they are a late blooming class. It's been a know class "Achilles heel" since beta. Bio hasn't changed it yet, I doubt they'll change it any time soon. Biggest issue is they simply don't get their high damage skills until much later on. post 40 they are amazing. Soresu form with either a defense build or vengeance build is probably your best bet. outside of that I can't recommend as I don't play PvP in this game.

I agree. Coming from the perspective of a healer as well as a tank, I can stay alive even when being pummeled if i can HEAL. heal involves cast times (for the most part), and this game has no decay for interrupts like some others...which means that on bad strings of luck a healer being interrupted can literally be interrupted to death. but a healer that can cast can stay alive for long periods of time in this game. In this game, the top things that keep a healer from keeping their team alive is: 1) interrupted. even a single, weak mob that is in the corner can interrupt a healer and cause a group wipe. Most good healers will see a weak mob, and take it down and continue on...but if it's a silver +, at that point they are not healing the group and they are keeping themselves alive and killing mobs solo. not their job. 2) LoS...oh how much i hate LoS in this game. lots of it...and DPS and tanks need to realize when they are out of LoS of the healer. easier for the DPS/tank to do it then the healer...the healer has 4 people to worry about, each other player only has one (the healer). # 1 is the one within a tanks control for the most part. guard doesn't do me much good as a healer....the only time i ever pull aggro these days is when a tank or DPS doesn't pick up strays. that's it. with the rare exception of those horribad groups where im pumping out so much healing that I eventually pull aggro on anything the tank isn't directly attacking. and yes, I have had those

I agree. It's usefullness goes up a bit in PvP, but overall, just about every other class got something that is more universally beneficial. A defensive roll, and mini leap all in one. actually 2 variations of this, and both pretty nice. A snare that has heavy DoT damage, that increases the more the target moves. A reflective ability. deflect attacks back to attacker. nuff said. A cannon that you can fire when stunned, slept....whatever. A linear damage all ability (sort of like old Diablo 2 lightning bolt...fun stuff). Every single one of those has pretty universal and beneficial implications. some have more unique requirements (like lining up mobs for Twin saber throw), but overall they all are nice abilities that you can apply in just about every situation. then we get to the consular.... .....A bubble that you can't do anything in while you have it on, and a teleport ability that is stuck in one spot, and has a window of 2m max. interesting, but so limited I have a hard time seeing them as a solid high level ability. It sort of reminds me of the old style Apple Core utensils. you see one and your first thought is, "*** is that?" then someone uses it to core an apple and your like, "wow that's cool!" but...how many people do you know that regularly stock apple Core Utensils? yup....I don't know any either. and the consular AC 50+ abilities remind me of that. when you see it in the 2 situations it works, your like "NICE!" then outside of that your not sure what to do with it.....

Great comments Mas. Only thing ill point out (and not defending it, only pointing out that it was voiced), is that they GAVE a reason for doing it. Just not one everybody likes. The Class Dev specifically stated that the reason they simplified the spec was twofold : One, that they had never planned on shadow strike being so central to the specs rotation, and they realized that the talent was inappropriately powerful for a tier one talent, and two: that they wanted all the classes to conform to a more "generalized" balance of skill rotations per spec. IE they wanted it to be as easy as the others. Again, not my words...theirs. So feel free to like it or not, I'm not going to defend it. I liked the old design too. the new one isn't broke by far..but the old one was simply more interesting to play.

I too like TT more then Lightning, solely due to character stance during animation. in lightning, the toon is all hunkered over...they almost look constipated to me Whereas the TT stance is upright with a casual flick of the hand. I thought that if they had brought the character up a bit more in lightning, a more chest up position with arms in a relaxed outstretch "casting" position, it would look way cooler then the hunkered down, "I'm pushing as hard as i can !!! is it working" look they have now. Personal pref im sure there are those that like the look of being old and cane ridden (joke! well, partially...). Perhaps it was supposed to carry a slightly evil "ominous" look to it...the hunkered down ancient wizard hurling lightning. sorta reminds me of the emperor during Return of the jedi now that you think about it...of course, I prefer Darth's much more casual approach to flinging things around. the emperor looks evil, while darth looks like he is good at kicking a$&

I ignored it initialy when I got it...it seems very small. Until you get the talents that boost it's power, AND boost it's crit chance. Then you add in Prognisis,which halves the time it takes to cast it (thereby doubling the amount you actually heal with it...same amount, half the time...), and on top of that, each crit give you back 2 energy with patient studies. with my normal crit rating + the talent bonus, im over 50% crit on that. I can literally fill my energy bar from halfway with 2-3 Dx..and crits for me at 42 are just topping 200 per tick. it's not a group saving skill mind you...it's the healing PLUS the energy recuperation. I can burst heal my comp, get down to 25% energy, and spend the next few seconds using Dx to fill my energy bar right back up. it really fills that fast. and the healing isn't a life saver, but under lower damage conditions (your normal standard mob or most silvers) it can maintain your comps health for the most part. But your right...early on, until the talents start kicking in, it definitely is underwhelming. i didn't even start using it till my mid 20's, when the talents start making it worth it. your spot on with your approach. you have 2 big heals. use em when corso gets low, otherwise backblast, bleed, and allot of autoshot (think of it as a manually triggered DoT). At low levels, it's helpful to use blaster whip on CD, until you get medpack mastery in your high 20's it's the only way outside of kills and/or UM that you can trip UH. I play all 3 heal classes, and I find that the Scoundrel has the most energy management skills. but that's good, because they also use the most energy. with my Mercenary (commando), I can put out as much healing but only be at 20% heat or so (they build heat like you spend energy, just in the reverse direction). my sage has a vast force pool, but recovery isn't as fast. my scoundrels energy bobs up and down like a fishing pole with a saltwater trout on it. so energy recuperation is critical. Note on anatomy lessons. Honestly, until someone gives you a solid reason for having it in your leveling build, I'd skip it. there are far better talents in those tiers that you could benefit from NOW. fully specced, it's only 4 energy reduction on a skill you use every 45 seconds. from 10 energy to....6. oooooh big savings there. and tendon blast is 99% a PvP skill....i haven't used it ONCE on my PvE character. Compare that to the other two talents in that tier. one increases your Cunning (your main everything stat) by9%. thats allot. the other one reduces the cast time of the only 2 heals you have right now by half a second....thats huge. casting a 2.5 second UM feels like forever when your comp is being ganged up on. PLUS, it gives you your other source of UH outside of pistol whip. In all honesty, I think that is a skill that is there for those who are focusing more on DPS trees (they need all the energy savings they can get) and PvP. I've never taken it, and after combing the first 3 tiers of the tree, there are plenty other talents that help you far more.

It's not too bad to be a good healer. they key is to know your skills and how they impact the overall progress of the damage in a fight. One of the biggest abilities you have is Slow Release Medpack. But it is a HoT (heal over time), so it's greatest potential is wasted if you "wait" to apply it, unlike your bigger heals that have a cast time...those you want to give it a bit as if you cast them when the target is too full on health, your wasting heals. So get SRM off early...I like to just cast it if someon starts (or I expect them to start) taking damage. It's relatively cheap, and many of your later talent trigger off of it (like your upper hand charges). Diagnostic scan is also a big deal. with the appropriate talents, using Dx means you never run out of energy. if your standing around and picking your nose as a scoundrel healer, you should do one of three things: 1) if someone is taking damage, they should have an SRM on them. 2) if everyone has an SRM, and your energy is not 90%+, spam Dx scan 3) if your energy is capped, everyone has SRM, then hit something or blow something up. Intersperse Emergency med packs if you need a fast jolt to the healing (talent at lvl 30). Kolto pack if they are getting hit hard and you have the UH charges to spare (happens easily in this build once you get Medpac mastery). So overall, they key is to be Pro-active with the heals. recognize that downtime isn't downtime..it;s either throwing a bleed or backblast on a target, or using Dx Scane to catch up on minor heals AND recover energy (this is big), OR rolling SRM's on a target. The scoundrel is not a wait for damage then heal class. you realize that, and get proactive, and you will find the scoundrel to be an amazing healer. On the solo side: I currently run with this build: (level 44-45 ish). Hybrid Scrapper still has a few points left to go, and I'll prob pop them in the scrapper tree. I leveled up as sawbones until roughly 40. Picked the hybrid because i found myself with plenty of UH charges sitting around doing nothing when I was full sawbones. Comp is healed...don't need to spend it on EMP, so i ran up the scrapper tree to sucker punch so I could spam SP when things are looking happy. I run with Akkavi, and stuff dies sick fast with her smacking things with her staff, and me suckerpunching and backblasting away. Level up the sawbones tree first...I found this to be the most helpful early on when my skills and talents were minimal...the more healing I could do the better. In a group its a bit different...the extra healing from the full sawbones tree is definitely worth it. but solo it's much more fun to run a hybrid. stuff dies really fast with this and Akaavi as a comp. Oh yeah, and the caveat: I have no clue if this is Optimal, but it is effective. I tend to kill stuff faster with this hybrid and my comp with good gear then I do as a DPS spec with a healer comp. This will probably change when i get to 45+ and i can hit the capstones in the DPS trees, but I enjoy the hybrid. SRM and suckerpunch is just a fun and effective combo with a solid companion.

Haven't tried him yet. do you like him more? Personally, I've been running with Akaavi Since I got her, here damage is beast, and as long as i let her get off her AoE she usually holds plenty of aggro. But I wouldn't mind putting some of my str gear to use if Bowdaar is that good.

Which is where Corso comes in handy. turn on his AoE skills and he holds plenty of aggro. I've opened up with a ton of damage many times, and he pulls them right around. best way to level healer is to let your comp get aggro (either through the pull, or with a taunt skill), and get behind the targets so you can backblast to your hearts content. Cycle between some damaging skills and heals. once you get SRM it's gravy. send comp in, drop 2 packs on him, and go to town yourself. it also helps a ton to get your bleeds up early and often..lots of damage that ticks away while you are healing/kicking/shooting in the back or whatever.

For everyone who is running into issues with the cave being red and you can't enter...go back and read the whole thread. the cave is just south of another cave entrance that is a class quest area (bounty hunter). THE STORY AREA IS NOT THE RIGHT CAVE. south of that red cave is another one, that is not a story area, it's just a cave. The reason it's tough to find is its in a slight depression in the rocks. the way the rocks curve in you wont see the cave unless you have your magnifying glass out. if you are facing the Bounty Hunter cave, turn right and follow the outcropping of rock DIRECTLY south of it. right around this circular outcropping is the cave entrance. More of a crack really. It's easier to see it if you are coming up from the south. keep your eyes peeled...I think they made this one tough to find for kicks and giggles. To be honest, there are actually a total of 3 cave entrances in that same stretch of rock wall. the 3rd one is farther north and is the Consular story area. The coordinates have been posted multiple times in the thread, so you should have no problems finding the coords. just ignore the story caves along that same wall. trust me, it's there

I think the only downside to your comparison is two things: Customer expectations, and market competition. You're right about the taking away aspect...they specifically just said they wouldn't' do that. but I think the "all or nothing" approach to customization in the market is another shot in the foot. here's my bad but useable analogy: say you have two gas stations across from each other. they both charge 3$ a gallon for gas. both offer free window cleaning. the next week, gas station A begins to offer a free car wash with a fillup, people start to go to gas station A. Gas station B gets smart, and follows suit. now all the gas stations in the city are offering a free car wash with a fill up. suddenly a new gas station appears a block away. gas at 3$ a gallon. no free car wash. they're response is, "well, we never promised a free car wash." now, realistically, if everyone in the town was filling up their cars every time they went to the gas station, do you think that the new station would lose customers? usually yes. why? because there are a half dozen gas stations nearby that offer a car wash. would they say that the new station is horribad, or sucks? no. you will just notice over time that the new station loses customers. even if not every customer wants a car wash, enough will...and it's free. there's no agreement that they should get one, and the gas is what they are paying for, so all the stations are meeting the expectation that they are getting gas. but the new station still loses customers. the point of my comparison (if you don't like it) is that a market builds an expectation based on what the industry offers. many MMO's offer small conveniences like hairstyles, color changes, etc. are offered for measly amount of in game currency. measly enough that its almost not even noticeable. there is a prevalent market standard that these small kinds of things should be a part of the game. Not all games do it, but many do. people begin to expect these things. So what should a company do? they certainly could just stand their ground, and nickle and dime for small things. or they could get smart, and offer small things for free, but appeal to those who want faster and more global results with the shop. here's a comparison of two situations. situation one is what they are doing, and IMO is going to negatively impact the game. Situation two is where instead, they offer the basic small cosmetic changes as freebies (or extremely low in game currency...like 50-100 creds as an example). these would include hair changes, skin tone changes, etc. larger changes (race, sex are the two big ones) would be sing unlocks that could be purchased in the store or from the GMT (when people offer them). Cathars the same. unlock via market or GMT. the second idea in all honesty will probably net them just as much incoming cash, and satisfy ALLOT more people. I know this because I've seen this approach in other games. I think they underestimate the amount of people that would sill take the paid option. and the smaller freebies will attract many people to the idea of customization, and possibly whet their appetites for bigger changes. Color dyes im not really worried as much about..but I think they could still go the option of a bit for "free" and more for money. They can simply offer certain dyes in game achievable by various means. random drops, crafted, fraction rewards, etc. more detailed/rare/advanced colors could be offered by the market (or offer all of them by the market). that way people can buy them, or find them, or a combo of the two. Overall, I think they'll get more from the players with this ramped approach in customization.

All that work into something boring... Im sorry for you. hope your life gets more interesting. I tend to play game i find exciting, not boring.

Yes....but it's an animation you use ALLOT. enough that I have it out every fight. multiple times. Its often enough that it's enjoyable, but you don't get burnt out on it Plus you get to kick mobs in the nuts. allot. and you get to punch them when they're not looking. a few times if you can sneak it in. and shoot em a few times. kick em again...and laugh when they hop up off the ground a bit before they collapse in a heap clutching their....um lightsaber. Honestly, its probably the most enjoyable class I've played so far (play them all) in relation to animations, and story (and comments too...smuggler has some really great one liners), but skill wise they mirror the Op in what the skills DO. but they are more enjoyable IMO on the smuggler. If you want a flexible and interesting build you should try a hybrid....just enough points in the sawbones tree to get Slow -release medpac, then work up to sucker punch in the scrapper tree. interesting and fun build.

I enjoy the Op story allot. But I've found (played almost all the classes so far), that Story enjoyment is also a very personal thing. you will pick up aspects of a story that feel better to you, or you enjoy more. As an example, I enjoyed the consular storyline, which many think to be one of the worst in the game. I liked it allot. I also enjoy the Operative story, more then the BH...I liked the BH, but it didn't hit me as much overall as the Op story (quite a few "woah" moments in the Op story). So far my favorite overall is the smuggler story. i love the combo of the treasure hunt + smuggler side jobs + the attitude of the smuggler is fantastic. very fun. I think second for me would be Operative, and then the warrior/consular are tied. I think most of the details about the differences in AC's have been covered though...not much to add to that. both are great classes, just depends on what you want to play. The biggest impact for me was the turret/vs. stealth mobility. the sniper is just too much stay in one place shoot stuff. I couldn't get into the concept of having to drop a shield every time i want to shoot something. but the balance of mobility, melee, ranged, and stealth with the Op made it fun for me. that was my choice of cookies.

A few more points of thought on the two: Operatives employ a mix of melee and ranged fighting (leaning heavily towards the melee aspect), while the Sniper is very much a ranged class (though they do have some melee abilites...but they are mostly emergency use things). Snipers spend most their time hidden behind a shield, and use allot of skills with cast timers. Operatives have more instant abilities, and more freedom of movement, but they also deal with more close range damage as a result. Ops damage is better now in 2.0 then it was previously, but snipers are still one of the top DPS. pick your poison. both are good enough to fill whatever slot they need in a group and do it well.

keep up the posts OP. so far so good. the crafting thing is really getting on my nerves.

This is turning into a real nice discussion on threat. which is a good thing. I think you may be right on the mechanics grall (any relation to graalx from Lotro? ). although, technically, if you have threat, your probably going to be top on the table. even if that wild DPS is only one point behind you, he's still one point behind. either way, its not always your threat level, which is a good thing. trip the taunt, and your 30% ahead of the rest. I can see the logic behind not using it all the time as part of your regular rotation. but I find it beneficial for using outside of the emergency only option quite a bit. the biggest reason is it's a percentage. which NO other skill gets. all skills are a finite value threat, but your taunt is 30% of current threat regardless of it's level. so if the threat table is at 10k when you hit it, you get 3k threat. if its at 100k, you get 30k threat. Very nice skill to have. I guess it boils down to personal preference, but in reality Im not plugging it on CD. Ill usually base it on the groups and how they work out. If i have some DPS that seem to be very "excitable", ill hold out on it. if a specific DPS has a tendency to pull aggro, i may wait initially. or i may let that DPS pull threat on a mob while i build threat on another mob, then yank from him for that 30% bonus.

FYI to all readers, This thread was a year ago. prior to 2.0, immortal tree was probably one of the worst built trees in the game. 2.0 is much better, and a night and day difference, so you need to take everything here with a grain of salt. most of these posts were even before 1.2 (the big post-release patch). Immortal is a very smooth spec right now. Leveling a new guard as immortal with HK as my comp, and doing quite well. Vigilance/Vengeance is also very good. It was good even prior to 2.0...my first Juggernaut was Vengeance, and I soloed more then a few champion mobs on my way to 50 in full Vengeance with quinn. Both quite viable leveling specs. aaaaannnnnd....Necro alert! It was a nice discussion though.

unlocks and gear sets. I hate having to work my way through (what I consider) silly looking gear. I like getting a nice set from level 1 and outfitting with mods so my jedi/sith can look like I think they should. and lots of unlocks for my horde of alts.

I agree. I would love to see the ability to separate buffs/debuffs to a separate bar. no matter how big i make them, they are still tied to my character portrait, which I often prefer in a separate location. that would be a BIG one for me. also I would love to see the ability to change the shape of current items. like making my health bar on my character shorter...or perhaps a bit fatter so blind old eyes like mine can see the numbers on the bar without making the entire bar half the size of my screen. Generally, a bit more adjustment with current fields would be great.

Your sort of correct. Read the whole post btw. But in essence, it's only the FIRST planet where you skip the comms, I have 3 toons I've started leveling since 2.0. two of them are in their late 20's, one in the 30's. other then the starter planet, I've had plenty of comms to gear up once I hit a new planet. the only time I ran out of comms is when i switched companions, and ended up gearing up two on the same planet. So once your past the initial planet, your golden. So I think a good thing to do would be to up the comms you get from the starter planet, or provide a solid 20 comm reward for leaving said starter planet. or give the BT/Esselles run a comms boost, that way you can step off the fleet onto Dromund or Coruscant with enough comms to pick up a few things. Other then that your ahead of the curve for the rest. I was always frustrated with the previous system...it really locked you in, and I always had dozens of comms for each planet left over because they were useless. now im running out of comms cause Im buying so much STUFF. it's great.

Deleted my origional post, realized im just repeating the same thing i've said in a few threads. we have way too many threads getting hijacked by the "cathers need to be free" crowd. I will not feed that cycle....let's keep it to a few threads folks, no reason to derail an excellent post by the OP. OP : + 1 on your comment man. been wanting these customizations for a long time to, and have been saving a few classes to level as a cather. should they be part of the base package? I think so. but Im just happy there here. Who says that they won't be free/severely reduced in the future?

I Politely disagree OP. I have been playing allot since 2.0, and have yet to get any of my 5 lvl 50's to cap. having too much fun on new toons with the new class changes. rolling repub now instead of empire. enjoying the change of pace from raiding prior to 2.0. Been playing since early release, still enjoying it. 2.1 doesn't need more content. its perfectly fine as it is. I've been waiting for these customization options for a very long time. looking forward to rerolling a cathar on imp side and repub side (yeah, im not going to switch over any lvl 50 toons, it's a good reason to try out some of the repub classes i haven't tried yet). Lots of stuff going on in the game. sorry to hear that you don't enjoy the same things I do...but that's what happens. you got your content with Makeb. well get some more soon as well, just doesn't need to be 2.1.

If you rely on others to determine what makes you happy, you will always end up sad. If you rely on DPS numbers to determine how much you enjoy a class, then In an MMO you will always be dissatisfied. and I can guarantee you that the "pecking order" of those classes will change in the next class update. always does. No class at this moment does so little DPS that they cannot fill a DPS role in 98% of the game. So unless you are running bleeding edge content (this game doesn't have any btw), then there's no class that can't play a role it was designed for. this is a reality that some ignorant players don't share, but it doesn't impact that reality whatsoever. Play what you like, and you will be happier for it. I have played a Juggernaut since early release, and have delt with more then my share of ignorant viewpoints, and rejections from raids because they felt that the class wasn't up to snuff. to this day it is still my favorite class to play, and ironically our DPS is quite good right now. but this never impacted my enjoyment of the class, nor my overall enjoyment of the game. Doh....sry. in response to your initial question, I agree with the idea of playing all up to lvl 11 or even higher ( I prefer lvl 20 so can see how a class/spec plays out) to see which one you like the most. if you enjoy the process of leveling them, then you aren't wasting your time. I actually find leveling a new character very refreshing. I never get tired of the starter planets, and gaining a level every 10 minutes is a nice change of pace when you just spent half a day grinding a high level toon only to gain one level. yes, I have altitis. I am not ashamed. but seriously...try a few in the teens. if they don't pan out, then you have lots of storage space now and some extra crafting alts.

I think the issue with the cathar is that prior to f2p even being on the table (at least for us as players), cather was discussed as coming in the game. It was naturally assumed that it would either be: 1) part of an XP, or 2) added to an update (in sub games those are usually free) and then 80% of what they were saying and how they said it changed with f2p. and many woke up the next morning with their butt sore and their cellphone and stereo gone from the room (I'm pretty sure she was a girl...). It isn't about contracts or promises...it's about interactive discussions and Bio not living up to them. Not completely their fault...at that time, they were discussing what they thought the model was...and it changed. I work for a big business, and let me tell ya...that happens allot. new manager comes in, and everything you did before changes cause it's HIS way now. I feel misled by the decision with the cathar. I know that logically I can find a reason why the cartel market option fits and makes sense. I can also understand why they are doing it this way...but I still feel like i woke up and something is missing. That's what happens when you walk into a situation expecting one thing and eventually getting another. and we can discuss all we want about whats promised or not...if players feel jilted...well, they leave. there are certain companies that I do not buy from, simply because they're products suck. they may LOOK like the products from other companies, but they are cheaper and fall apart when i get them. so they don't get my business. So far, im not leaving because of the cathar. I feel a bit slighted, but I realize that if any promises were made, they were midnight promises, and I woke up to the next morning was a different story. if I don't like the story, I'll kick them out of the house. plain and simple. so far they can stay in da house.