I don't know why people are saying this game is catered for "Fresh 50's" and/or "Casuals". - Does this qualify them to play stupid? - Does this qualify them to screw around in a WZ and not asking how to play the WZ properly? - Does this qualify them to just let them do whatever they want cause their "Casual" or "Fresh 50"? Seriously if that is the case why bother making WZ with objectives or PvE with anything except beat each other up because MMO's are about pressing buttons and watching each other die and stuff.

Love how people hate something because its just "awful". Please tell me more!

I play both Sorc and Operative: There are LOTS of plusses playing an Operative for PvP over Sorc any day of the week. The only thing Sorc has advantage is the bubble stun. If you want to talk about energy efficiency, Operatives are OP for that: - They got a proc energy restore boost that helps greatly. - They got the OMGWTFBBQ restore boost that can get full energy quickly. - They EVEN got a slow way to restore ENERGY without sacrificing HP. Now what does the Sorc has for restoring their force: - Consumption, which gets back about 5 to 10% force back with a sacrifice to HP (which is slightly noticeable). But there is a downside to that because the normal way to restore Force is to do nothing but when you use consumption it lessons the number of force restored per tick. Therefore nerfing this will **** up the Force efficiency for this class for heals (DPS doesnt use consumption). Not sure for troopers/mercs for heals, but they got multiple tools to help them out too I hear.

I'll tell you why I premade whenever I can. Its simple, but you people whining about premades ARE the SOLE reason why we premade. Some PuGs are terrible. When I mean terrible, they dont know how to DPS, they dont do objectives, they clown around in it and whine about how OP the other faction is. ================================================= So here are the suggestions brought out: - Premade fight premade only: Works if both sides want to fight and they do. But the problem is when one premade that has to go they're forced to PuG 5 people, 1 extra PuG makes it from fun to butt hurt experience. The other problem is the ABUSERS willing to abuse this system any way they can so that theyr'e always together. Sure you can try to force queue solo as a means to have random groups each time but you cant guarantee this always and this can lead to queue delays. When a single premade is not getting queues pop up often they will abuse this just so they can play, regardless of win and lose. - Match making system: This can work, but there needs a hidden rating system to do this, so the matchmaking system works, also needs to consider premades because each individual will have a different rating system than the other. The suggestion was gear, which can easily be abused. Valor is stupid because alts can bring a level 50 guy in valor 20 with war hero gear. - Queue Solo Only: This is a joke, so now we're forced to NOT play together as a team, this is what the terribads who cant find a group to premade want. If you say otherwise dont even reply to this cause your just wasting space. ========================================================= The REAL way this is going to work really is which you can argue all day long till the cows come home: Find like minded people and join them as a premade: You have a higher chance of winning, but doesnt guarantee winning, but at least you know at least 3 others arent idiots and know what they're doing so you tend to trust them and be able to contribute to PvP in a concentrated effort. But the REAL issue why puggers are arguing over premaders is simply. They get roflstomped. As someone suggested if you had 7 good pugs fighting a ****** premade, the results are surprisingly the same. So I leave all you whiners a real question: What do you want out of PvP? What is "fair" to you? Why is winning all that important to you? EDIT: Oh and for about being roflstomped, if I do get it then I just ride the wave and get the comms, its quick, and I can get to another WZ quickly, premades sometimes have a slower time to get queues than PuG as well. Just saying.

Err its both ways Asuna, main problem on both sides is bads, they never queue up to face each other. If they did it'd be a pointless DM zerg fest with epeen stroking. I remember 1 game where this happened on Void Star because people werent looking to cap the door they were looking to DPS the other bads. This was sorta fun till both sides ended with the highest damage being 200k....... I was a healer and I was too tired to try to cap door because nobody was helping me to cap *********** door. I did about 100k damage as healer with 300k heals, and there was a 4 healers on the other team so their DPS was **** too and their heals was about 200k roughly each. To end it all I think about 10 ppl died but was the dumbest boring gay *** match I ever joined, oh we won because I think we killed more or something by 2. If people think this is fun they should probably whack a dummy....

@DoomsDayComes: Very good suggestions on playing your sniper, whether you win or not you seem to understand tactics. That's what I care about. I don't care if we get pwned by people just want people to do the best the can do. @NoFishing: I'm sorry that you were expecting to 1v1 someone and win. Like yea ok so you were defending and dying, if you make a call before you die and use CC to delay them then good on you. If you decided to fight and not make call and get 2 shotted, who's fault is that? Dont think Recruit Gear = terrible = dont try then if thats the case dont PvP. Cause thats the wrong attitude to begin with. I had a worser time than most of you lot cause when I was a level 20 sith sorc healer, I had to go against the really OP Trooper back in the 1.2 day where their Grav Shell could hit hard, and was worser with More Troopers shooting at you. Did it suck? yea. Was it painful? Hell yea. What did I do about it? Learn to LOS, interrupt, CC and try to delay them from firing that grav shell spam forcing him to come after me or not to fight me. As for Deserters let them leave, because if they suck they leave, the good players stick around and fight hard. But I guess you learnt that Deserting is the best way to farm comms amirite? I dont admit being a great PvPer but I dont just sit there whinge about gear and cry a river. @pixieish: As for your sarcasm all I see on this thread is Bioware to do something. But this has turned the damn game into a RageSmashlol game. When you nerf that you know it'd be the rise of snipers, what nerf them too? What about Assassins? Nerf them too. OMG everyone is OP nerf them all. Hey why you are all at it, why dont you tell them gear is OP so that purple gear is like wearing white gear with no + bonuses. Hey let's go further, why dont we all become 1 class with 1 button which is auto-attack and see which mutha trucker kicks muther trucking ***!!! @CommanderKeeva: If you get a Premade fine, if I get my *** kicked repeatedly fine. More power to you. If you can get a 24/7 premade then you must be king awesome, cause I sure cant always get my premades, but I do my best PuGGing or Premade. Losing sucks but its part of the damn game. Now yes I agree some ideas are fine I realize commando's are bad but let's face the past of what happened, commando's 1.2 and before were so OP it wasnt funny, I remembered 1 WZ with 8 Troopers ripping apart teams left right and center because they were doing nearly 5+k Grav SPams and there was little to nothing people could do. Having 40 debuffs of Armor penetration on you is like you walking in PvP naked and getting shot by a BFG9000 in your face. That wasnt fun so they nerfed it. Now what I disagree on the nerf was that it simply needed to nerf the armor penetration. But you PvPers whinge so hard that it got a massive nerf. Just like operatives too, they got nerfed a few times, they still hard but they definitely not the OP class as Juggs/Mara's are in or PT's. Hell I'm surprised no Assassin or Snipers are OP (but they can freaking hit hard too). ================================== I dont expect wins, I dont expect everything to be handed to me cause I got full war hero. I expect people giving effort to win. Period, I dont care about how undergeared you are (it sucks I know) but if you show fight, I'll stick by you. Win or lose its fun playing with people that want to win. Premades are in all shapes and sizes, but to blame premades beating you up is like saying Zorn and Toth is OP nerf them because they kick my groups *** in HM EC. So let's make everything fair. But WZ when the hell is it fair? I mean i get damage taken 600k average against premades, should I get a buff for being whacked so hard? Sheesh.

You know what is sad on this thread. The people that are whining about the premades are REFUSING to improve their game play and/or get a group to play with. You guys want Bioware to give fairer matchmaking somehow with all your suggestions can easily be abused by people who want to abuse the system. I love it how people in recruit "give up" against a war hero because the gear ratio is too much. The funniest part of this whole deal is that I have seen recruit gear ppl tear it up in PvP by proper rotation, tactics and improving their current gear recruit with augments (I have seen Recruit Assassins and Juggs doing 300k in a PvP match and ripping apart War Hero Healers left right and center). You guys can complain all you want, you can grab Bioware to fix your crappiness but at the end you will STILL complain. You guys while STILL whine and ask for nerfs, or buffs or some stupid ****. Next thing you want Bioware to give you is an atomic bomb so that if you die everyone dies around you to make you feel better......

Yeap whoopsie my bad.

There is Cookies and Kreame that is Singaporean based, but they're Empire, you need to speak to Joot or Pines in game for more details or you can track down his Forum name .

LOL HEY Eblis YOU ARE HACKING AGAIN BRO! I WANT TO KNOW YOUR AWESOME SAUCE HACKS!!!!!!!!

Hey Offtopic, Hey Trumpet who are you, some people claim you are Ardwen, is that you .

Bumped for update!!!!

Yea its cool, was worth a shot. We mainly need 2 more mainly for Saturday night 7pm PST. We can fill whatever role as needed, just need 2 more bodies (that are really geared)...

Darn, was going to consider us as we <The Casual Raiders> run on Friday/Saturdays 7pm PST and we could have worked something out. (I come from Australia so its 2pm AEST for me Saturday and Sunday), but we raid for 3-4 hours so by then I go out drinking with friends sometimes. And we're 5/5 HM TFB too since we do it in like 2 hours or less. BTW if you are looking for those sorts of healers you going to find it tough to find them cause their mostly on guild. Even I only have about 750+ heals, I could get 780 roughly getting more campaign but I'm not too inclined to worry about getting that geared as Healing isnt the issue for our raids its more DPS an issue at the moment for NM EC. To get 836 would be full campaign BIS I would imagine. EDIT: Oh wait my bad I read the damn paragraph wrong.... *facepalm*.

What times do you raid? Just curious.

Sorry Theo, what Doomsday is doing is absoluately fine. They're not queue dodging, they're not farming their fighting each other, and anyone that pops up to fight they will fight. They didnt go oh hey its Guild X, they didnt run from them (from what the posts say), they fought them head on. Thats what RWZ is all about. You can complain about how these pro's are at fault, but if the people are that lazy in the first place to not apply the fortitude of trying then what USE is WZ to them, why even queue up to get your *** smoked, seriously, I mean if you come to WZ you should expect the worst and hope for the best. But when you start blaming something all you going to do is whine and not improve. I could whine a few hundred million things but I get on with the program, premade or no premade i face I will face them as I face anyone else (100% effort and spirit). Maybe others wont but they are the ones ruining SWTOR, people complain too much on forums and not trying. This is not Bioware's fault, they cant fix lazy *** to do stuff if they dont want to. They could force people but then you blame Bioware for being pushy. So yea go ahead and blame DoomsdayComes for what they're doing but they're doing whats intended for RWZ, you're just endorsing people farming comms.

I'm sorry should we dumb down the game so we have auto attack only and 5 hp? Not my fault people want to win, I guess we should stop winners from winning games cause its unfair?

The reason why this is OP is simply how resolve works. Because if you respam the same stun the resolve increases only slightly. Way to fix this is to make resolve as it was previously, when random peeps can be called for CC spamming.

Those that drop until they get a WZ together can spend hours and waste time while I get 4 to 8 wins LOL.

No because I have yet to see it happen all the time on Harbinger, I think it screws up 50% or higher and I find that the premades are forced to fight each other. There is the odd occasion it works but it doesnt happen often. But if it happens 100% or more that is seriously some abuse, beccause fielding a 8 Man RWZ team on a Non Rated WZ is really just silly.

It does happen but its a roll on the die for that to occur, I don't know how often that occurs on your server but on Harbinger it doesnt ALWAYS happen in PvP. But that is just someone abusing and needs to be reported honestly, because thats an abuse of mechanics really.

I get what you are saying Doom in regards to rewards, but the suggestion you made in regards to Matchmaking could work, but there are difficulties with it: - Premades skill level in the group could vary, this is an edge case I know, but if they are too disparate how does this work would it make everyone in the premade an average of those skill levels? That would be problematic if the top skilled players combined with 1 weak player who loses every month to fight average to low average players. - High Skill level players fighting each other could be rare, meaning that a skilled player would be waiting for ages to get PvP going, is this HIS fault for doing so well? - Matchmaking abuse: the worse part is if someone like deliberately loses a match but DPS so damn hard and kill the team farming them for ages then its going to be a problem. The rewards I dont mind, so long as its not giving any advantage for PvP. But then it begs the question do people want a carrot on a stick for participating in WZ?

So satisfaction of being able to beat a premade with a pug isnt good enough? Ok, so any cosmetic rewards and titles isnt bad, but anything more is overkill. Not only that if its a PuG full of the same guild does that mean the same reward too? I'm not sure how this would work properly.

This is what I'm trying to drive at here. The BIGGEST problem is pugs doing random stupid ****, which is equivalent to *********** around in OPS. You think people want to play with people who do stupid ****. This is why we have guilds in the game, this is why we have premades in the game. They exist to eliminate this problem. This whole premise of a thread is about how OP a premade is, but a PuG can put the sword to the Premade if they work as a well oiled team and win. But noooooooooo, its OP nerf premade because they're just to farm pugs. Well no **** they're going to farm pugs because their stupid like sheep. If the sheep pug becomes wolves then that premade is going to have a fight on their hands and can lose, but nooooo. The only real complaint thats valid is the resolve system, and the Bubbles (yes I play a Sith Sorc and think its OP, but the real problem again is the resolve system that people have pointed out, not sure what BW was trying to do, but I guess this was one way to shut down the healers which woulda been nice but the problem there is 95% of DPS cant DPS for **** ).

I'll state this cause we're going round in circles: - None of the solutions really work save for the matchmaking as someone stated: People will find ways to abuse this. - The real issue is you want to have a full solo match: But what happens if there is 4 guild members that pug on the same team? Is that premading? What about fighting the same elite group? Would they be premading too? - So if this one player who out dps's you down and wins like easy and makes WZ looks like chump change, should he be disallowed to participate in PvP cause he is pwning you badly?