Interesting read. So, if what you are stating above is correct - all of this information was collected, analyzed and broken down *without* combat logs? And it's accurate and useful? They were able to generate statistical models from the numbers presented on tooltips and observation? There are *other* ways to do things than a combat log that spoon feeds it to you? Is that what you are saying? Because that is how I'm reading it.

He's not alone in this. The vast majority of the pro-side say they want to get their information to better themselves and then say they want it all and the tool is worthless without it. It's like they think we can't see what they are asking for from post to post.

To a degree. Although the implementation they are presenting gives me MORE choices (and him too, for that matter). More is better. /nod

I spend a lot of time working with enormous databases and the Infrastructure around them - so I'm pretty well-versed in what you are talking about. It doesn't take a lot to bring even the most robust DB system to its knees with concurrent queries from just a few people, multiply that by those playing the game and you are asking for trouble. I don't think the approach you are leaning towards is realistic - and I have a lot of experience trying to allow pretty much what you are saying they might be doing. I gather from your response(s) that you are also pretty well informed on the subject and I think you are understating the impact of what you profess (maybe on purpose).

You want me to tell you exactly? Okay. If you want to raid with me you *must* allow me to see your log. I *do* want to raid. You have removed my choice by presenting only one option. This isn't a hard concept to grasp.

Agreed. Every major MMO (including this one) stores every action taken into their DB for whatever future reporting they might want to make on that data. I understand that and agree that it is happening here as well, so maybe my comment about the overhead wasn't exactly what I meant to imply. It's more that I don't see them running SQL (or Oracle) queries against their database every time I ask for MY data as being an overly efficient way to approach this. Assuming you take the path of least resistance you would simply stream the data to a log file as it happens and their comment about 'download' is just a poorly chosen phrasing.

You are correct when you previously stated that we don't actually know what they mean. They do say 'downloadable' and maybe it is - but that seems like an odd way to do it. The amount of additional overhead they would have to put in place just to store that information server-side until requested for everyone playing the game would seem to be prohibitive. Again - anything is possible. And, I know that he would overwhelmingly prefer to have everyone's information presented to him BUT he has also stated more than a few times that he wants to see his stuff to make himself better. Usually when someone calls him out on wanting to judge other people he flops to the 'nope- just me!' response.

I'm not forcing anything on him - I don't work for Bioware and I didn't make this decision. I happen to support their decision but you are placing your venom on the wrong party. Of course - if he/you are given exactly what YOU are asking for then you are automatically able to impose your 'l33t-ness' on me without any input from me. Right now, with the impending implementation, I can decide to allow you to have my log and parse it. This implementation allows for me to choose (and you to choose, and your raid leader to mandate it to their members and choose) - your implementation preference removes the choice.

Okay - so you think that what they are offering when they say that they are sending the logs to your hard drive is ... what exactly? That they will be storing up everything you are doing during your session on their server somewhere and then will dump it to you upon request? I suppose *anything* is possible but I think you are stretching reality a bit to try and make a point. As for getting what he wants - he has stated more than a few times that he really wants to see what he is doing and use it to improve himself (sometimes he flip-flops into wanting everything from everyone as well). So, at a minimum, he will be getting what he says he wants in percentage of his posts on the subject.

ACT - write a plug-in and use ACT. You continue to assert the same tired argument even though you can do what you want if you put a minimal amount of effort into it. I'm beginning to think you are purposely trolling at this point. You are getting what you profess to want - data regarding your performance. BW isn't feeding it to you in-game but I can guarantee that someone will make a plug-in for ACT that reads that file real-time and presents it to you. Hell - maybe I'll do it just to shut you up.

And you will see this with the implementation that is being used. Why is that getting lost? They specifically stated that you will see what YOU did and what happened to YOU.

Honestly - I think you are the one misunderstanding what is coming. They stated that you will have a log dumping to your hard drive which contains everything that you did/was done to you. That is what EQ2 does only it includes everyone for the actual parseable combat log. You could write an ACT plug-in that parses that data as it is written and displays it to you on the G15.

And you are getting that... granted, just for YOUR data, but you are getting it. Is that where the problem is? You want everyone elses data as well without having to ask for it? Maybe that is where we have our disconnect. I don't think you need to see my information to make yourself a better player. But if you feel you must have it, you can always ask.

I'm not from WoW. I don't play a game that automatically populates combat logs into the game experience. I'm from EQ2 and I use ACT to parse the log file real-time and display it on my G15 LCD display. That same functionality could be incorporated with this implementation but only for your DPS/information. I have no issue with this and you are still able to get what you want (even real-time if you make the effort).

Okay - we may not agree on this topic but I do like your comment above about my zen-like gaming experience. It made me laugh for reals. And I appreciate that.

Not providing the ability to do it eliminates the possibility of the behavior and they are still able to provide the functionality to see how you are doing personally. Really - it's an elegant solution.

I don't think you understand what you are getting - at all. They are going to dump your combat information to a log on your computer that you can then parse through with a tool, similar to ACT that was linked previously. It isn't a DPS meter like you keep professing - it is a combat log that includes only your combat information. That is how they are presenting it and that is my understanding of it until they say otherwise. You continue to claim it is something else and then rail against it.

Not funny - I didn't make the poll but I did vote on it. The bias of the poll creator is the funny part because he is getting the polar opposite of the response he wanted. If you don't want to follow the proper link and vote on the poll to make it reliable I can't make you do it.

I do see the people complaining that is says they already voted and a lot of those (I would say the majority if you go back and check) are also in the No column - so it would only skew it more that direction. Also - there is a link that does work if you look up this page a bit and you can vote.

Given that you are already unhappy with their choices and you don't even believe that they are capable of understanding an issue that you are clearly passionate about you aren't doing yourself a service by continuing to pay them. Move on and speak with your cash if that is your intent but don't try to force the rest of us (or BW) to conform to your world view so they can keep your $15/mo. The poll pretty clearly shows which side of the issue you fall on and it is the minority.

They fully understand the issue - they just don't agree with you on the implementation. That is more your problem than theirs.

It can be very easily argued that adding combat logs, which gives you information on the fights that you don't even need currently, makes the encounters easier - not harder. It is far more challenging to figure out the encounter based on in-game events than looking at a log and seeing exactly what happened. In fact, combat logs will make the content that currently exists even easier to figure out because the work is being done for you. Hard core people that really want a challenge and aren't just paying it lipservice should be adamantly against being spoon fed encounter data.

You get everything you need with this implementation. You can see what YOU are doing and tweak to your hearts content. If you want to judge your buddies you can ask for theirs and, if they are willing, you can berate them as well. There is zero requirement for more than what they are providing.

Good is a relative/opinion-based concept. You think it is good - many of us don't. You are not 'right' and we are not 'wrong'. Ack! The air conditioning analogy is back!

I agree that PUG's are a nightmare no matter how you approach it and I don't do them. That doesn't mean that I want to add an element that will make them even worse. As for the min/max people - they can use the system being implemented to accomplish what they want.