Yea I checked there but expected it to be for the 10th and was only seeing the patch highlights link I found it tho

I keep hearing there were class changes in 2.8 but can't find an article/post/link to something that shows the full notes with class changes. All I see is stuff about the Dread NM and slot crap.

His rotation is very long winded, and the damage he could do total will still be outmatched by other DPS specs in the same time frame, zen, prec slash and Master strike are the keys. There is just WAY too much spammable CC in the game, either the game needs a better working resolve system, there needs to be CC reflect abilities added, or Mara/Sent needs some weaker version of unstoppable

Yea, you must be extremely dirt nap bad at sniper then, no offense (there a quite a few DPS specs other then sniper that should be doing easily more DPS then any mara spec *in pvp*)

problem is In it's current form Sent/Mara is built like a stealth class without access to full stealth. (Leap doesnt make up for it) Some sort of shot duration partial CC immunity tied to leap would make up for it. I like the idea of a guard break but I think it would make more sense on a class that doesn't have a healing debuff. I I think it would be better tied to Lethality Ops (not sniper), conceal Op, or even add it to the effect of Net for mando/merc. I'd much rather see the healing debuff of crippling throw get upped to something like 50% even if it was high tier talent based, then get a guard break

I dont think they need more direct survivability increasing tools per say. A simple weaker/partial version of unstoppable would do the trick. Force grip like talent would be nice as well (in honesty I think Choke/Stasis should by default perform like they do with Force Grip/Stasis mastery talents on)

not really, they are just focused first because even if you have them set as the second focus, it is a 90% guarantee one of your team is gonna die. They are just the weakest class when it comes to surviving as primary focus of MULTIPLE players. However, their damage is way in the OP range, they have way too much CC and escape for the amount of ranged damage they possess. Other classes just have DCDs that scale or still work fairly well to keep them alive under multiple pple focusing them at least for a few more seconds. Also they are already OP in regs, you can't buff them just for ranked In Solo ranked sniper is actually one of the few if not the only class that makes 2xTank 2x Dps comp actually super lethal

yea if anything sniper are in need of losing something either some CC or damage

it sounds like it is singling those 2 roles out but in reality what is the objective of a match or what is the determines the outcome of any PVP match 99% of the time? That is simple, killing the enemy team more then they kill your team. This is basically true in reg non arenas as well. Take Voidstar, coded objective is the doors.... but if you are stomping the enemy team while defending, it is FAR more unlikely they will be able to set a bomb, on the lip side if you are attacking and stomping the enemy team it is FAR more likely you will be able to set a bomb. With that said, killing being the most important part, what kills a player? getting their health to zero...via DAMAGE. This means DAMAGE based specs are the foundation the game is built around. They are also the majority of the player base, so it makes sense that DPS would NOT be limited

Agreed, I think he is talking more along the lines of a healer+guard.... even when it is a DPS/hybrid doing the guarding. Sure, when it's not an actual tank doing the guarding the next approach would be to focus the dps doing the guarding, but what if you find yourself in a match where the enemy team has more then 1 DPS with access to guard and they all actually use it when needed +switching? happens quite often on Pot5. So whilst I don't fully disagree that other healing specs could be brought up to scouperative's level, but the point is if that happens then guard will have to see a large nerf (where right now guard+scouperative needs a nerf in some way anyway)

arguing semantics will get us no where. Its simple, longer matches does not mean automatically more skill or strategy. Short matches do not automatically mean more skill or strategy

deeper strat......lol More like "hope their tank/heal makes a very stupid mistake before ours does" strat. Longer lasting matches = / = more skill involved Longer lasting matches = / = more strategy I will give an example: If Team A executes an intelligent strategy, and Team B executes a poor strategy / fails to execute an intelligent strat; this should end in a fast match, assuming equal comps between both teams ofc. Where a sign of balance issues can be witnessed is when a certain comp (like Tank+Scouperative) is able to "wing it", execute poor strats, or fail to execute one and still excel with little thought/skill involved. This does not mean the other healers need to be brought up to that level, that is just silly. It shows that either the problem is scouperative heal spec itself to far too powerful in either healing or survivability, OR guard itself synergizes far too well with that one class+spec especially when it is basically a toggle/ "fire and forget" ability for the most part (not counting guard switches)

lol..... You lose all merit when you try to do the whole passive aggressive "heals need more DPS" sarcasm. In a 3dps and 1 healer match if one of the healers is a Scouperative and the other is not, the non scouperative has every right to leave at this point imo unless he knows his 3dps are much higher caliber then theirs, or their 3dps is a poor comp. I don't even have to argue that scouperative healing is overpowered cuz the people who are defending that class+spec do it FOR me; by them obviously showing how bad they are by not realizing the potential stealth, roll and vanish give you YET they still are better then the other healer specs by leaps and bounds shows you how easy it is. A major problem is also the power of guard +taunts. A Tank + healer is more in a sense combining into 2.5 players, sometimes the worth of 3 even (depending on the tank and healer class). Where it should be, at most 2 flat. There should be much more of a sacrifice made by the tank for using guard, or there needs to be a ability tied counter added to a few specs. It is kind of like how snipers have access to *Diversion*.... that kind of ability would be more balanced in the hands of a Mara/Sent, with some drawbacks obviously like CD/ Rage cost. It is a counter, to a spammable staple class ability and only the class that the ability counters, has access to it (which is dumb), yet cover itself counters leap is a staple class ability lol. Now while it is dumb I doubt it will ever change, with that said, I wouldn't entirely be against tank classes getting an ability that STRIPS guard.

Yea you can tell he is a troll by his post history, but even more recently is why I have him on ignore. He did manage to get 2 other trolls to respond though. Maybe it is some kind of troll rally in coded form

Not sure if serious.....

I'm on Pot5 and this is def the case. Mara/sent is pretty much buff bot atm. People don't realize how easy it is to completely blow out any mara/sent in damage done and K/D on a Jugg/Guard. Also, it isn't just ED, to be clear. It is unstoppable as well (for Vigi/veng) 1. The more time you can stay on your target, as in range of the your abilities, generally means more damage done. Also means more pressure. 2. The more time you can stay ALIVE while using your abilities, generally means more damage done, more pressure, and more contribution to the team and objective whatever that may be. Sure it is cool to blow up a target in 4-8s every 10-20 times you first engage in a fight after spawning, but..spending more time resetting (holding off till combat state wears off to regen hp), and spending a lot of time in the spawn area waiting is not really playing much less contributing.

I agree mostly with this. More fluid and mobile combat all around makes for a more enjoyable experience, and raises the skill cap. I put having stand still channel abilities on melee classes (Flame thrower, Ravage and choke) up there with making a stealth class also a healer... it's like the down syndrome of game design.

dont feed the troll bro

Yea, Still say either CC needs to be toned down, or sent/mara needs some sort of partial Unstoppable talent

Did you just say AP PT and madness assassin have less survivability then Mara/sent? 1/10

Well I don't agree they are in every top group, they are in quite a few I will give you that, but at the same time there is no way to prove they aren't there mostly for the group buffs and are in reality being carried for the most part. Oper DPS is not a wasted placed without a healer.... lol You bring smuggle to the table, AOE flashbang, single target stun, stealth mez. If you are full scrapper/conceal you have great on demand burst and consistent high damage hits, if you are lethality/DF you don't really have the burst but make up for it in straight DPS and survivability. I have won 1v2 at the end of ranked before as Lethality. full Middle tree Sage/Sorc (TK) sure I will agree with you there because they are so immobile and so vulnerable to interrupts. I wish Forcequake would be put back into the tree and made into a powerhouse ability on a proc.

http://changingminds.org/disciplines/argument/making_argument/argument_elements.htm You are welcome

lol..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

An issue for you, yes. Propping DCDs up on a pedestal and describing the effects in your own words = not a valid part of an argument. Claiming that a class should have to wait and twiddle their thumbs until everybody blows their plethora of CCs before they can actually contribute, or rather claiming any class is designed or should be designed that way is laughable at best.

There is certainly a way to prove this. Lets take Carnage/Combat for example. The highest portion of your damage is mostly done by Ravage in a gore window. While using Ravage the Mara/sent is susceptible to all CC, whilst the target is only rooted. The target can also break free from the root involving the many talents that do so, AND CC breaks/immunities in the game. Now take the amount of CC all classes have access too including other mara/sents. Also take in to account how low the cds on those CCs are, how many of them are AOE etc etc. Now you also have the broken resolve system. I already thing having a stand still channel ability for a melee class is very backwards and stupid game design to begin with but that is a different topic all together. So with the above, compare that to any other DPS spec. I will compare to some of the other ones I have Pyro PT? I get stunned middle of my burst rotation, sure its a small set back, but It doesn't really stop my burst. TK sage? I eat maras and juggs alive if they arent smash, and my burst requires me to be stationary for the majority. Slinger? Same as TK sage but even more-so for most classes I face. You won't be spending much time in my face when im playing this. God forbid I setup shop in a place like on a pipe in quesh, now we are talking about wreaking havoc on your entire team with ease. Sin? Sure it doesn't have anywhere near the pressure a Mara or Jugg, and somewhat less then a PT, the sin still has very easy to use burst rotations, and far less RNG then Mara/Sent. It also has a huge factor that most take for granted (and have trouble using correctly / thinking outside the box with) AKA STEALTH. Extremely powerful tool. But ofc thats just talk, and you'd come to the same conclusion comparing the classes on paper as well. Playing is where the proof is. Even watching the so called "top" mara/Sent streams that don't play smash.... Every single time I watch them in ranked..... I see them being carried. It is obvious to me at least. Also just so people are aware.... cuz I see it a lot... trying to use "Mara/sent is just a harder class to play" or something along those lines as a part of your argument that there is no changes needed is BY DEFINITION a logical fallacy, whether I agree with it or not.