I don't care if you use them. You are getting them - just not handed to you in-game, you will have to do a little extra work to parse them and it will have to be for analysis after the fact. And - depending on which mode gets implemented - you will either a) have access only to your own information and have to ask for parses from others or b) you will have all of your group/Op and have to parse those. Now, up until one of the more recent postings on this thread I was of the opinion that the log each person got was only containing their own information but that quote sort of muddies the waters. In any case - you are getting what you want in one fashion or another and if it is option 'b' from above you aren't even being asked to compromise with those of us that would prefer you not have access to our information without asking. In a nutshell - you have no reason to be complaining.

If you are trying to indicate that you need WoW numbers to indicate success there will never again be a successful MMO to fit your definition. WoW caught lightning in a bottle by taking a successful model(EQ1), lowering the cost of entry and making it accessible to the 'masses' through a lot of dumbing down (mods/add-ons playing a major role in that). Beyond that - quantity =! quality. There are a lot of people in the world (far more than subscribe to WoW) the believe their opinion of what is 'right' is the correct one with an equal or greater number completely convinced that those people are 'wrong' and that their position is right. Pick any two major religions if you need an example. Just because you have a lot of people on-board doesn't mean you are doing everything right and I suspect, given the choice, many of the current developers on WoW would remove mods/add-ons in a heartbeat as they only serve to make their jobs harder.

Everquest 1 (still around after all these years) - unless you are going to argue that it has never been successful - never introduced mods Everquest 2 (still around and sucessful) LotR, DDO, DCUO - to name a few others. Though to a lesser degree, admittedly, they are still around and turning a profit (or they wouldn't be). IF you are asking which MMO's have any many subscribers as WoW and are using that is the sole measuring stick to be successful then there will never again be a successful MMO. WoW is an aberration in the MMO field the likes of which won't be repeated - primarily because they took a successful model, lowered the cost of entry and made it accessible to the 'masses' through a lot of dumbing down (mods/add-ons playing a major role in that).

Well - I imagine that he means in-between each boss fight the raid leader or associated 'log manager' will be popping out and doing that. Or, if they are like me (despite I'm anti-combat log), they have multiple workstations and would just run it on the one next to me. The information presented in that Dev chat that I don't think we had before (or I hadn't seen) was that they seem to indicate that it isn't a personal log but a group/op log. If that is the case then it will still be slightly annoying to use being out of game BUT it will give people wanting a full combat log a lot more than was previously indicated.

There are plenty of successful MMO's that don't allow mod'ing like WoW does. So your assertion is wrong out of the gate. In fact, with the exception of WoW and Rift MOST MMO's don't allow direct add-ons or mods. So, I can only assume that you only consider those two games to be successful?

How can you not see that is circular logic? We need logs and meters to make hard mode harder so the we can use our meters and logs to figure out the harder encounters so they can then be made harder.... ad infinitum. The truth is you don't need logs and meters to make the encounter harder, you just think you do because you've likely always had access to them if you came from WoW. There were plenty of 'hard' encounters before WoW came along and there weren't add-ons. Beyond that - how someone can say that having all the numbers, events, timers, etc. handed to them by the system somehow means things are HARDER than not having those things staggers the mind.

Stupiddrummer is a pro-combat logs person. He is making the above comment as some kind of sarcastic troll to get people to dispute him and cast the anti-log people in a bad light. Ignore him and he will go away again for a period of time.

I agree with everything said here. It mirrors a similar conversation we are having in the Combat Logs thread and I couldn't have stated it better myself (and I've tried. ) Introducing all these 'tools' rapidly devolved the player base from 'playing the game' to 'playing the numbers'. And there is zero good that can come in the long run from taking that approach. If anything the way that WoW apparently approached this (I'm not a WoW player) and the results of it should be a large warning claxon to any MMO that follows. If you don't want to design your encounters based off 3rd party tools providing every scrap of mechanics information to the player you are best off not to allow it upfront.

I don't think there is any question that he agrees with you. It is the ongoing assertion that people are afraid of having their numbers shown and thus don't want combat logs that is fundamentally flawed and yet you (and he) both keep stating it like fact. I don't give a rats arse if someone sees my numbers - I have already stated time and time again that I'm in a raiding guild that runs parses during the fight real-time. However, if they had asked us in THAT game if we wanted/needed them I would have said No then to.

And how did you come to this ill-informed and completely wrong conclusion? Were you listening to Starglide state it as fact again?

And these are the types of statements that I take exception to. You are pretty clearly stating that anyone that disagrees with you doesn't understand how the system works and that only by reading your enlightening OP would they hope to grasp it to the level you do. I fully understand the issue, I use combat logs (and threat meters) in other games for raiding and I disagree with you.

And if you were paying attention (and I know you've been around here a long time on this thread) you would know that a corrected link has been posted over and over to allow voting. Why we can't get the OP corrected to reflect it, I don't know - but if you want to vote the information to do so is available. You state that you have been unable to vote on the poll personally which means you either a) chose not to for some reason (likely so you can continue to rail against it) or b) you are incapable of following a link when it is provided. And let's make no mistake - if the poll results were coming down solidly on the side that you and OP support you would be holding it up as the pillar of accuracy and reflection of the player base. You are going to say you won't but anyone that has been reading your comments on this thread know better. Here it is - again: http://poll.pollcode.com/f28b

Entitled is such a nasty word. You (and I, for that matter) aren't entitled to anything from BW other than them making the game available to play for the money we pay them (and even THAT isn't an absolute). You WANT a combat log because it will make your life easier for the things you do in game. I think we all get that and understand, even if we don't agree that it is required. The issue continues to be a few things though.. You are getting a combat log which allows you to get the information you are requesting AND that of your friends if they are willing to share it with you. Some in the pro-camp acknowledge this but still want more and it is that 'more' that starts to infringe on others and points out why the BW solution is the more elegant one. You comment about Story mode and griefing and even say that BW should crack down in those events. All well and good but how does BW police that 24/7? Should they? Probably not. By providing the logs this way they don't have to because the possibility for it to happen is completely removed. Again, a far more elegant solution that doesn't change the information YOU are able to get but doesn't negatively impact anyone else. The difficulty setting of a given encounter doesn't even have any bearing on the conversation at all. I do hard-modes without a combat log now (guess what? Everyone doing HM/NM right now are doing them without a log) - so clearly the 'requirement' isn't there. It continues to come down to 'want' vs. 'need' - nobody needs them. And before you roll out the 'they can't make harder encounters without one' argument that we both know is coming... that is factually incorrect on its face. How could one honestly state that the only way to make an encounter harder/challenging is to provide the end-user with detailed information on every element of it? How can you even keep a straight-face while saying it? On-screen prompts, debuffs, sound effects, animations, etc. - all the things the BW has indicated they want the player base to be paying attention to (y'know - playing the game) is the way to make encounters diverse and a puzzle to figure out... not '10:45:30am Soandso casts 'Destroy Starglide' for 10,000 points of damage and renders his argument moot.' '10:46:25am Starglide deftly avoids figuring out the encounter himself for due to spoon fed information.' As for the final element - there is nothing baseless about the fact that people use combat logs to punish other players. You say you haven't seen it and we have no choice but to take your word for it BUT I'm not really convinced. It happens pretty much every day and isn't restricted to hard encounters. Granted - my saying I've seen it is no more compelling than your saying you never have - we both have a burden of proof we can't meet.. but I know what I have seen regardless.

So - as a car without a steering wheel or instruments would be completely unusable as a 'car' it is your assertion that an MMO without a combat log is completely unplayable? Just hoping for some clarification because random analogies are so much fun.

Thanks! Interestingly enough I'm going to use the combat log that they are providing to improve my performance and also play with like-minded individuals. You can do it too!

Are we supposed to vote again? Then - No - just like last time and for the same reasons.

I have some homework for you. Go back and read the thread - then come back and make an intelligent comment that we can respond to. SO tired of people popping in and making this inane throw-away comments as if they reflect the conversation.

I talk about my expertise in response to a question regarding it. You don't need to care, your opinion on it doesn't matter. As for the 'submerged' concept. You are actually trying to indicate that playing math to min/max is submerging yourself in the environment? Really? That entire process completely removes you from the game. And you people keep ignoring the fact that you ARE getting a log of your dmg. You are - it is coming - you are getting the numbers. Please stop playing the martyr.

I am curious on this though - and I'll admit I have a splitting headache so maybe I missed it but... You have a tiny group of people (in your opinion) that post on the forums.. let's say 100. Of that group you have a smaller amount that posts on the specific thread... maybe 80. Of THAT group only a smaller subsection goes and answers the poll... let's go with 60. Of that 60 people - 50 of them say NO and 10 say YES to the Combat Log. In what world does that make the 50 people a 'vocal minority' while giving the 10 people some elevated 'we are real majority' status?

You aren't and haven't addressed the various comments I've made about playing the game vs. playing the numbers. Also - you are making some pretty odd assumptions about what I've said. Clearly the Dev's use numbers/spreadsheets/etc. to create and balance things. The point is - they are making a game, you are playing it. Playing it doesn't require knowing every tiny detail of a system and when you get to that point you aren't playing the game at all you are 'doing the maths'. I get that you enjoy 'doing the maths' (or apparently having SithWarrior do them for you) but along with your mindset come the need for Devs to cater to it. And that is where things start to get dangerous. Also, if you have read my various posts you would know that I am in IT (not that it is relevant) - I've done everything from programming to database design to my existing job as Sr. Systems Administrator. So - yea - you are wrong all over the place. ;p

But you are getting the numbers. Not those of everyone around you without their consent and, admittedly, not is an easy to digest format... but you are getting them. And I appreciate your response on this one. I had pretty much given up hope that there would ever be any common understanding.

Sure - you have to execute a strategy with a few other people who also have to perform. That's playing the game and should be encouraged. Taking all the information from an encounter that is handed to you while you stand there, not bothering to play because you are gathering stats, isn't playing. And don't try to pretend that doesn't happen. There are many guilds/raids that go into a new encounter the first few times not planning to win (or even really try) but simply to gather what the mob does, when and how often so they can then 'figure out' the encounter. I've been in those raids. And you keep glossing over the fact that you ARE getting what you want in this implementation. They are telling you these things - just not for everyone in your group unless they send the log to you.

Combat logs != harder encounters. The Devs have stated how they want you to approach their encounters: on-screen actions, prompts, notification text. They want you to pay attention to the GAME not the numbers. How is an encounter harder when the log is actually telling you exactly what happened, when and how often? You folks really need to stop using the concept that encounters will be too easy without combat logs as a pillar of your argument.

I read it and my point stands. They don't have logs and they have found other ways to analyze the data and by their own admission 'figure stuff out'. That's how all of these games used to be before people started requiring the Devs to tell them exactly what is happening in painful detail. Back in the early days of these games (I remember EQ1 specifically) they didn't give you jack for numbers AND the Devs stood firm telling the player community that supplying that information would just turn it into a math game. They eventually broke down and provided that information.. and guess what? They were 100 percent correct on what would happen. You don't NEED to know everything that is happening to effectively play the game. You aren't a better player because you know it than anyone else that doesn't know it - you are better informed but you aren't really 'playing' the game anymore anyway... you are playing the numbers.

And that type of minute min/max control is what lowers these games to a spreadsheet that the Developers then have to also play to in order to keep up. Having a 'good idea' of what is happening and making decisions based on that information is playing - having the numbers handed to you isn't and doesn't make you a good player, it makes you able to do math.