Xcore
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Posts posted by Xcore
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Xcore originally went all out and with vigor attacked the HERO engine. He was sure the delay issue was not fixable because it was inherent to the HERO engine. In fact he went on to say that he had had-enough and was unsubbing. The last patch change is mind of course. The problem is not inherent to the game engine. Those of us that know gaming and know this engine knew it was not a problem with HERO. You see that's my problem. He started out attacking the game engine and was stating his opinion as a fact like he was an expert. It was never a fact and he is far from an expert on the HERO gaming engine.
Bioware has never helped us understand the problem, since Thread 1 we've tried to evolve our understanding of the issue and the Hero Engine was an obvious point of discussion, at the time it was a very attractive target as well due to "correct" logical conclusions...
However, IF YOU WOULD'VE SEEN THE VIDEO I CREATED, within 3 minutes I state that it is not in fact the Hero Engine. This means, I have "evolved" my understanding and adapted my claims to suit the "truth"... something you are incapable of...
Yes your client and game does follow the exact same issues, yes you are incapable of recognizing them... this is quite the fact btw
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Im not trying to attack you...Im really not. You are frustrating to no end -- to that I can admit. But it is a bit annoying when people throw there opinions around like they are facts. You have stated very, very few facts in your threads. You make huge leaps in logic to come up with illogical conclusions. I will admit you have spent an enormous amount of time on this "project" and have convinced a few people of your point of view. All im saying is understand that just because you believe something to be all inclusive, and factual, it isn't. You have the right to you opnion, and I do respect that right.
I m heading back in the game now. I need to hit level 50 to see if I can notice your delay. I'll be back later.
Take care.
lol you continue to claim flaws in logic but fail to understand yourself that a "claim to a flaw" is completely irrelevant without any deconstruction or showcasing proof...
I've showcased everything I claimed in both Video and through the help of the community... there is simply no flaw in my logic or my claims here.
When I state an opinion I say so, when I state a fact I do so with provided evidence as well as/or backup through logic....
Once again, you have "zero" supporters here for a reason, you should really re-evaluate your standpoint... for your own sake. Every single person following the threadline can see your quite obviously and blatant vendetta here...
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The only thing you need to understand Xcore, once again, is that your opinion is not fact. That's waht all this about. For some reason you have placed yourself on this pedastal and I do believe you really think that your opinions are facts just because you wish them to be. All i'm saying is that your opinion is opinion. You have the right to state your opinion. I have the right to not agree with your opinion.
Your arrogance will prove a crutch when you grow up and the real world starts slapping you around.
Your reply makes no sense... I have not stated anything as a fact in what you quoted... also, you continue to attack me personally, "when you grow up"?
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lol. This is exactly what I expected from you my friend. One thing I will say about you: You do not dissapoint.
Edit: Please don't compare "eSports" with real life Team Sports of any kind. Please...please...do not go there.
You continue to dig your hole and prove your lack of understanding... I don't know why you do it. Do you not see that not a single person really has sprung up in your support? There is a reason for this...
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You have established nothing, other than proving you have not played at any competitive level of any real sport. If you had, you would have understood the statements.
Roger Federer could play a High School Tennis player in a blizzard, on a flooded court, with a broken raquet and still put up a 6-0, 6-0, 6-0 easily without effort. Again, the blizzard didnt make the lesser player somehow magically better.
The New England Patriots could play any college team and beat them 80 to nothing during a black-out, tornado speed winds, and a flat football. The environment did not suddenly make the college team better, not did it make them competitive.
The Los Angeles Lakers could play Duke and beat them 160-20 on a muddy court, a broke rim, and kobe in a body cast. Again, no amount of "conditions" are going to make Duke more competitive.
Sorry, I can't relate to your soccer analogy. I'm talking about sports here. My wife and daughter play soccer.
This post is all I really need to showcase your lack of comprehension on the topic of "competition". Thank you, you are wrong on every single point... and truly anyone with a slight amount of knowledge in regards to sports of any kind, including eSports will attest to that.
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Uh yeah that makes no sense unless EJ moderation has changed over the past year. They used to be quick to ban and sometimes they would ban people over retarded stuff. If I remember correctly Starfreak from <Cuties Only> got perma banned during Wrath in a Frost theory crafting thread (he was setting the top frost parses).
This is correct and yes EJ as well as TeamLiquid is pretty funny in that way.
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lol....
(?)
Indeed Mr. Competitive Athlete, EJ Contributor.... lol
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This last statement, by itself, is almost the pure definition of an equal playing field. Not sure the point you are making, however, the first part of the first sentence is certaintly not false.
I should hit 50 tonight or early tomorrow. Once I do, I'll post and let you know if I am seing the issue at 50. It is possible that the issue starts at level 50, which would explain why I haven't seen it through the first 49 levels.
1) Not everyone is capable of experiencing the same issues, taking a survey in this thread from the beginning it has been established that "better" or "more advanced" players experience/notice/perceive it more as they are more attuned to precision and fast paced/competitive play.
Please step forward and name me (with proof) Top100 Raiders, Gladiator or multi-Gladiator PvPers, Professional/Tournament Players from: CS:S, Quake, WC3, WoW, LoL...
Within this threadline, we've had all of the above with prove credentials (links to facebook/clan sites/profiles etc.)
2) You did not comprehend my point there, that is ok...
3) You are not a competitive athlete, you do not disprove my logic by stating that you are a "competitive athlete" and my logic is flawed... thats not how it works...
4) No, "regardless of condition a better player will always defeat a bad player" is not true because as I've logically stated one can easily artificially bring down better players while elevating bad players.
This is an everyday topic in "sports", I am shocked that as a "competitive athlete" you do not realize this very simple and "correct" logic. Once again to re-iterate, Barcelona vs. Wigan... pretty big difference, however one can marginalize this difference if they play on an uneven "hill" with garbage cans for goalposts and mud instead of grass.
5) You do not know my "real world competitive experience" please don't claim to do so. The environment matters 100% in competitive "anything". This goes from "Chess" all the way to "Football" and also eSports/Gaming.
The SkillCap is not "slightly" changed but is affected greatly...
6) You are unable to experience the issue because your playstyle is likely not affected by it, this is why "most people" do not experience it, because "most people" are clickers and casual players who something like this would not bother.
The last statement does not in fact mean that at all... you're not comprehending and that is ok Klarick.
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I will considor releasing my EJ name. However, in all honesty I am hesitant. I don't need to bring your attitude and failed logic to the good folks at Elitist Jerks. I have a bit of a good rep there on the warrior and mage threads, I don't think I wish to have you trolling me there. I doubt they would put up with it for more than about a minute, but I'm not taking the chance at this time.
I think it best to leave SWTOR "friends" on SWTOR.
lol....
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Funny, I have been a regular contributor to Elitist Jerks for a few years now. Love the site.
Can you provide us with links to your contributions and profile? I played with <Serious Casual> on Mal'Ganis for a year in early WotLK, I'm sure you know their affiliation to EJ. I wonder if I recognize you from there...
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I agree. Animations still need a lot of work. I was just demonstrating that animations are prioritized over ability execution in this case.
I think a lot of the residual clunky feeling at this point is the result of poor animation/SCT/sound feedback to the player.
Yes, but I am actually quite confident that although laborious, its easier to address. Animations/Sound and Effect Sync needs to be perfect to avoid the weird bad feeling that contributes to unresponsivness.
I really want to emphasize what you mention here, SCT (Combat Text), currently it Is sometimes way off (especially on channeled abilities and rotations). This is an important fact to the feeling, of must be precise... please note In my video how incredibly precise WoW is in terms of Animation/Sound amd Effect Sync as well as SCT accuracy... (especially noticeable in the rotations parts with mage, hunter).
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I agree BW should clear it up and tell me i'm wrong or you're partially right or whatever regarding what's intended for their animation "cinematic" combat which I like.
But you did it again. You ascribed things to me that i never said. You're equating my position on animation lock with me being ok with lag, delay, black and white colors you said? ok...
You do that sometimes. It is your opinion that twitch and only twitch can be competitive or the most competetive. That's an opinion, not a fact as you so often claim. I don't know how else to say it to you. I know you will disagree.
Lag, inpout delay, syncing animations to cast bars etc... all must be cleaned up, but animation lock for abilities does not fall into those categories. And some of the animations can be broken out of by moving if you want.
Once again, I guess i'll leave it at that.
No, don't get me wrong I agree 100% that the sync issues, input or execution delay etc. are completely separate from animations locking the avatar down...
But I disagree that animation lockdown or animation > player Input is a system that can offer competitive play. My reasoning behind listing the black/white, screen blackout, delay, lockdown all together Is to showcase that although completely different issues, they all are flaws in supporting competitive gameplay in an MMO and just because "all players" suffer these, it does not make It equal...
As i continue to explain further in my previous post, just like a screen blackout every 10 sec or just being able to se in black/white or everyone having 2000 ping or input delay etc. etc. these issues, drag down better players artificially and elevate lesser players artificially as the skillcap is reduced severly.
This is why I am against animation lockdown and prioritization... it doesn't equally affect good amd bad players even if both type of players have to deal with It. Furthermore it lowers the SkillCap In PvP and PvE for that matter.
I love SW:TOR animations and wish they could make it as smooth as WoW while keeping superior animations but of any such choice "ever" has to be made, gameplay should always win because gameplay is the basis of potential for everything that follows... while animations after a while are meaningless.
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That type of system, animation locking, can certainly support competitve play as long as the rules apply to all players consistently and everyone understands those rules going in. And, yes, I think interrupts are the exception to this in that they should always fire when needed. It may be slower paced and less twitchy (not intended as a negative), and that may make it a game that doesn't suit your tastes and that's fine, but that's about where it ends.
A good example is the smuggler video that is in the OP, not sure if it's still there. The whole charged burst > thermal grenade issue if I remember correctly....maybe someone else just brought it up as an example elsewhere. Anyway, It was posted as an example of how the game is broken because you have to wait for CB to finish its animation before a thermal grenade can be thrown. I'm not so sure that's unintended. Maybe it is, but it seems like a good example of a different style of play rather than something that is broken. Thermal grenade isn't an interrupt, so why should it interrupt CB? you've commited to CB, so see it through. Some don't like it though and that's their opinion.
A big problem arises if the gameplay design intent isn't communicated clearly for players to understand before they go into the game. Because they WILL be coming in with preconceived notions of how things should be and be royally pissed and call your system broken when they find out it's different.
The only reason I made this post was because I think the waters are getting a bit muddied again by lumping legitimate delay issues that need to be addressed in with "possibly" intended game mechanics(animation lock that some don't like) and calling the whole thing broken. When in reality, half of the criticism is true and needs to addressed, but the other half is pure opinion spewed out as fact.
Firstly, why doesn't a Bioware employee clear these things up and tell us what system Is really Intended?
Secondly, I disagree, a system where you are "locked" up because of animation cannot be competitive in an MMO environment on the levels that a system such as WoW can be.
Just because both parties lag, are locked up, cannot see colors but only black and white... the screen goes black for 3 sec every 10 sec or whatever else... does not make It equal and able to be competitive.
You need to understand that In a system where everyone lags or abilities are delayed or people are unable to perform actions because they're locked into an animation... it lowers the overall skill cap amd Introduces frustration and RNG factors.
In this type of environment, a bad player and an amazing player are very close together in terms of potential. In a system that is 100% responsive to input without limitations and everything is smooth, a bad player has no hope against an amazing player, thus WoW is able to introduce MMOs to eSports and no other MMO can.
Just because everyone has to deal with the same flaws in the system does not make It so that its an even playingfield. The better players are artificially brought down by a slow, unreliable, unresponsive system while at the same time this benefits and elevates players who are not so good.
The issue discussed here is on many levels damaging, one is the potential for complexity In PvE Endgame, one is the SkillCap in PvP amd yet another is the feeling of connection and immersion In RP... everything is affected by this foundation of Avatar Responsiveness and Gameplay Feel.
Saying that its all good as long as the system is equal for everyone is false and does not go deep enough into all areas of repercussions.
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Georg has acknowledged the issue exists. And he has credited the input, feedback, and videos for nailing down the problem. Where do you think that came from? It came from this thread.
All you have done in this thread is attack Xcore. It's not helpful and you're just trolling this thread. You should just stop reading it if you have no problem.
I'm glad the people that have helped get this problem recognized haven't given up.
Never giving up because like you, I love SW:TOR too much and want It to be my home for years and years. If all goes well it'll be the biggest MMO within 3 years or so.
I'll see Klarick in Thread 9 or 11 or 100 again gladly if that is what it takes to make SW:TOR as amazing as it has the potential to be
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Yes it is if you want how wow does it. Damage is applied completely detached from any animation. They also do not have a unique animation per ability.
You damage before you throw the punch.
Yes and this Is how SW:TOR works, is trying to work but failing a bit... The Grenade does its damage before it hits example.... etc.
I wish people would realize that SW:TOR is not trying anything fancy new in terms of combat, it is exactly WoW combat... only due to some developer inexperience and still trying to work things out AND the attempt to make combat look a bit better through more elaborate animations it failed a little... and Is being corrected to be more "fun" as is widely being reported already (more fixes needed and coming though)
WoWs animations are rather simplistic and crappy, also same animations for many spells and abilities. However, WoWs combat is amazingly responsive AND they mask the "ugly" animations through elaborate particle effects and sparkles etc.
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I was reading another thread and got to thinking the cause of the ability delay. And it somehow seems convenient that Bioware has made strategy roleplaying games and in those games the responsiveness doesn't have to be as instant as in any modern mmo or a fps and so we have some kind of clunky system here...
Yes, that is obviously the logical conclusion... For the same reason I can comfortably guarantee that Project Titan will feel just as responsive as WoW or even moreso...
It's ok to make mistakes for Bioware in their first MMO and perhaps first game that fosters serious, competitive levels of PvP... as long as they are able and willing to correct and change based on more experienced people/players feedback and suggestions.
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Pretty much this...
Tho, if they want keep animations. Give instant abilities a cast time (duration of the animation) and make them "castable" while runing. That should fix it.
keep all animations and people just learn to play with "instants" with 0,5 secs cast and 1 sec etc
Keep the GCD for the REAL instant abilities, if theres any.
This imo would be a terrible system for an action based MMO... It takes away speed, reflex and reaction times... clutch twitch reactions. I think the combat system itself (based on GCD not animations) is the reason WoW has had such a success in precision and competitive PvP such as MLG Tournaments etc.
But also i think the combat system being as described above is generally a more successful one for MMOs. I think greater immediate control is important, I would never be happy being "locked", as in because im "casting x ability" I cannot move for .5 seconds etc.
This just leads to a feeling of disconnect from my Avatar to the point that I feel like I am "playing" or "directing" my Avatar instead of "being" him/her. I think people need to realize this entire topic, OP and threadline is essentially about the feeling of absolute and seamless connection to the avatar.
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There you go Xcore, I fixed your statement for you.
Level 49 Marauder here. Still no delay or clunky feeling at all. In my opinion, the game runs great, and very responsive. I do hope they clear up your issue. I sincerly do. I want you guys to experience SWTOR just like the rest of us.
Welcome back Klarick, it isn't actually an opinion that a car with an Input delay and pulling to the left feels sluggish and unresponsive... sorry.
You've been away for a little while, please go back a few pages and reply to my posts picking them apart as they are not only full of logical fallacies but I also (painfully clearly) have a personal agenda to be popular and simply refuse to give up my 15 minutes of fame.
Also, I am a troll (as you no doubt already know)... All of this was a huge troll mission lol! There never was anything wrong with SW:TOR... There Is no such thing as "Ability Delay", SW:TOR was always far more responsive and felt far better than WoW.
Through your unwavering, righteous justice. Klarick, you have brought me down... exposed me for the fraud that I am... I thank you, for now I am at peace.
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I should note that channeled abilities have a very clunky feel to it, the ticks are not reliably displayed to the castbar. At times the damage or healing appears halfway through the channel while sometimes the same ability works fine... Unreliable.
The ticks are also not displaying evenly apart. I'm not convinced that they happen either, wish we had a timestamping combat log....
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This problem is not universal. I made videos WEEKS ago on my Sith sorc showing force lightning doing damage to a target before the lightning strike animation finished, and it still does work that way. In fact, it does several ticks before the animation even starts.
As you can see, this was a few weeks ago, before yesterday's fix was even live. I think you're having a problem I'm not, or you're confusing animations with damage.
Thats bad, its shows a lack of animation sync... It gives of a clunky feeling...
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I honestly think part of the problem is that high-end competitive WoW players are expecting the same feel from TOR rather than being willing to learn a new system with new rules. I briefly played WoW but never really got into it... the MMO I mainly played was City of Heroes. So while WoW players are complaining about sluggish combat response I'm actually finding it amazingly responsive... in CoH every attack roots you for the full 1-3+ second animation. There's no such thing as an instant attack or an attack that can be used while moving. There's no such thing as an interrupt or positional attack. Even most melee attacks take a second and a half or more to animate, and they don't do any damage until the animation finishes (at which time they do hit, even if the target has run 50 yards away and ducked behind a wall during the animation). That doesn't make CoH a bad game... it's actually very fun. It's just a completely different playstyle than WoW.
So what if, by design, "instant" attacks in ToR are supposed to actually wait for the animation to play before affecting the target? That doesn't mean it's a bad game, it just means you adapt your playstyle to account for the fact that when you stun someone you aren't actually going to stun them for a quarter second or so and you won't be able to move around for a quarter second after that. As long as the total animation delay is shorter than the GCD it won't affect when your next ability goes off at all, it will just change the "feel" of combat from "I magically kicked him in a single microsecond and am instantly back on my feet" to "I start to throw a kick, it connects 0.2 seconds later, and then 0.3 seconds after that I regain my balance and can run around". Frankly, the second option seems far more realistic to me, since even "instant" abilities should take a small amount of time.
All of that means its a bad game... the basis cannot support competitive play but more importantly it can never have the same complexity in PvE, PvP or even RP as a fully responsive system such as WoW.
I am sorry to say, but you have outlined the reason why games such as CoH/V have not attained the status that WoW has but in fact have always remained "niche"..
Please do not argue that an unresponsive and sluggish/slow/imprecise system is one to adapt to. This is a flaw, not a feature...
in SuperMario, if Mario has an animation to complete which prevents him from "jumping", the gaming industry would not look as it does today...
I'm not sure what to really say to you, I realize you have most of your experience with CoH/V and not WoW (and that is perfectly, 100% fine...) in fact, it is completely fine that you prefer CoH/V to WoW but you must simply admit that a system such as that can never be the basis of a game that is on the level of WoW's success...
A successful game "must" be fully responsive... 100%, no if, but, when, how... no matter what animation, sound, graphics etc etc... 100% responsiveness to input from player is a must to feel connected to your avatar and to feel in full control.
This is the foundational basis of all "higher level" or "competitive" play but also a subconcious level of satisfaction from simply "walking around in an Inn RPing" through "World First Killing a Boss" to "$100,000 Game Tournament Final in 3v3".
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The interviewer can asks what he wants and the developer could say what he wants, that still does not mean that this interview is going to be allowed to be published.
That is why you have preconditions and agreements preventing blocks
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I should say, though I may seem to be very negative and certainly very critical but that is simply because I am very honest naturally and try to be as objective as possible, always....
I do like Gabe quite a lot and think he's very competent, someone who I think I could have a very interesting conversation with (and would love to).
So Gabe, does a good job nonetheless here...
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1. TB doesn't really play swtor.
2. He is not going to ask question that he know he will not get answers to. Also it is a bad idea to piss off people that you are interviewing.
On the second point, the fear of upsetting the person you interview is the hallmark of a bad interviewer imo. This severely limits the interviewers potential to ask tough, substance rich and interesting questions.
Because of this, the interview felt more like just another PR stunt, Bioware circle ****.
Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)
in General Discussion
Posted
Though I already know what to expect from that link... and Klarick for that matter (wish the moderation of the forums would too but oh well). The link doesn't work for me. I get this message:
Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms.