense % has gone up by 6. If you had a 20% defense chance, you now have 26% chance.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Taliesyn

[FtenEQ]

Drakks, you're incorrect on at least one count:

 

After talenting Riposte to give you +6% to your defense after use, all you have to do is open your character sheet to see that your Defense % has gone up by 6. If you had a 20% defense chance, you now have 26% chance.

 

So you're saying it's a flat increase to 6% defense and not the current value?

 

That's actually good to know and thanks for clearing that up.

 

However I still feel as if Angrydurf is correct in the above post in regards to the two talent trees.

 

There are some vigilance talents that just scream Defense tree and really, there's no damn reason not to spec this way. It's just the smart thing to do with our talents at the moment. You're actually gimping yourself if you spec straight up Defense all the way compared to this in regards to threat and survivability.

 

The thought of using Protector in practice is hard to imagine at first, but anyone who has ever played a prot warrior can really envision the tact needed, which you get used to very quickly.

Edited January 3, 2012 by FtenEQ

[Idockdudes]

Except we aren't talking about PvP in this thread. Additionally why would you want to drop threat as a tank in a PvE encounter? I would also venture to say that the Protector talent will be changed in the future and move that endurance bonus over to the defensive side but possibly keep the Guardian Leap portion on Vig.

 

From a class/spec balance issue, the Dev team has a little bit to learn still.

 

I dont think the reduced threat portion of that talent is really an issue. I have yet to lose agro after because I used it. You should really only be losing agro against 2 people anyway. So you just use it on your highest threat person in group, or if you have that target guarded maybe its better to hit your second highest threat group member.

 

If they really wanted people to spec deeper in def they could just put more high tier talents that increase survivability. Maybe put warding call as the top tier ability.

[pure_laced]

I tried both specs out tonight with the same group, same 50 flashpoints. Vigilance first, followed by the Defense. In Vig I was bouncing like a champ with leap as it came off cd, etc. In the end, our healer stated the 2nd time through was much easier to heal through both trash and the boss fights.

 

There might be some things we are missing, but I have seen firsthand the difference in tanking and I still prefer the defense spec over Vig. I did like my extra Endurance though from the Vig tree.

 

It could also be dependant upon secondary stats as well. I have a solid shield rating and absorption stats in addition to defense, so shield procs would benefit me more. Kind of like DK w/ high Mastery in Wow.

[Polly_Pocket]

I've tried both specs, have main tanked every raid encounter and most of the non-bugged hardmodes. Defense is the way to go. You take less damage and generate more threat with hilt strike in your pocket. It's really that simple. Edited January 3, 2012 by Polly_Pocket

[Drakks]

Drakks, you're incorrect on at least one count:

 

After talenting Riposte to give you +6% to your defense after use, all you have to do is open your character sheet to see that your Defense % has gone up by 6. If you had a 20% defense chance, you now have 26% chance.

 

If this changed, that's good though -- 14/27 would be my tank build of choice.

[Drakks]

I tried both specs out tonight with the same group, same 50 flashpoints. Vigilance first, followed by the Defense. In Vig I was bouncing like a champ with leap as it came off cd, etc. In the end, our healer stated the 2nd time through was much easier to heal through both trash and the boss fights.

 

There might be some things we are missing, but I have seen firsthand the difference in tanking and I still prefer the defense spec over Vig. I did like my extra Endurance though from the Vig tree.

 

It could also be dependant upon secondary stats as well. I have a solid shield rating and absorption stats in addition to defense, so shield procs would benefit me more. Kind of like DK w/ high Mastery in Wow.

 

I've tanked hard modes with vig and had no problems. I'm going to guess player comfort has something to do with it.

 

If you look at the trees, there is nothing purely defensive that is going to mitigate damage after the first 14 points, up until blade barrier. So the real difference is a few hundred point ablative shield, that may or may not be hugely impacting. You get a free one on initial leap, and I can't imagine it offering much more than unremitting given the compariable CDs.

[Thurinor]

Guardian strike Vs. Overhead Strike

GS DPS 166

OS DPS 227.333

 

Overhead strike is straight up better. 5 stacks of sunder are easy to maintain with or without GS numbers assume a 5 stack of Sunder.

 

Additionally with Vigilance 3 of 3

Vig BS DPS: 263.722

Def BS DPS: 197.791 + Shield (No details on shield strength)

 

Assuming it is supposed to be as strong as that granted for Vanguards and Shadows is that shield worth ~66 dps of threat (Boosted by soresu form) If it manages to block say a full heals worth of damage it would be a break even point IMHO.

 

Hilt strike numbers: DPS - 20.688 basically negligible. (assumes 3/3 Pacification

 

High threat mod to make it an equivalent threat mod to OS would be ~10 TIMES mod or 1000% no numbers on what the mod is but that seems like it's pretty unlikely. It could also be instead a flat threat bump on use in which case it's lack of gear dependance makes it even weaker for endgame use.

 

To make hilt strike plus GS competitive with OS the mod on HS would need to be 300% that to make a 31 point and a 21 point skill equivalent in threat generation to a 21 point skill. Even if in a pure Threat per second number they are equivalent the very long CD on HS makes it unlikely you'll see full benefit on short fights or fights VS. many enemies. as that threat can only be applied to one enemy every 60 seconds. All in all HS is pretty much a waste of a skill point even in a full def build. It does have a 4 sec stun. That is basically a PvP concern or mitigation cutting incoming damage for 4 seconds out of 60. Still pretty much useless PvE.

 

If you learn to jump around on CD the Unremitting/Protector bonus is more than enough to make up for blade barricade/Shield spec for mitigation but this does require you to quickly switch targets and bounce around the battle. Not a bad skill to have in general anyway.

 

Effluence for 1 point does as much for force sweep as Courage does for BS and Force sweep for 3 pts assuming that you parry/deflect/evade once per 5 seconds on average. though even fully speced it has a 50% fail rate so you could with bad luck lose your courage stack effluence also doesn't take a minimum of 30 seconds to warm up.

 

Commanding awe 4% on all damage vs Inner peace 4% off elemental/internal CA is better. CA cuts 15 seconds off Awe CD good vs non droid regular and some strong. IP increases Enure duration by 5 seconds. Enure really only is going to help finish a fight. the 5 seconds are not enough that in a PvE group situation your party won't be able to finish off the boss without you anyway. Might be worthwhile for PvP but nothing else in the tree is and it's way up there.

 

Cyclonic sweeps increases your focus gain from soresu form. This is actually better than zen strike especially if you feel focus starved regularly. Zen strike does give the option of doing more DPS and thus threat though if you are not feeling focus starved regularly. I'd rather have Cyclonic Sweeps, but not enough to make up for all the other benefits that you get in vig.

 

Since we're not capping out vig those you can ignore Zen strike grab CA and dump 14 pts into def to get up to warding call and blade barricade. Pretty much the highest talents in def spec that are worthwhile. or you can if you prefer ditch Commanding Awe and get up to shield spec and fully skill up Momentum for free Blade Storms.

 

The high end of Def spec just doesn't compare to the mid range of Vigilance for threat or survivability in group tanking situations as it stands right now. For a surrvivable build that will generate the best threat without dropping any good survival skills I would go with http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500fMG0u0MZhGr0rhzzM.1 or http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500dMG0uZhGr0rhzdMM.1

 

Depending on if you want Momentum or not mostly. 4% flat reduction is better than 4% shield chance but the free blade storm on force leap (which you will be using alot) is better than burning purpose. If you like momentum you can likely afford to drop Commanding Awe on survivability in favor of shield spec.

 

Kudos for this post.

 

It gave me some food for thought. I was all for a full 31 into Vigilance and thought bunging the rest into Defence would let me off tank a little.

 

I may have to review my plans now.

[Sixball]

Makes me glad my JG is going DPS...

 

Willl tank if/when we get 1) Fixes to JG trees and 2) dual-specs