In other words "I don't like my jugg, so nerf it instead of my PT please." You're flat out insane if you think a PT is WEAKER than a jugg. You're flat out insane if you think a PT is NOT op and a jugg IS. Sure, charge intercede and oblit are nice. But force push OFTEN throws people the way they want to go, and force choke works, maybe 30% of the time, most of the time, people continue casting or running around like nothing is going on, while I'm basically stunned (but not given resolve). In the mean time, a good PT can burn 80% of my health in the time it takes smash to come off CD. So, yeah, I definitely see where juggs need a nerf and PTs don't... wait... no, no, that's backwards.

The reason I have to laugh when people imply that it's a bad thing that dps can take out healers 1v1 is this: If we can only stalemate healers 1v1, what do you think happens when a healer gets guard? And cross heals? And peels? They're unkillable. They're unkillable NOW. You want to buff them?

2 EAST, 4 MID, 2 WEST! Ok, well, here's why you're an idiot: Who is the 2 going east, who is the 4 going mid, who is the 2 going west? I'm not saying 2,4,2 is bad, I wouldn't say 2, 6, 0 is bad, I'm saying if you use numbers instead of names, you'll get 1 east, MAYBE, 7 mid, because generally, the only people who are willing to guard are people who SHOULDN'T be guarding (i.e., 50's who just banged 50 and don't even have recruit gear, and will be dead before they can type "stealther east."

Not for nothing, but it annoys me greatly when people say that tanks have guard, taunts, cc, mobility and so on - JUGGERNAUTS have all of that, reguardless of spec, though, technically they don't have a cc, they have a mezz. And when spec'd they have an instant stun (instead of a channel that also stuns the juggernaut). if you're going to tell someone they need to learn the class, I suggest you do so as well. Also, fyi, mass taunt doesn't lower an entire teams dps unless they are extraordinarily stupid. Juggernaut/guardian tanks don't get as much as you think for the dps they lose. They actually could stand a buff.

I think you're wrong. While ssm will add to our burst slightly, the loss of relics is going to be catastrophic. I see at least a 20% difference between smashing with a relic and without. I agree with everything else you said, but I think you're underestimating how badly the loss of relics is going to damage our burst ability. SSM is not going to even come close to making up for it.

Mobs always seem to come to me when I LOS them. Does that mean that if, instead of charge you could simply always LOS mobs into you, you'd be fine? I understand you, but I really don't agree. Stealth is IMMENSELY more powerful than charge. It's even massively better than both charge and intercede. And an extra cc can be the difference between you dying and you not dying. "Mobility" will almost NEVER make the difference between you dying and you not dying and in the cases where it would, force shroud would have been better. In the context your putting it, mobility isn't a counterbalance at all, it's simply a convenience. You could just as well trundle up to the mobs and start hitting them. The only thing would be that you would start out with no rage - but, oh, wait, both PT's and sins start out with full damage/threat resource. No, again, I strongly strongly disagree. Do a flashpoint with a fresh 50 healer who is struggling to keep you alive and tell me that cc'ing an extra mob wouldn't make a WORLD of difference. Sure, when you have a solid healer and you have sufficient gear it doesn't matter. But when you don't? No difference at all? I just don't see that. Knocking off 30ish% of your incoming damage for 1 minute? There's NO tank cd that is that good. Actually it brings me to another point - even when I spec rage and can 1 shot all trash mobs within 5 meters of me, my sin is *still* faster - because she never has to engage those mobs. Not to mention that the spawn timer is set so that many quests will have mobs spawning behind you once you finish so I find myself engaging the same trash packs two times instead of 0. And if I try to do dailies as tank spec? Yeah, it'd take me 4 or 5 times as much time as my assassin to get the same quest done. I don't get why you're ok with this. I don't get why ANYONE would be ok with this.

Then how does blacklights work, eh smart guy?!? (j/k)

Where is mobility anywhere near as important as a cc in any fight (where you can cc stuff)? Keeping in mind that while they don't have intercede & charge, they DO have force speed. I've heard "mobility is great" but I don't see where it's anywhere in the same magnitude as an additional cc on any fight except boss fights where you can't cc. If it WERE a game changer, people would be going out of their minds complaining that you have to be a jugg to do certain fights. I don't understand WHY you don't care. I go through a ton of credits continually having to respec, so doing dailies is kind of important to me. And honestly, even if you don't count the amount of time it takes to get a group, you can STILL do it faster with a sin by itself than you can with a FULL group, because you STILL have to fight all that trash. Also, in flashpoints, you're saying mobility is important. WHERE is it important? I can' t think of a fight where I say to myself "wow, charge/intercede makes a HUGE difference." I can't think of a place where its much more than just a convenience. What examples do you have where there is a large difference?

I get what you're saying. What I am saying is that sins are as good as juggs in ops. I wouldn't ask for one to be better than the other in ops. I don't agree that jugs are good as sins in flashpoints because in ops, you're going to have all the cc's you want, in flashpoints you may not, and sins provide a cc, juggs do not. When you over gear it like crazy, that's fine. when you don't, the extra cc makes a tremendous difference. And soloing sins are head & shoulders above juggs - I don't get why it's ok for that imbalance to exist, when there is no counterbalance whatsoever. I have, and I'm simply shocked. NOBODY I know of has claimed that immortal dps is even on par with other tank AC's. And my own experience is that my HORRIBLY geared assassin hits MASSIVELY harder than my jugg - and I know a lot less about how to dps as a tankasin than I do as a jugg. Is your contention that immortal jugg dps is GOOD compared to assassins?

That's a reasonable answer. There are some places in groups where I can see it helps, not just threat, but the reduced damage of intercede. That said, I wouldn't say it's a *huge* benefit in pve. Particularly given how often it's an extraordinarily bad idea to make a boss suddenly want to run away from where he is to where a dps or a healer is (because that's where the tank just went). Outside of that though, your claiming that juggernaut mobility is actually way more important than I give it credit for - where all is charge & intercede THAT important in pve? Also, one other thing - people tend to forget that force speed is REALLY REALLY good as well, talented it can even remove movement imparing effects - so I'd argue that in some circumstances jugg mobility is LESS than sin mobility. AND it doesn't require someone to stand where you want to go - though I admit it DOES require an actual path. What I would say is that juggs have a SLIGHT mobility advantage, but NOTHING like "having stealth" and "not having stealth." But you're making my point. Why does one AC get decent self heals, stealth AND cc, and one ac get.... something that only makes us "on par" with other tanks in groups? Honestly, I can't really thing of a place where a jugg is even as good as a sin in most circumstances. Pretty much the ONLY thing I can think of is in ops, and then ONLY on bosses, we have next to no aoe threat. But even then I'd only say we were "as good." Honestly, I'm ok with only "as good." Against bosses. I wouldn't WANT one AC to be better than others in what is clearly the main reason for tanks to exist. All I'm saying is that if we're only "as good" as other tanks in ops - why are they head and shoulders better in almost every other aspect of the game?

....Which is EXACTLY my point. Why do they have stealth and cc? I'd be ok if they had stealth and we had cc, I'd be ok if we had stealth and they had cc, but we have neither, they have both. Ah, the "you have no skill" post. Ok, sure, ignore the fact that I can clear at least hard modes enough to get rakata gear. Ignore the fact that, honestly, there's not THAT much skill involved in cycling through your tank cds while going through your rotation. It's easy enough to do h2's with my undergeared sin that even my own retarded lack of skills lack of reaction poor connection &c. &c. &c. can easily do it, and my overgeared jugg can not. In other words, with all respect that is warranted (ie none), you're full of crap, sir. But even if you weren't, the disparity is so large, that my obviously unskilled hack self can easily do h2's. Answer that, sir. Either I'm a skilless cludge, but stealth + cc is so powerful that even an utter failtard like myself can do it as a sin OR, it is the fact that not having stealth and cc DOES matter. Either way, you're wrong. You're either wrong about being a hack (which I may well be) or you're wrong about the power of cc + stealth. Take your pick. Also, you're a liar, or you've only seen astonishingly horrible dps. I'm pretty sure it's the former, given that I know of pretty much nobody who is saying that immortal jugg dps is on par with even other tanks, forget ACTUAL dps. LOL!!!!!!! Are you SERIOUSLY trying to say that the ability to skip 3 or 4 trash packs is a "minor" disparity? Are you honestly going to try to tell me that cc'ing an elite so you only have to fight 1 elite and 2 strongs is "minor." yeah, ok, troll. Keep chattering.

The thing that burns my *** up is - even when my sin has to do trash packs she's STILL better. Lights out, my 14k health sin, who's only purple came from a flashpoint and doesn't even have a shield generator can cc one mob, then her and her healer companion can take on the rest. My 20k jugg, in REALLY good tank gear DIES on the same pull after blowing every single tanking cd he has (my sin only used her bubble, and I'm not entirely sure she needed that). Please explain to me how this makes any sense whatsoever. Please tell me how I'm better in a flashpoint, how I'm better in pvp, how I'm better at any *********** content this game has to offer especially given that I'm at least 2 tiers better geared? I seriously believe that if I geared my sin up, she would be BETTER at main tanking ops than my jugg, hands down. Her dps is already VASTLY better, her durability seems near on par. WHAT.... THE... ****?!?

There's "you're not dps" then there's "it's not worth your time to do dailies because you don't have sufficent dps." Immortal juggs aren't in the second category yet, but I'm watching for 1.3 when our heaviest hitter is being nerfed.

I don't see where veng has any burst mechanics - I mean AT ALL. Veng damage is great, don't get me wrong. But you're not going to make a good healer panic with smooth sustained damage. I go in with rage, if the healer's at 60% health, and I'm ready to go, he's dead. With veng, I'll get him to 25% then all it's all "lol my free heal can keep up with your damage." This is true until 1.3 at which point I have to find another main. :-(

Good thing you NEVER EVER EVER want to pvp. Particularly since they're also cutting the legs out from rage.

I wouldn't want everything to be the same. But I do want some degree of parity. Why do sins get stealth AND a cc AND self healing with almost no cd at all when juggs get NONE of that. Why the hell play a crippled class? Still not answering the question. Why does 1 AC get a cc, stealth, and good self healing when another tank AC gets NONE of that. What do juggs get that make up for NOT having cc, stealth, and good self healing? We're not better at pvp (which is fine), we're not better at ops or flashpoints (which is fine). Why are we trash at soloing (which is NOT fine). I get different classes are different. But that shouldn't be an excuse to allow one AC to have a plethora of what you need to be successful at soloing and another AC gets told "different classes are different, you got the poop end of the stick." edited to add this thought: To those saying "just get a group, lol" - juggs are STILL worse tanks in groups because of the same reason we suck at soloing. We don't have a cc, we don't have reasonable self healing, and if the healer has stealth, it doesn't matter, we STILL have to kill EVERY SINGLE MOB between the instance entrance and the objective. We don't have better dps, we aren't better at getting/keeping threat (though i wouldn't argue we're worse). WHAT do juggs get in return for not having cc, decent self heals, and stealth? Leaping around isn't terribly useful when soloing. It's not terribly useful in groups. It's great in pvp - but then so is force speed (which removes all movement imparing effects, unlike leaps).

I HAVE a sin. I have a very crappily geared sin, but I have a sin. And I'd have to say I can't imagine how it could have been easier to do the class story as a sorc than a sin - the last fight I never went below 90% health.

I have a trashily geared assassin. She has a green belt, two green relics, 1 green implant, 1 blue. She has a purple dress, with orange boots, hands, chest head, and weapon. Her offhand is a power generator despite being a tank. I have a rakata geared juggernaut, the worst thing he has is a purple relic that came out of story mode KP, everything else is substantially better. Guess which one can solo level appropriate h2's? The jugg can't get past the first pull in an h2. He simply crumples. The assasssin can complete many h2 by herself. Why? Because most of the time the assassin doesn't bother with trash. And when she does she has 1 actual cc, 1mez, and 1 stun (actually 2 stuns, but one of them I won't count because it's just a gcd. She also, when spec'd and she bothers with it, has a decent stream of self healing on top of what a healing companion can do. The jugg has 1 short duration mez, and that's it. No stealth means if there's a pack of mobs between him and the objective, he has no choice but to take that pack on. There's no spec of juggernaut that has on demand hots that aren't baseline and have little or no cd. I would like to know why there is such a disparity? Why does the assassin get both stealth AND an actual cc when the jugg gets neither? Why are juggs LESS durable against mobs (because they have almost no healing)? Juggs are no more capable (and some would argue less capable, but that's a different argument) tanks in groups than assassins - and honestly, I'm ok with that. I wouldn't want juggs to be much better than any other tank. But I don't understand why juggs don't even have cc, or even self heals with little or no cd. Why are juggs unable to do most level 50 h2's? There's not a single h2 on belsavis that my assassin can't EASILY do, and there's not a level 50 h2 on belsavis my jugg CAN do. The first pull (you know, the one my assassin just skips) in "Freeing the fallen" destorys my rakata clad >20k health jugg where my 14k health assassin skips it, skips the next one, skips the 3rd, then easily solo's the boss. Again, I do NOT want juggs to be better tanks than tankasins or powertechs. I just want to be able to do what tankasins can do when soloing.

No. l2read. I'm not asking to be buffed. I'm not even asking to not be nerfed. I'm not asking for anyone else to be nerfed. I'm asking to make stuff WORK, or change it to stuff that DOES work. That is ALL I'm asking. I don't like getting pulled into fire pits, or the edge of catwalks so I can fall, but I accept that it's part of the game. What I DON'T accept (and honestly, nor should you) is having moves that DON'T work, or, worse, are set up in a way that can actually HELP your opponents.

Serious. I'm sick of trying to push someone off a cat walk, into a fire pit, w/e only to have force push fire up to 3 seconds after I hit it, which is often BENEFICIAL to my target. Also, I'm REALLY sick of seeing AC's that do NOT have anything to prevent cc's, have no resolve, and yet I choke them and they finish their cast, or continue to run around or whatever. Given that they're going to cut rage juggs (focus guards) legs from underneath them.... again.... I don't think I'm asking for the stars and the moons that stuff ACTUALLY work. If it's not possible to make it work, may I suggest removing them and replacing them with stuff that does work, like the various pulls, at least then I too can ultra cheese fights by force pulling someone into a firepit or on the edge of a cat walk. Oh, and on a design note - You should add a DR on roots or at least have it add resolve. Do you even remotely understand that a root IS a cc for melee? It's EXTREMELY (as in end my account) frustrating to get hit with 4 roots in a row, and have 0 resolve so that when the cc hits, well, I guess I'm just riding that out, YAY, I'M FREE, root. I understand that if you have full resolve, you can't be rooted. However, again, a root IS a cc for melee. I don't think I'm asking too much that it also add to resolve.

I don't ever tank in pvp. That said, the 1.3 nerfs are going to destroy jugg tanks at least. And they aren't really that fine right now.

They're the same bonus, so no.

While I do think maras/sents need a nerf to their durability, a correctly spec'd sage will always beat a mara/sent by kiting them. It's not easy, but it's doable.

Exactly this. Always on is horrible for rage. In fact, I don't think any AC is going to be hammered nearly as bad as rage juggs from this. I'd go as far as to say that this, coupled with the 1.2 nerfs is going to push rage to nonviable in wz's.

I honestly don't know what's going through their heads. I'm on Ebon Hawk, the 1 rp server in east that was the destination. It is INSANE now, 30 minute queues to log in, ULTRA laggy wz's, and, do yourself a favor and stay the heck away from fleet. GG, BW, GG.