You're the one suggesting to remove solo ranked to try and swell group ranked...then say that the bad group ranked players should stick to regs? YOU are the reason that group ranked is so empty. You, and those like you.

Sad? More like pathetic.

Yup. It's not a bad idea, either. But you can't have a separate queue for each map. No queues would ever pop.

That's probably true. 50% DR while stunned might be a bit much... Any ideas for trying to make Jedi Promulgator/Cloak of Annihilation more desirable in that tier? Or is it good enough, you think?

Updated OP. Still, I would like to explore the immunity aspect of Ardor/Relentless some more to arrive at the correct power-level and balance. Also, I look and Jedi Promulgator/Cloak of Annihilation and find it underwhelming. What if, instead of putting a damage debuff on Awe/Intimidating Roar, it gave the Sent/Mara some passive DR while stunned? Like, "Additionally, you reduce all damage taken by 30% while stunned." This is a pretty strong effect, but it does cost us a Heroic utility. It combos well with Cloak of Carnage, but also works well without it (and vice versa). I just worry that, as it is now, Jedi Promulgator/Cloak of Annihilation bring very little to the table. Maybe I'm wrong and that damage debuff after Awe/Intimidating Roar is a lot stronger than I'm giving it credit for, but I'd definitely like to hear others' thoughts on it.

So, the way I had it written, it was only roots and slows. I didn't really think about it, but this game defines "movement-impairment" as roots and slows. The Guard/Jugg utility, True Harmony/Through Power, is only MI immunity, and doesn't affect knockbacks and harpoons. That said, what kind of duration were you thinking? What's fair with a 20 or 25 second cooldown?

Not disagreeing with the idea, but your reasoning is unsound. There's no real-life correlation for Huttball (how many sports do you see where people are killing each other with laser swords and guns?). That nit-pick aside, I think it could be fun if there were no respawn timer on the doors. It'd make killing players when you're on offense a terrible idea, as they quickly get back into it and in a better position to stop your ball carrier. It might, MIGHT, actually reduce the amount of deathmatching that happens. Also makes holding mid a bit less awesome because it makes scoring harder. If nothing else, they should try it for a season, and see what people think!

I've been thinking more about the utility array and how it seems like I have a lot of utilities that say "Additionally, [second effect]". I was worried that maybe I was pushing the envelope too far, but just speccing out different builds, I don't end up OP at all. I think the issue is that Sent/Mara have so little utility baseline in the class, which could be a relic of older design philosophy regarding a pure dps melee class. It made me think that some of the utility in this tree should be baseline, which tones down some of the utilities, while also taking off the "must have" pressure. One such change* was with Crippling Throw/Deadly Throw. At 10m, it's just not worth it as far as gap-closing is concerned. Only Watch/Anni might need it as a tool within 10m, but even they have Leap/Charge in that distance with a 12 second cooldown. Which makes me think, to keep this ability viable in PvP (and add some huge QoL in PvE dailies and leveling), that maybe Crippling/Deadly Throw should have a base range of 30m. Then, you delete Reining Reach/Maiming Reach AND remove the cost reduction from Just Pursuit/Inescapable. A 30m attack once every 10 seconds that does decent, but not great, damage and has some nice utility effects for 3 focus seems fair. Then a Heroic utility to add a root to it still seems fair, especially since it'd still cost 3 focus. With that change, I do think I would definitely move Zealous Ward/Blood Ward up to the Masterful tier, then introduce Incisor/Interceptor in the Skillful tier. The more I think about this knockback utility for TST/DST, Hard-Hitting Throw/Pulverizing Throw, the less problematic it seems, as long as it's just a knockback (no knockdown, no additional rooting). It's another movement-control ability, and it has the natural snare from TST/DST still. Not hugely necessary, but a nice little perk for throwing off focus fire, and has obvious uses in WZs. *The other big change I would make to baseline abilities is to turn Transcendence/Predation into a pure mobility tool. I'd add the MI purge to it baseline, and probably remove the 10% melee/ranged defense boost, which may be a contentious change. Then, alter Ardor/Relentless so that it either: granted 4 seconds of MI immunity with Tran/Pred; OR, granted 3 seconds of MI immunity with Tran/Pred, and reduced the Tran/Pred cooldown by 5 seconds. It's close to the same amount of MI immune uptime (16% vs. 15%), but makes the MI purge available 20% more often and increases uptime on the speed boost by 10%. I'll wait until tomorrow before I update the OP again, so we can talk about some of these ideas a bit more!

Just updated the original post. Of course, any further feedback is hugely appreciated, and we can only hope that this catches the eyes of someone. A couple thoughts I had, and looking for feedback on: What if Reigning Reach/Maiming Reach were rolled into Just Pursuit/Inescapable (so that one Heroic utility increased the range of Crippling/Deadly Throw to 30m, reduced its cost to 0 focus/rage, and applied a 3s root)? Is that too good? Or does it make it more competitive against the likes of Transcendent Master/Apex Predator and Force Fade/Phantom? (Talking pretty much solely about PvP here, as roots in PvE is pretty pointless). If we did the above, is Incisor/Interceptor a good replacement in the Masterful tier? I've always felt it's kind of bland as far as Masterful utilities go. If we did the first bullet point, what if we bumped Zealous Ward/Blood Ward, which I worry is too good for Skillful tier, into the Masterful tier, and added Incisor/Interceptor to the Skillful hole, which I feel like is a good Skillful (whereas it's a bland Masterful).

All those answers sound pretty reasonable and accurate. I agree that mobility is more important than movement control (roots), though I would be concerned with 6 seconds of MI immunity on predation, since it can go off every 20s. To compare against other classes with MI immunity, Guards/Juggs can get 10s of it every 60s for 16% uptime, Shadows/Sins can get 2 seconds every 15 seconds (assuming generally accepted utility choices--it could be 2.5 seconds duration, or a longer cooldown, but that's generally considered poor utility choices for PvP) for 13.33% uptime, Scoundrels/Ops are a little harder to gauge because of the roll but it would be like 30% (but, it uses the roll, so they're not really attacking), and VGs/PTs can get 10s every 25s for a whopping 40% uptime. So, one of those is largely considered OP, and I think coming anywhere near it is trying to fight broken with broken. That said, keep the uptime on MI immunity low enough, and I think we have a good number. 3 seconds of MI immunity on Pred activation is 15% uptime on MI immunity (considering a 20s cooldown). If we up the MI immunity time to 4s, but lose the extra 5 seconds of cooldown reduction, we end up with 40% uptime on speed boost, but only 16% uptime on MI immunity. More thoughts on 30m root: when they first made Just Pursuit somewhat take-able, I tested it out quite a bit. It was fairly worthless (Combat/Carnage and Conc/Fury). At 10m, sure, we can root. Or we could just use Gore + DB and VT, or we could just Obliterate. Only Watch/Anni is really hurting at 10m, because reapplying Force Melt/Rend isn't the sexiest attack (but, they can Leap at the short range, and with a 12s cooldown). Full honesty: I feel like Incisor/Interceptor as it currently exists is better than Reining Reach + Just Pursuit. That's why I was pushing the range up to 30 meters. Because then, the ability at least has a use. We'd still be spending 2 utilities on it, but a 30m root on a 10 second cooldown is decent. Really, I think I'd rather see TST/DST get the root, but that ability gets wordy if you want to apply the root to ONLY the target (not the others in the AoE), plus adds complications with Watch/Anni, which use it as part of their rotation. Also since it's impossible to take ALL the mobility utilities AND get the 30m root, I feel like this provides us with options. Want the second rootbreaker in Force Fade/Phantom? Then you have to give up the +30% speed on Tran/Pred plus group speed boost or give up the root on Throw. Totally agree with your assessment of Force Camo finishing the cooldowns on Force Leap/Charge and TST/DST. I do think, though, that an ability to cool them down when exiting combat is great. It makes leveling and Dailies in PvE so much nicer, and it really helps keep up resources in PvP, where rotations don't really exist, and we're constantly entering and exiting combat. But based off your feedback, I think the following should probably happen: Possibly change Ardor/Relentless to: Activating Transcendence/Predation purges you of all movement-impairment effects. Additionally, activating Transcendence/Predation grants you 4 seconds of Ardor/Relentless, making you immune to movement-impairment effects. Cut Jedi Commando/Sith Skirmisher Remove the following from Contemplation/Brooding: Reduces the cooldown of Awe/Intimidating Roar by 15 seconds. Add the following to Contemplation/Brooding: Exiting Combat reduces the active cooldown of Force Leap/Charge and Twin/Dual Sabre Throw by 100%. Possibly change Pulse/Strangulate: Reduces the cooldown of Force Stasis/Choke and Awe/Intimidating Roar by 15 seconds. Remove Debilitation/Overwhelm. Create a new Skillful utility, Nimble Strike/Ravager: Allows you to move while channeling Master Strike/Ravage. Possibly add Debilitate/Overwhelm to the Masterful tier to fill the hole. Remove Jedi Hospitaler/Sith Avenger. This still leaves us with missing Incisor/Interceptor. A thought was to simply add it to Reining Reach/Maiming Reach, but I wonder if that's pushing the power level of utility. There's also not re-adding Debilitate/Overwhelm, though I like the idea of giving people options for how they want to use the utility (and giving them the option of taking 2 utilities for "Uber-Master Strike/Ravage"). Also, we have a hole in the Heroic tier. I would like it to be something that has very obvious use for PvE, especially Ops, since most utilities seem PvP driven. That would mean a utility that isn't DCD-based, since in Ops, the Sent/Mara shouldn't be getting attacked. Bleeding into the tank role has already been explored and dismissed. That leaves...? Some kind of healing? A boost to their group buff? It could skew dps targets, but what about a utility that reduced the Depressed/Satiated debuffs from Inspiration/Bloodthirst by half (to 150 seconds). Get two Sents/Maras in a group, both taking that utility, and you have twice the Inspiration/Bloodthirst (which seems like the exact thing Bioware was trying to quell when they instituted Depressed/Satiated).

The only issue with this ability is it's on an 18 second cooldown, and if any ability persisted that reset the CD on TST, it could be much faster knockbacks. I guess if the knockback didn't knockdown, it wouldn't be busted.

I like this idea. Currently, I can't imagine why anyone would take Reigning/Maiming Reach and NOT take Just Pursuit/Inescapable. But this could be a reason to. As Crippling/Deadly Throw already has a 10 seconds snare, I think giving those abilities their own snare is the right route. So here's the new utility (I think the names Incisor/Interceptor sound better): Incisor/Interceptor: Increases the range of Crippling/Deadly Throw to 30 meters. Additionally, Force Leap/Charge, Force Melt/Rend, Clashing/Devastating Blast, and Zealous Leap/Obliterate snare the target, reducing its movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds. I just wish there wasn't the massive level discrepancy still in getting that second snare-ability. We could add Force Scream to the list, too...but that seems like it would favor Conc/Fury even more, and in the end, leaves Combat/Carnage with one less snaring ability than the other specs (though Watch/Anni uses Force Scream exactly never).

I did delete it. I felt it was fairly mediocre (and really, only taken due to the other Masterful utilities being even more bleh). It could make it back in, though. Where would you put it (Masterful still? Downgrade to Skillful?), and what would you cut? EDIT: And would you leave it as is? I see a little weird design with it: it does Force Leap/Charge for all 3 disciplines, but then Watch/Anni and Combat/Carnage don't get their second ability until level 57, whereas Conc/Fury gets their second ability at level 26 (which means they have it by the time they could take a Masterful utility at level 35).

Force Charge is a bit problematic, though, because it's also a resource builder, and part of the rotation for 2 specs (Watchman/Anni and Conc/Fury). It's been designed to be our opener, too, so quite often, we use that just to start engaging the enemy, meaning it's not ready to stay on target. As for needing a second 30m root, the 30m range a Masterful tier utility, and I tried to keep everything competitive so taking anything, including 30m root, isn't an auto-pick. But we're also talking two utilities still for the 30m root (still need the Heroic utility for the root), which some might consider too high a price. Really, the biggest problem with the 30m talent is: does anyone take it but NOT take Just Pursuit/Inescapable? Most often, I would too. But then, there's huttball, and being able to root is nice. That said, what gets broken if we can move and root? Currently, if me MS/Ravage: if they don't pop a root break or knockback, they eat the whole thing; if they do, they just countered the ability. If it's just move: knockbacks probably counter it (if we go far enough away we can't get back in range before the next strike, or if breaking 4m range ends the ability, even if you're between strikes) and a Speed boost counters it; otherwise, they eat the whole thing. Not much difference between the root and move in PvP, but a big difference in PvE, where bosses can't be rooted, but do move. If it's both: a rootbreaker or speed boost by itself doesn't counter it (but how many of those exist? what Consulars/Inquisitors DON'T take Egress/Emersion?), but a speed boost with a root breaker still counters it, as might a knockback. If it does both, stealth/camo still beats it, HtL/HO still beats it, Force Speed + Egress/Emersion still beats it, knockbacks probably still beat it, Tran/Pred still beats it. Stuns still beat it. Maybe I'm missing something, but getting both doesn't really seem to make it a ton more effective. It makes it more effective in PvE, and still gives us a 3-second root for huttball. In all other situations? Seems kinda the same.

Would this be too good as a Masterful? Jedi Commando/Sith Skirmisher: Activating Force Camouflage reduces the active cooldown on Force Leap/Charge and Twin/Dual Saber Throw by 100%. Additionally, exiting combat reduces the active cooldown on Force Leap/Charge, Twin/Dual Saber Throw, and Force Camouflage by 100%. I don't think the affects for Force Leap/Charge and TST/DST would be overpowered, mostly because (with my suggestions) they're just resource generators. TST/DST can be a heavy hitter for Watchman/Anni, but only once ever 18s, so refreshing it isn't super hotness (though it does mean you can use TST/DST initially to build focus/rage, then pop Force Camo once you get your proc to use it immediately, rotation permitting). As for exiting combat, it can be pretty good for PvP, but really, it just means you get to enter every fight with access to your resources, which isn't a power-level thing as much as a QoL thing. Getting stealth back for exiting combat, though...that one I'm unsure of. It does mean that whenever you go head to head with a Sent, they're going to have it off CD (though, with a 45s cooldown, that's probably the case anyway). It would also give the Sents/Maras a tad bit more mobility, because they enter every new fight with a root-breaker up (assuming they take the Heroic). Thoughts? Is refreshing Force Camo too good? Should it just be the two ways of refreshing resource generators? Should it be something else entirely?

Ok, so if I removed the taunts, that leaves Jedi Promulgator/Cloak of Annihilation weak for Heroic tier (so would need something added), and opens a slot at Masterful tier. I would actually fill that slot but moving Zealous Ward/Blood Ward into that tier, as that seems like the appropriate tier for its power level (though, at Skillful, it certainly helps those poor saps PvPing on their lowbie Sents ). Which could leave a hole in Skillful. I was trying to avoid doing straight clones from Guard/Juggs, but the new Unremitting/Unstoppable? Especially if Tran/Pred does not offer any MI immunity, it would be a way for them to get a few seconds of it. Or, leave Zealous Ward/Blood Ward in Skillful, and do a utility where activating Force Camouflage resets some vital CDs? Like Force Leap/Charge and/or Twin/Dual Saber Throw? As for giving Jedi Promulgator/Cloak of Annihilation something to make it worth a Heroic utility, maybe a Pacify/Obfuscate buff for a little force/tech damage debuff? It would seem to be less powerful to tack some kind of Force/Tech damage debuff to Pacify/Obfuscate than to tack a blanket damage debuff on Awe/Intimidating Roar, mostly because of the AoE-ness of Awe/Intimidating Roar. But based off your post, it seems like you would disagree. If so, why? Is it because Pacify/Obfuscate already has the ability to hose white damage to nil, whereas a small blanket damage debuff can't screw up rotations? What if Pacify/Obfuscate couldn't taunt anymore? Is it still too good? How did you feel about Zen Master/Berserker? That utility could get the whole group for 6% heal every ~30seconds (sooner with Valorous Call/Frenzy), which is about the same as the 20% off a big hit with Jedi Hospitaler/Sith Avenger, which happens every 45s at most.* *Using 40k hp in PvP gear, 6% is 2400 hp. A big hit for Combat/Carnage or Conc/Fury is in the 10-12k range (it can get bigger, but those aren't common), which at 20% would be around the same, maybe a little less. In PvE gear, the max health goes up, but so does damage dealt, leaving the heals about the same relative to each other...I think.

You really think people will pick it and misuse it? My thought was that, with those utilities, a Sent/Mara could briefly serve as off-tank. Briefly. They obviously wouldn't have tank gear, but they have some decent mitigation abilities, and someone speccing that would almost certainly take Undying/Enduring for 6 seconds of GbtF/UR. Out of curiosity for those that feel the taunts really can't be included, what kinds of utilities would you look for instead?

Not disagreeing, but why are taunts too much? The single target is triple the cooldown of actual single target taunts (and provides a way for Pacify/Obfuscate to actually reduce force/tech damage). The AoE taunt also has a longer CD (by 15 seconds), and as a Heroic utility, was a way to try and make sure Rebuke/Cloak of Pain gets something done (if they choose to wait it out so as not to refresh, they get taunted damage for 6 seconds). As for the healing, Watchman/Anni already does some group healing. Sith Avenger and Berserker were ways to augment that, should a group desire some extra healing. You say over the top, but why? Is it OP? Is it out of flavor? Currently, our utilities are a little bit of PvP utilities and then some mandatory class mechanic stuff. I was trying to make them offer actual utility to the class. What kind of effects would you go for instead (and it can't really be bonus damage, because that mucks with target dps)?

The access to taunts was a way to use utilities to, you know, actually get some utility. The taunts achieved were subpar, because we're not a tanking class. Balance involves nuance. I get the feeling you missed it. Leeching Strike was an example of something in the game that does better than my suggestion. And yes, I play light armor melee. Medium armor isn't a ton better. And the suggestion I had for a heal was less of a heal that's more difficult to use. You acted like self-healing for a Sent was the worst thing ever, which is weird, because almost every other AC has self-healing in some natural form.* *EDIT: an it's not like we're bringing anything to the battlefield that other specs aren't. But they sunder like a mofo. And they do have access to a group speed buff. One that they could conceivably have up 100% of the time. And what cooldowns are they missing that sents have? Outside of Inspiration for 10s every 5 minutes, what does a Sent bring that a Guardian doesn't bring? Buffs? I mostly just rearranged the utility tree so each tier has desirable picks. Outside of the taunts and heals (a more radical suggestion, sure), I introduced nothing new.* *EDIT: And a massive, across the board utility overhaul is 100% merited. Our utility trees are a nightmare, and are getting even more awkward with 3.2.1.

Nice ideas, too. The reset on Leap via Phantom/Force Fade caught my eye, though we lack the cool procs off Leap/Charge that Guards/Juggs get to make that really nice. As for 3-5 seconds of MI immunity, that's not bad, especially if the cooldown didn't come down. So end up with 25 second cooldown but get a few seconds of MI immunity. Seems like a decent/fair trade.

Because DPS Guards/Juggs, Shadows/Sins, VGs/PTs don't do that already? Without spending a utility on it? And do it more often? And it makes Sents obselete how? For a masterful and heroic utility? Compared to Guard/Jugg that gets to build focus/rage, rather than spend it? Let's play the Live vs. Suggestion game. Live: we spend 1 Heroic, and provide 80% speed boost, coupled with MI purge and 10% melee and ranged defense to whole team with around a 75% uptime. But, no Zen/Berserk for us. Suggested: we spend 3 utilities (skillful, masterful, and heroic) to give ONLY the speed boost to our allies (we still get MI purge and defenses) with an uptime max of 50%. But, we get to use Zen/Berserk. My suggestion: the predation is actually nerfed. But, we get to use Zen/Berserk. You taking all three utilities? Seems awkward. Especially in an Op because you'll taunt as you try to heal the tank...Even for PvP, if you took all three utilities you're talking about a single target taunt every 45s (rather than 15s), for an attack that heals for MAYBE 2400 health (12k crits are doable, but not reliable), and applies a debuff that's pretty piss-poor in the current PvP meta. What does Hatred do with JUST Leeching Strike, again? This costs utilities and is worse than that. But hey, open to all disciplines. Didn't actually touch Guarded* from what it currently is on Live...and gave Saber Ward a shorter cooldown, which isn't that much, especially since Guarded went up to 3 minutes. Other than that, made Zealous Ward more accessible, because it really isn't in PvP right now (gotta use all them Heroics just to stay on target). *EDIT: Sorry, Guarded is no different than PTS currently. 3.2.1 merges the two Guarded Heroic utilities. If you don't know the reasons here, then you haven't read ANY of the discussions around Sents/Maras (or even Guards/Juggs) that's been going on for a couple months. You know, haven't seen you in any of the Sent/Mara feedback threads on the PTS. You still play the class? Do you have any idea where the class is at currently?

This is a major update to the OP. I’m tired of tracking all the changes made, especially since so much has since been changed. This is also done after quite a bit more Sentinel/Marauder playing and testing of various utility layouts (I’ve been playing Combat/Carnage). And just to be upfront: I did not unequivocally add any kind of “usable while stunned” ability to either Force Camouflage or Guarded by the Force/Undying Rage, as I’m still unsure how necessary either of those is. Between an anti-focus ability on a 45s cooldown and one on a 3-minute cooldown, we have good anti-focus capabilities. Yes, stun-locking can be powerful on us, but that’s really only a problem in Solo Ranked, where you can’t rely on heals/peels. EDIT: In response to feedback, some abilities have been removed or changed. Some of the key changes in this overhaul are listed. This is current as of update 3.2.2 and post #108. Jedi Sentinel Sith Marauder This would polish up the base-class abilities and the utilities. After this, all that would have to be done is individual work on the disciplines themselves.

I get this every time I craft. Now, if only we could get full gathering and mission crew skill lists rather than the 5 random ones...

hmmm. they took the thread down for new Warzone ideas...

As someone who's been maining focus and rage since 3.0, I'm glad they dialed this back a bit. Full CC immunity was gonna be bonkers for us.