If you are seriously implying that a full assault spec Vanguard is in the least bit tanky... then it's a good thing that you had no credibility to lose.

Premades aren't the problem. The problem is the people who buy a game and then think they are entitled to having the game company change every aspect of it that doesn't suit them instead of looking at their issues and figuring out a way to deal with it like an adult.

Oh lord, another one. If you want FPS type gameplay, play an FPS. What you guys are doing is equivalent to trying to get the rules of a team sport changed to suit you because you want to play but you feel that you are entitled to having the game changed so suit you.

He may be complaining, but he has no legitimate points.

Bumping this thread because it's more fun (barely) than the one about Premades being responsible for ruining the game.

It's called The Outlaw's Den.

I may have held it a little past 40%, but that is risky due to stunlock death. You made the right call. Unfortunately, getting raged at by somebody in PvP is an unavoidable consequence of participation. Just shrug it off and move on. If you really are wanting a chuckle, do what I do at times and write the person's name down and then send them one courting gift a day in the mail for a week or so. Barring that, I generally just ignore the fool and proceed to play my game, even if that means coming to the rescue of whatever random was pointing their ire in my direction.

Dear Mr Troll, Just because you call them exploits does not make them so. If a pug tank puts guard on you and uses his taunts and cc to keep you alive, are you going to refuse to heal him and yourself? If you do, then by your definition you are using and condoning exploitive gameplay.

Imagine if any of these players had to go form 60 to 74 or so before they managed to get a full BM set...

I can't imagine facing players dumb enough to fall for this tactic...

I got a laugh out of the OP, and had my suspicions. Now I'm sure he is a Jedi Master Troll.

Hopefully you are trolling here, and don't realistically think that any game in the known universe would survive with this mechanic in place. I wouldn't be totally opposed to equal gear, but without some sort of progression, ANY aspect of an MMO is going to flounder and die. Maybe just cooler graphics for gear as you PvP, or unique mounts, titles, etc. The question you have to ask is, once everyone is in the same gear, what will your solution to class balance be? Give every class the exact same skills?

I just realized that after all this fun debate, I don't think I actually answered the OP's question. It's worse to quit trying early in a match, because it's early in the match. It's worse to quit late in the match, because it screws some poor sap who solo que'd by sucking them into a crappy game.

Go back to your OP, you do indeed say that everyone who falls into your general definition is a bad person. Nothing you have said 'insults' me. I just find it humorous that you aren't willing to have what could be an interesting debate, and are instead driving to see everything in black and white. Certainly this is your perogative however. I didn't say anyone was a 'bad person', that is your previously stated point of view. I am simply making a valid case that it is, in my opinion, not a fair assessment to throw all players into one group or the other just because they don't share your point of view to the letter. It would be like me saying that every person fighting to the bitter end is an idiot for doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I don't think that, and never will. It isn't the quitter label, as I stated above. It is when you stoop to the same level as those trolls who sit in a WZ and call everyone names that I consider an attack. No, you haven't called anyone names, but you have made plenty of negative implications about what kind of person someone is based on your generalization of them in an warzone. The bottom line for me is that if I see someone out there busting their hump for 10 minutes trying every trick in the book to get their team into the fight, then I am probably going to cut them a little slack near the end of the match if we are completely smoked and they throttle down a little bit in the last 1-2 minutes. I did think of a couple of questions for you judgemental types. 1. If I am solo guarding a turret and we are reaching the point in a warzone where we MUST have 3 turrets to win, am I a quitter if I abandon my post in an attempt to nab at least one more objective? I ask this because my attitude in that situation is similar to a hockey team who pulls the goalie. One turret isn't going to matter if we can't get the other two. 2. If a team caps a door in a voidstar and has 5-8 of their team all guarding against a disarm, am I a quitter if I just go to the other door and wait for it to open so I can get into the next area and slow them down instead of trying to disarm in the first place?

We've all had those games where you managed an epic comeback. They are, indeed, very fun moments.

Pay me to play the game and you'll get your money's worth. Put me on a team of my friends and others that I have developed a bond with, and you'll get that effort. (When I say 'me' I mean pretty much any athlete). And I don't ridicule you for that, nor do I make a sweeping generalization about the type of person you are. It is your perogative. All I ask is that if you are going to essentially take an elitist point of view regarding anyone you see not fighting at your side, that you at least try to get them into the fight rather than just expecting them to be exactly like you in every way. The beauty of playing an MMO is the mix of people you get to encounter. I don't challenge you to say that. Each statement is true. What I DO challenge you to do is to legitimately put me and players like me into the same category as the players who I assume trigger your rage, i.e. players who die once and raise the white flag. If I, or another player, are in there busting their *** trying to get people organized and get some results, then it is incredibly short sighted to jump down our throats when we run out of steam. I really don't get why you are attacking me from your high horse when I am civilly putting forth a legitimate counter argument to your point of view that DOESN'T totally disagree with some of your points. By the by, I don't think 6-0 Huttballs are fun from EITHER team's point of view.

Down 5-0 in a ****tball. Enemy team has a guarded sniper in cover near our goal line and are obliterating everybody that steps out of the spawn. I cryo to knock him out of cover, then grapple him across the line to end everyone's suffering. Quitter? The problem with this debate of quitting is that there are too many 'shades of grey' areas. I agree that the people 'whining' or raging in chat while not doing anything and coming up with low numbers are the worst to have on your team. If I eventually back off to a turret, and on the final scoreboard I have top damage, protection, and kb's on our team, then I challenge anyone to say that I didn't 'try'. Yes, it's a slow day at work for me.

It's even more effective if you accompany some of that 'non-verbal' communication with some calmly delivered verbal communication. Also, laughing at someone trying to win is different than laughing at someone who thinks that running in and pressing a few buttons = trying to win. (I don't laugh at either of them.) As for the above poster (several posts up actually), nobody thinks they are 'more intelligent' than everyone else (OK, that's probably not true...this is a PvP area). As for quitting when you are mathematically out of it, what is wrong when you need a 3 cap (for example) to win, with people who maybe don't have their 8 medals yet to try to nab at least a couple of defense medals before the match ends? When I say mathematically out of it, I mean something along the lines of 500-200 with 1 turret. There is a HUGE difference between turtling up near the end of a match and turtling up as soon as you think the match might possibly, maybe, just could be a little out of reach.

I don't disagree here. However, I don't deign to think I can control what 7 other players do. I can try to get them moving, but am smart enough to know when their morale is bottomed out, in which case my 2v6 scenario is applicable. I do get a chuckle when I 2v6 with a friend and manage to get enough of them piling onto me that he ninja's the turret...even if it flips back about 10 seconds later. It's the little things:D

What, exactly, is 'my kind'? Just because I don't share your point of view doesn't tell you what you need to know to make that sort of statement. Frankly, I have pulled off similar feats. If it was the end of the match, it's very likely that the other 5 people on the enemy team didn't show up to help because by that time there was no point. If I have a partner in crime to run in with me 2v3, I'll do it all day long. If I have some random player trying to get me to help him 2v6, he can get stuffed. Do I sometimes quit diving into the blender over and over? I sure do. Do I think less of someone who continues to suicide over and over? Nope. Maybe that's a lesson your kind could learn from. Edit : I don't agree with the guy above me who pretty much sounds like he quits as soon as he sees the HP on his team. I've actually found that to be a good time to 'coach' some of the newer 50s up a little, and getting folks to play intelligently can have huge benefits even in a loss.

So basically you want people who share your point of view to contribute to this thread and are forbidding anyone who has ever recognized when a match is effectively over to stay out of it. Personally, I think there isnt' an easy answer to any of your questions. Early in a match, I'd say it's better if someone who is fed up leaves... later in the match I think it's probably smarter to just stick it out for your commendations and valor. You don't have to be Patton to be able to analyze a match and figure out the odds for each team, and making a personal decision at that point doesn't indicate whether you are a decent person or not. Here's a counter question for you. What's worse, someone who recognizes that their team isn't listening, has no plan, and is mathematically out of the game and so decides to milk what they can out of the rest of the time in the warzone without feeding the other team (thus contributing to the enemy growing stronger)... or someone who expects their entire team to suicide over and over until time runs out and justifies it by falsely calling it 'trying'.? If you want people to get back in the fight, propose a strategy.... without raging. If you can't get pugs to follow your instructions, que with people you know you can count on. It's not that hard to pick out people when you're pugging that you know have a clue and get them into a group. I'd much rather people 'quit' than some idiot who has died 15 times rage at me in chat claiming that running in with no strategy to fight 4-8 people on his own is 'trying'.

If you are ranged, then you should have certain skills to help you create space. Most of the effective cookie cutter builds that you'll find online will factor these skills in. Bottom line is, once you have a melee strafing around you, you need to switch to your CC and your instant cast skills. Targeting them should just be a matter of hitting tab or clicking on them (tab is easier...just a little unreliable at times) and then the game keeps you faced, which is a big bonus for ranged/caster classes in this particular MMO. Once they are in your face, if they are almost dead then use whatever you can to nuke them down. If they are nowhere near dead, use a combination of CC and defensive skills to create space, and THEN try to get a rotation off. They key is not to panic...which is difficult for the best of us at times.

Pretty sure they gave up on PvP when 1.2 came out and shifted all PvP out of the Open World. I'd have thought with Warhammer as a model they could've designed a competent system for the PvP servers.

It's pretty sad that you are locked in to whatever set you picked for your Battelmaster when you get ready to upgrade to War Hero...

The first advice I would give someone who hates PvP is just not to participate. That's not a troll response, just my knee jerk reaction to the title of your post. Now, after reading your post, it seems more like you are asking for advice because you hate not being good at PvP...not the PvP itself. That being the case, here are some things I would suggest. Build/Spec - Do research. Delve into your class forums, google your class, whatever. Believe it or not, a very small percentage of 'hardcore' PvPers actually develop the build that everyone ends up using. Typically, folks find a guide of some sort and adopt the suggested build as a starting point, and then tweak it to taste from there. These guides also will generally include suggested skill rotations and other tidbits. As for hand/eye coordination, the good thing is that MMO PvP takes a bit less of that than, say, a Shooter. You can target hostile players through tab-targetting (buggy but I find that clicking a target in a huge melee in SWTOR is next to impossible). Clicking your target if they're off to the side, however, is pretty easy. Also, use your ops frames or target of target window to pick your friendly target (for heals or guard). Keybinds - These are pretty much a must. They also can be ridiculously uncomfortable to get used to if you are a 'clicker'. Keybinding all skills is helpful, but I know plenty of talented players who are 'hybrid' clicker/keybinders. This will ultimately come down to a comfort level for each individual. Skill descriptions - read them, compare them, see which ones are linked. Also take into account things like cast time, channel time, etc. When I say 'read them', I mean carefully and completely. Tactics and movement - I probably should've listed this with the keybinds, but you will want to try to learn to move with a combination of your mouse (forward and turning) and your keyboard (strafing). Once again, if you are a WSAD movement player, learning this will be pretty uncomfortable at first... practice in PvE. As for your tactics and positioning, my best advice is to find someone who you view as a 'good' PvPer and watch how they move, when they commit, where they attack from, etc. Nothing is going to be a better tool than paying attention to people who are better than you. Finally, be prepared to die... alot. Unfortunately that is part of the learning curve (which never ends). The advantage you have is that you have already acknowledged that you are not 'good' at PvP, so the implication is you already are dying a good bit. Keep your head up and stick it out. No matter how good you get, there will always be someone out there better than you.