To separate PvE from PvP should not be as difficult in this game as historically it is with many other games. Just apply class specific de-buffs on level of healing/dps in a WZ environment applied alongside the bolster. The stat alterations could be relatively easily modified with each patch and without enormous analysis into every classes range of abilities. This would not effect PvE at all. A previous poster mentioned the issue of Bright Wizards in Warhammer which used the same PvP developers. What he didn't mention was that it took 2 years for the developers to understand the issues, and then only after agreeing to a challenge match against a European guild to prove the point, who proceeded to stomp them into oblivion time and time again. After this exercise the Bright Wizard class was nerfed within a few weeks. Unfortunately developers tend to rely too much on stats and not enough on play. From my own perspective I have played since launch and have 25 lvl 60,s over 3 servers covering all classes and specs, so I can play whatever is fotm as and when it changes. I only tend to do this when I have become frustrated by being face-rolled on the classes I prefer to play for fun, i.e. Sniper, Marauder etc.

You mention the "good" players you look for or recognise, I can only suggest you make yourself known to them and become friendly so you can pre with them sometimes. The main reason Pubs struggle more than they used to is that many of the well known characters moved to PvP servers. As for the "cry moar" comment - there are many sub 12 year olds and moronic numpties who don't understand that a lack of players of either faction increases queue times and kills competitiveness on the server. These are the face rollers who will do anything to avoid an even fight so they can stroke their epeen. Just ignore their comments as the childish ignorance they are, unfortunately they appear in all games. The more intelligent pre players know that its the gear and pre that make them good and so don't face roll much beyond their dailies unless their are other pre's around.

It was a FOTM class before 3.0 so that takes away some credibility from your statement. "Plenty of people beat my hatred Sin" = There are bad players of all classes, playing a FOTM class badly doesn't mean that the class isn't OP.

I have also experienced the OP.s issue on my Scoundrel, but only since the expansion

Learn to use blackout, that stun becomes usable frequently. Check your choices in the skill tree

We used to report hacks, the favourites being Teleport and speed in the hope that BW would do something about the cheating. They did, in addition to stealth they gave sins/shadows Teleport, speed and just to round things off a seemingly endless supply of stuns which seem to totally avoid the resolve rules (although this is more likely to result from the resolve rules having never worked properly). Just to make things clear I play all classes in PvP, including bot SIn and Shadow, but I also like a challenge, face rolling soon loses its appeal. I played one WZ today against 5 sins, 2 sorcs and a Marauder, surely even thethickest of game designers can work out there is an issue here.

OP has a point and thanks for the alternative suggestions. BW now expect players to pay for their Stun Wars PvP experience, Stun, die TTK is a total myth is doesn't exist. Due the level of historic complaints and their total inability to deal with Hacks, they gave a teleport ability to Sins/shadows, just about dealable with, but not satisfied they now gave them a serious speed hack so that the hackers can claim they use an in-game ability. I suggest they a) get their developers to play the WZ's solo in ALL classes to see what a bad experience it is - and consider would they pay for it. and, b) hire a couple of chimps to balance the game play they could only improve things. Of course those that rely an 3 other players to hold their hand and who play FotM classes will say things are fine. The same type of players said the same about WAR before it lost its player base forcing closure for exactly the same treasons - oh btw another BW controlled game.

I think the point is "why have an MVP system at all?" It has no value as reward and is often awarded to low contribution players, so MVP is a bad label for a bad system, perhaps "Favourite player* would be a better name.

I have only read part of the thread, but the advice is generally good. Always remember that people who sign up for a PuG have no right to complain, they chose to join a group which is potentially unbalanced, has undergeared and/or new/inexperienced players. If they cant handle that, they should find themselves a pre made or not queue at all. I play all classes in PvP in end game and mostly in PuGs - double Pre,s in the main are for sad acts who just want to face roll as far as I am concerned, especially those who consist of all fotm classes. I have no problems with mixed or single pre,s at all (people will always want to play with friends). Snipers always struggle in 4 v 4 arenas if the opponents know what they are doing (with the exception of a few very good players), so don't feel bad if you find this hard or die quickly, just try to learn to optimise your positioning and do your best. I always welcome new players I,m teamed with. So we lose a few matches, if people cant take losing they shouldn't pvp,

Not abut 2.8 specifically, but any game that gives a class heavy armour, massive aoe damage, mobility, healing and a aoe stun and defensive cd,s has to be considered OP. Who wins most 8 man wz,s now is who has the most Juggernauts. Easy Mode no skill required for any player, but with multiple skilled players in a pre made totally OP.

The inbalance in kills is not new, but it does seem to be more frequent. It has always happened when good pre-mades face PuGs (especially with poorly geared and/or inexperienced players in PvP) The only way to stop this is to separate Pre-mades from Solo queues. An old argument that I wont start again here. The recently more frequent scenario seems to be a lack of healers in PuGs giving 1 side an advantage, especially when its a pre made. A further trend recently is the preponderance of Sent/Marauders using coordinated leap and slam techniques. Not much you can do when 4 good geared slammers hit you with crits simultaneously. Is it a skill issue, arguable, I,m afraid leap and slam is a totally skill-less ability, however, focussing targets and co-ordinating jumps does take a little (albeit very little) skill.

Your fear that they might remove your OP ability is not only obvious but also pathetic. Everyone knows that a spammable ability of this type ruins balance in objective based wz's. Everyone except the muppets they employ as developers that is.

An additional point that should be considered, and that couldnt be solved by 4 + 4 x 2 ranked queues, is the situation pre lvl 50. With the influx of ftp players and the increased frequency of pre 50 pre-mades we run the risk of scaring away the very new players. Yesterday I played several games against pre-mades (with voice comms - and yes I know that for sure, as I know the team well) and have noticed that there are many more over the last few weeks in the sub 50 bracket. As an experienced player with well geared characters at any level it is not a problem for me (especially as we won every match against them), but I do have some concerns that the new players, especially with a 5 game weekly limit, will just decide that they will not participate as they have no chance to compete at all. There are many players who decide pvp is not for them due to bad experiences before they reach 50, entering the pool again at 50 with little experience would only confirm their worst fears, thus limiting the size of the playing population.

There are several threads relating to PuGs vs Pre-mades - this thread is about quitters. Just as point of misundertsanding - PuGs are not saying pre-mades should be prevented. Only that they should should be queued separately from soloists. Whatever your view pro or con please try to undertsnad the issue you are posting on. Meanwhile go to threads on that subject, and comment on quitters here.

because BW took so long to start up an official server site, the progenator has an independant site - you might have more luck with your question there: http://theprogenitor.com/

1. Research Warhammer online 2. Substitute valor for renown 3. Tie gear to valor level Loosely speaking what you describe is a similar system to WAR. Those who had a level of 100 renown (valor) could take out 24 man warbands of lesser players solo. Whilst changes were made to limit this "God mode" it effectively finished the game off first. Personally not anxious to repeat that experience.

I dont see hacks anymore, but I do see some strange things at times which I put down to Bugs. In the distant past I did see speed hacks and teleports but so long ago now I couldnt tell you when it was. Strange things do happen in this game from time to time and they can be very frustrating when they do i.e. My lvl 48 Jugg slams a group of 4 opponents - 3 take damage between 2400 - 3600 hp - the 4th, a level 19 unshielded scoundrel takes a hit of 32hp - I cant think how game mechanics could account for that - cant see that its a hack either, so bug? Just remember when calling hack, although you may be right, its probably a bug issue of some sort.

Do you have any idea what the ranked queues are for? Yes getting eight together is difficult at best and time consuming , and whats the point? They have been pre-season since they were introduced. I have seen no recent information that this status will be changed. Make ranked premades of 4 + 4 to incentivise the pre-mades to get out of normal and leave the new players and soloers to have their fun their way.

You never played Warhammer then? Also from EA :-)

I agree, if anything the bolster system seems to overcompensate compared to higher levels when talking dps, but not enough to really be a problem. The issue the OP is hinting at, and almost certainly suffering from, is facing pre-mades. Most dps classes get their trade mark abilities early on in their levelling process. Healers on the other hand get some of their most powerful abilities in the 20's and 30,s when combined with skill tree enhancements. So a higher level healer may well have a significant advantage over a low level healer,

You can buy augmentation kits and augments on the GTN if you really want to.

As I do PvP for the fun of fighting other players/teams (shock horror), I like Voidstar as it forces you to do so, both in defence and attack - much more preferable to a WZ that depends on you avoiding fighting and Knocking back/Pulling people into death traps. when combined with the Multi-stun environment and the relatively innefffective anti-stun system.

Okay as you asked so nicely, heres a few to be getting on with - ill post you some more on Monday when I am scheduled to be back at work if you can give satisfactory re-buffs to the first few as being unacceptable. Reasons why people will not use voicecomms and therefore will not play in l33t pre-made groups: 1. Deafness or profound hearing difficulties - This effects 9 million poeple in the UK alone out of a population of approx 60 million - you can work out the potential worl numbers for yourself. 2. Cyber bullying or fear thereof - 18% of young Europeans have experinced online bullying in the last 3 months 3. Parental concern over child grooming 4. Muteness/mutism - I couldnt find any specifc statitistics - doesnt mean it doesnt exist 5. Speech impediments - can cause embarassment to sufferers meaning they do not wish to use voice comms 6. Age discrimination - some younger players feel they will be descriminated againt in terms of inclusion to Ops or Pvp if other players know that they are yound (normally less than 16 or 18. 7 Age discrimination - some older players feel they will not be accepted by the "pro" gaming community 8. Some female gamers feel intimidated by the misogynistic attitudes of same male, particularly younger male players. 9. Language issues - The world population is currently circa 7 billion. of this approx 1.1 billion speak English as a first or second language, approx 95 million speak German, French is a little unclear, but native french speakers are about 75 million, I dont know the statistics for French as a second language, but lets assume that there are a total of 1.5 billion people who speak either English/French or German. This means there are 5.5 billion who do not speak the most common in game languages - some will group together in language specific groups i.e. Spanish for instance, but for some smaller language zones with few player spread over sveral servers communication may very well be an issue. Thats all for now - have a good weekend

And remember you can equip companions with your cast off gear as long as it is of a suitable type. You should only do this if the companion shares the same main stats as you

I,m sorry, you seem to either lack the ability to read, or comprehension skills. Try reading the thread in its entirety. The "worthless platitude" was aimed a specific person who will not accept that other player's should not be forced to run with pre-mades whether they like it or not, and who cannot accept that there are, for some people, valid reasons not to do so. I actually started to make a list of possible reasons, and at number 15 I decided I was wasting my time as their mind is too closed anyway. I have accepted other peoples POV as valid from their perspective and have suggested alternative solutions to the issue as a compromise. The only point on which I remained rigid is that change needs to happen and it needs to happen soon if the game is to thrive. Please do some research into Warhammer online if you are not already aware of it. You will see direct parallels between the two PvP (RvR) systems - not surprising as they both come from EA, and WAR's developers were also used on SWTOR's development. You will also find the same issues of lack of communication to their customer base. WAR customers also wanted ranking and cross server but never got it and the game effectively died due to lack of population, and when I left was down to 1 USA server and 1 European server. They also had the same issues of Premades dominating WZ's which was a parial cause of the decline. I see history repeating itself with SWTOR, I dont see any acceptance of PvP issues from BW and I doubt their committment to large changes, therefore I am pushing for relatively small changes that actually might be possible and whilst not ideal solutions, may hopefully improve the playing experience for some of the disaffected players. You can post a reply if you wish, I wont be reading it as I have had enough of luddites and fantacists who resist change by insisting that the only solution is one that just isnt going to happen in time to prevent irreversable population bleed. If BW do introduce a bug free working cross server matching system within the next year I will come back then to congratulate you on your insight and the accuracy of your predictions. I wouldnt hold your breath waiting for that to happen if I were you