In the TNG Episode "All Good Things..." the NCC 1701-E could go to Warp 15 as stated by Captain Riker.

That isn't how force works. You really need to understand how things work before you state that. There is a huge difference between impact and electricity. A lightning bolt isn't going to have the same impact force as a swinging log. This comes down to a physics equation of momentum = mass x velocity. This is why people, in real life, can survive a lightning strike without getting splattered into paste but yet a falling log will flatten them. Don't make statements that show you don't understand how physics applies to things when you are trying to argue physics.

WRONG! Star Wars canon states that technical filming issues are not considered canon unless there is a direct canonical statement in the film. This was covered by Leland Chee more than once. There are always certain technological flaws in something, for example: Speeders aren't translucent, though in Episode V you can see through the frame of the ship during the pilot's eye view sequences. A stormtrooper's armor cracking when he falls down, that is a technological glitch. Things that you are using to justify your argument are simply debunked. Star Wars is pretty smart about this. The tech manuals are 100% correct their numbers are correct. The only way there is a canon conflict is if you can prove that someone was shooting on the highest setting. Your argument of, "Well the hull didn't buckle!" only proves that Star Wars hulls can take forces up to the amount being tossed out. You also have to take into consideration that physics doesn't work the same way in Star Wars, as in literally in Star Wars there is sound in space. As for Trek tech's canon rules... There is no Trek canon. Literally. They don't even bother to try. As they have said, their technology can do whatever the writer needs them to do. That is why, if you watch the series, there are about a million things which can be solved by "Reversing the polarity of the main deflector array" because Star Trek tech is straight up magic. One episode they can fly through a star unharmed.... The next episode the hull can't take the heat from a plasma spike (which is far less than the star, I promise you)... The next episode they are shrugging off laser beams and laughing about it... The next episode a laser carves a chunk of the Enterprise out so it can study it and the crew (Happens in Encounter at Farpoint)... Star Trek tech is the most unscientific and inconsistent tech in Science Fiction.

Uh huh... Again... A normal rock... Thrown by a normal human... Can shatter the hull armor of a Star Trek ship. You keep ignoring that. If you really want to nit pick... I already said I was game. We use the numbers, or you admit that by the numbers Trek loses and that in your "What if" universe, Trek wins.

Yes I said Alpha, I should have said Delta. As for the rest... You are a Star Trek fan. You are always going to make Trek come out on top no matter what. The numbers aren't balonie, Trek would lose. You are using your own personal preference to create your own desired outcome. Believe that Trek is the best all you want. The numbers say otherwise and the numbers don't lie.

To quote some of the Trekkies here... "It happened on screen so we can't really dispute it!" Sure it was likely simply a mistake of filming and the ship wasn't supposed to get scratched, but they kept the shot in, we saw a rock shatter the side panel of a shuttlecraft and we have seen, in Generations, a rock gouge a hole in the side of the NCC 1701-D as the D crashed down to the planet.

Even if we say that Star Trek vessels can slag any Wars vessel with ease, with full shields intact, without a scratch of damage (Yeah, not possible, but whatever) the Star Trek universe simply cannot compete. Lets assume that Star Wars vessels are the equivalent of TOS ships, the numbers say otherwise, but Trekkies won't budge on being the best regardless of what tech manuals say. There is still Hyperdrive. Hyperdrive alone makes it impossible for the Federation to win. We know, for example, that the Star Wars galaxy is 2x the size of our real galaxy, which is the same galaxy that Trek takes place in. A ship can traverse, in Wars, from one end of the Galaxy to the other in about 6 weeks. A Trek Ship can traverse, in Trek, from one end of the Galaxy tot he other in about 150 years. So... Here is what happens... The Imperials set up Star Bases somewhere in the Alpha Quadrant. The fastest the feds can get there is 75 years. Meaning Trek can't attack high command or the ship building facilities. Wars has huge numbers, dwarfing the Federation. Here is the first strike: Wars sets loose 18,002 Star Destroyers... Assume... I dunno... 2 Super Star Destroyers, 6,000 Imperial Star Destroyers, 12,000 Victory class Star Destroyers, and lets assume around another 20,000 cruisers and other Imperial ships. So we are talking about 38,002 capital ships, each filled with a full compliment. These ships hit Earth. Earth has no way to know they are coming before they get there, they might detect something, but they don't have anything there to stop that kind of an attack. 38,002 ships pop out of Hyperspace. In a matter of seconds after that the Federation would attempt to talk to the Empire, this is the standard Federation MO. The Imperials respond by opening fire. The Earth is destroyed, there might even be heavy losses on the Imperial side, but the Federation just lost Earth and Earth's shipyards. No ships can possibly respond in time. Once Federation ships arrive all they find is a scorched Earth and fields of debris. Starfleet is in shambles and aside from some recovered video footage nobody knows where these ships came from or where they went. The Federation is suddenly in trouble. The loss of Earth as well as their shipyards as well as tons of defending ships means the Federation is vulnerable. This would cause the Federation to fracture at the foundations, as every other episode deals with some faction or another within the Federation having a problem with the Federation and with the massive loss the Federation just suffered they will suddenly be facing internal strife with no ability to hold it together. The Imperials then simply appear, picking Federation targets at random, using no pattern, but always with the same MO. Every few weeks a huge fleet drops out of warp and slags a planet, a space station, or whatever. They are always gone before the Federation ships can get there. They strike from an unknown location and fade away just as fast. Within a year the Federation falls.

Do you really really want to play the game where we start nit picking flaws in the others tech? I mean... Do you seriously want to do that? You know... How Star Trek ships and shields can't handle a lightning strike? How about how shields aren't capable of stopping a normal missile? Do we want to get into the fact that they showed a normal rock, thrown by a human, shatter "tritanium plating" in an episode? I mean... If you want to go there... We can but... Since Star Trek has had multiple TV shows they have had a lot more room for catastrophic mistakes. You are trying to ignore the source material based on nit picks, also, it wasn't "wood" that broke the AT-ST, Durasteel is highly flexible, it was two logs slamming into it simultaneously causing it to deform which crushed the cockpit. But if we want to play the nit-pick game... We have seen a spear, thrown by a human, crack the hull of a Trek ship. We have seen a normal lightning strike cause the sheilds to fail and fry "half of systems on the ship" and this went right through the shields mind you. If a normal lightning bolt can do that, then I'd hate to see what an ion canon can do. Explained in canon. There is something called inertial compensators at play that prevent the things you mentioned from happening. Judging from how people get knocked around on Trek ships from pretty much any impact no matter how weak it just shows Trek doesn't have them.

No. It couldn't. Durasteel is not Tritanium. Durasteel, as described in Star Wars has a counterpart in Star Trek. In Star Trek it was called "Quantum armor" and it was, according to TNG, "Indestructible." Though they could not reproduce it due to the creator taking the secret to his grave. So what would happen is this: Phaser fires at AT-ST, AT-ST takes the hit, turns, the shot has no effect, and the AT-ST blasts the federation person who tried it. However Durasteel does have a weakness. It is highly flexible and can be deformed by concussive blows of significant enough mass. The Ewoks actually were able to use this to their advantage.

Unsure, there were several that had problems with asteroids. I still say, based on power output, the Executor would blow holes through the shield and ship. That is due to the material the hull and the ship are made of. Star Wars has something Star Trek doesn't again, in this case "Durasteel" which is basically what Star Trek calls "Quantum Armor" and it is common in Star Wars while super rare in Star Trek and in Star Trek that armor "cannot be penetrated" even by quantum torpedoes.

A lot of people also want to use the, "Instead of the technical numbers lets use what we see on screen!" argument. That is an argument I don't think the Trekkers want to use. Why? Two words: Seismic Charge In Episode II we saw Jango Fett's Slave I dropping strange charges in an asteroid field, these charges were shattering multiple asteroids per detonation. Showing, for example, one very large asteroid, about twice the size of Slave I, get shattered as well. In Trek an asteroid of that same size took a spread of Photon Torpedoes that had to be calculated by Data in order to achieve the same result. In Episode V we saw a Super Star Destroyer disintegrate a large asteroid in a single shot. How large was this asteroid? On screen this asteroid was roughly 1/10 the size of the Super Star Destroyer, which makes it approximately 1.9 kilometers in diameter. To put this in perspective the USS NCC-1701-D was only 467 meters in length. This makes it not even half the size of the asteroid we are SHOWN being vaporized in a single shot. Again asteroids of similar size are destroyed in Trek, but they require hours of calculations, and entire spreads of torpedoes, and in the case of an asteroid the size of the one we saw the SSD vaporize it took a Q to do it. Now to the person who asked why we don't then see people getting shot through by hand blasters. That is also simple to explain. Blasters have varying amounts of power that are pushed through the tibana gas. Turbolasers, for example, have different power settings so do an X-Wing's blaster cannons.

Hold on there just one second. Here is the problem. The Tibana gas ability to get MORE energy out than what is put in is by FACTORS so... Imagine... A Star Trek ship is flying around... When they scoff at the "out dated" plasma... When that plasma hits their ships with a force 1,000 times more powerful than plasma should be. That is where the Star Wars weapons have an edge, the physics defying capabilities of Tibana multiply the force output that plasma can have... Which jacks the power of a plasma bolt up by TEN FOLD what is even capable by physics. As long as Star Wars has Tibana gas they win. Because getting hit by 1 blaster bolt, to trek, is like getting hit by 1,000 plasma bolts simultaneously all at the same location. According to the numbers a lone X-Wing could fire a bolt at the NCC 1701-E, a single bolt mind you, that would plow through the shields, through the hull, through the ship, out of the other side of the hull, and punch through the back of the shields. Star Trek is out gunned. Even the smallest Wars ship could pulverize the most powerful Federation vessel.

The "Trek ships are immune to lasers" argument simply doesn't fly. They never made a definitive statement that no lasers could penetrate Trek shields for one, they specifically referred to a specific laser being used. The other argument is this... Star Wars doesn't use lasers. Star Wars uses blasters. Though they are often called turbolasers on capital ships, that terminology isn't correct. In Star Wars how blasters function is simple... The Star Wars blaster has a cylinder which fills with tibana gas. Tibana gas has special properties that violate every known law of physics and give you more energy out then was put inside of it. The Tibana gas is heated by an "energy stream" (what kind of energy stream it is, we don't know, all we know is that it super heats the Tibana gas) then the Tibana gas is ejected out of the cylinder and out of the barrel. This attack is known as "Plasma" and in Star Trek "Plasma" has been shown to be ridiculously effective.

Actually we don't know that Q could do that. The continuum doesn't exactly like it when Q's start pulling things and we don't know how the Force interacts with a Q.

You don't have a choice. We have to go on what those manuals say because they create that universe. You can't determine a winner based on what you want we have to go by the "Facts" as presented by the respective IPs. Also no... Star Wars numbers were not written to be superior to Trek numbers, that is a very odd conspiracy theory.

There was no good explanation. She didn't go with the "Twin bond will prevent me from winning!" argument. She literally said she needed tips from the greatest killer of Jedi in the galaxy... Boba Fett. Which is total horse poodoo. Luke should have been the one to teach her, being the fact that he had been the one who beat Jacen previously. More importantly Luke should have been the one to take down Caedus instead of Jaina for narration. After all... Cadaeus killed Luke's wife. Cadaeus tried to turn his son to the Dark Side. Jacen was his student. He was the one responsible for letting Jacen get lured in by Vergere. I mean, I love Luke and all, but he dropped the ball on this one.

Exactly. Enough said. That is because unless you are a Jedi, and you personally know other Jedi, you aren't aware of Jedi ever being killed. The normal people and even soldiers in the Republic are more likely to go, "You killed a Jedi? Feh... No way. Jedi can't be killed."

And that has nothing to do with this conversation. Nobody in this thread is "ordering" people around. This is about the actual capabilities of Jedi on the whole being constantly ignored by BioWare through the course of this game and that being followed by PLAYERS doing the same thing when trying to discuss canon. BioWare has never understood Jedi. From the moment they had HK-47 open his audible projector with his bantha poodoo methods to kill Jedi to the constant statements by every Tom, Richard, and Harry in this game about how they were trained to handle Jedi. They don't get it and it is likely that they never will. When I can think of DOZENS of ways to counter all of the ways to kill Jedi that don't even require anywhere near Leia Solo or Luke Skywalker levels of Force prowess there is a problem. Especially when all have been shown in canon. All I ask is that players admit the following things: 1. There is no way anyone who isn't a Jedi or a Sith has ever actually been trained to "Handle Jedi" realistically and most likely those who think they have are operating with a false sense of security. 2. Force Users are not "average people" by any stretch and constantly disrespecting the lore and canon simply because they don't like the idea of Jedi or Sith being more powerful than non-Jedi or Sith is simply silly in spades. Edit: Here are a few choice things: 1. "I can shield my thoughts! This gives me an advantage over Jedi!" ... Droids don't even HAVE thoughts and it doesn't help them. That defense doesn't work. 2. Atton Rand was a Jedi Hunter! ... And Atton was also a freaking Force User who was subconsciously using the Force. 3. Rockets! ... Can be deflected or detonated mid flight with the Force, very easily, this isn't an advanced skill even. 4. Mines! ... Can be hurled through the air and away from the Jedi, not to mention detected by the Jedi. 5. Flamethrowers! ... Resist elements. 6. Poison! ... Immunity to poison. 7. Boba Fett! ... Couldn't take Luke Skywalker not-even-a-Jedi-Knight in a fight after multiple encounters. 8. Sniper! ... Precognition. 9. Shotgun blasts! Force wave, dodging, yanking the weapon to the side. 10. Death Star? ... Yeah... That one usually works. And yes... As I said... Not every Jedi can do everything I mentioned... I'd say most Jedi can do half of the things that I mentioned. The problem is that you have no way to know what half they can do. Some are vulnerable to poison... Some aren't. Some are vulnerable to snipers... Some aren't. Some are vulnerable to mind blocks... Though I don't know of any... Some are vulnerable to rockets, grenades, and mines... Some aren't. The problem is you have to pick your method and you have a, from the gate, 50% - 75% chance of being wrong. Which means in canon... Yes... You could kill a Jedi or a Sith as a non-Jedi or a Sith. To do this however requires you to get lucky and pick a method that that particular Jedi isn't equipped to deal with and that is really hard to do. Not saying it couldn't be done, but I am saying that it isn't something anyone can be trained to do. Usually killing a Jedi as a non-Sensitive involves studying the Jedi, learning his or her habits, then planning a method of attack that they have shown not to have a defense against. For example if you are facing a Jedi who is adept at twisting minds but is weak in the areas of telekinesis then you probably want to use a droid with an explosive projectile launcher to have the greatest degree of success.

Yup. The best of the best of the Clones could barely stop one 12 year old boy. The reason? That boy wasn't in the middle of a war zone being attacked from all directions. He also killed quite a few of the 501st on his way out. Honestly BioWare trying to make it so that Force Users in this game were "just normal people" is one of the reasons I think the game is floundering. It doesn't feel like Star Wars to me.

Eh... The real reason was: 1. The Jedi's senses were dulled by Darth Sidious, something only Sidious could do. 2. The Jedi were all in warzones at the time and facing enemies when their allies turned on them. 3. The Jedi were under attack from the front and from behind. Your argument fails as we never saw any clones take Jedi straight up, because yeah, overwhelming numbers from an ambush position while the person is in combat against enemy targets will work on anything Jedi or not. You guys really need to accept that Jedi and Sith are superhuman in Star Wars.

That theory actually doesn't work. Canonically Jedi can sense droids and even things like mines before they go off. Shielding your thoughts wouldn't make a whole lot of difference because Jedi routinely predict the actions and behaviors of things that have no minds at all.

The problem with training to overcome Jedi is that it is stupid as a concept. Jedi don't have a formal training regime for one. There is no standard training. Look at it this way: How do you train to beat a psychic Martial Artist? Now... You don't know what form of martial arts this person knows by the way... There are 7 commonly known forms of combat they might know... You have no way to know which ones any given martial artist will know. Some of them are adept in telekinesis as a psychic power, meaning that some of them may be able to easily counter missiles, rockets, or grenades... In fact they might be able to turn those against you... And you don't know which ones these are. Some of them can turn invisible. Some of them can see the future, meaning sniping won't necessarily work. Some of them can render themselves immune to toxins and poisons and even stun bolts. Some of them can render themselves immune to heat and fire. Some of them can create bubbles of Force capable of shrugging off most modern armaments. Any of them can do one or more of those things... You have no way to know... There is no form of training that will counter all of that. At the most you can learn how to fight a melee combatant but everything else is a toss up. No non-Sensitive can take trained Jedi regularly, Jango Fett was possibly the only anomaly and he was an anomaly until a Jedi Master stepped in. Does this mean that normal people can't kill a Jedi? Of course not. It does mean that there is no way to do this with any degree of repeatable success. Generally you can pick 1 of the ways that might work and you have to hope that the Jedi you are going after isn't one of the ones that can counter that tactic because you likely won't get to sit back and try them all. Edit: I have said it before and I will say it again: The best way to kill a trained Jedi or Sith is to attack the SHIP that they are on when they are just a passenger. Wait until the Jedi or Sith is on a non-battleship space ship and all you have to do is destroy the ship. You can circumvent having to face the Jedi at all... Just hope they can't do the battlemind.

No... It isn't... And no you aren't. "I am a Jedi, I am unarmed, you aim your rocket launcher and.... Your rocket hits a wall of Force as it is exiting the barrel, just enough of a nudge to set the rocket's detonator off... And it explodes in your face." or "I am a Jedi, I am unarmed, you aim your rocket launcher and... I yank the barrel to the right just as you pull the trigger, congratulations, you missed by a mile."

And... It is also a Myth. We don't know how good Revan's "Jedi Hunters" were actually. We know that Atton... A Force Sensitive... Was good. We can't trust anything he recounts because, like it or not, he was a Force User and didn't know it.

Just because they don't have weaknesses doesn't make them invulnerable and nobody ever claimed it did. Also the fact that you can do it in the game doesn't make it in canon. Flamethrowers don't work any better than blasters. Missiles and explosives are the same. The problem with HK isn't that the things he says kill Jedi won't kill Jedi, but they won't kill Jedi any easier than any other method. You have just as much chance with a rocket launcher as you do with a blaster pistol. That is to say a very small chance.