No, you really don't want to be casting CrD. It's absolutely horrible as Deception and a complete and total waste of force now. The damage scaling has withered from 55 - 60. I think this was done intentionally to discourage its usage and it's worked, unfortunately.

This post is so incredibly clueless and ignorant. Are you still failing to understand the concept of ?

Marauder is (and has been since 2013), the other class I play. It needs love, but this is not the thread for it.

I thought the Self-Healing on Hatred was over the top upon reading the tooltips initially. After playing it extensively, it's quite balanced. (See: Jugg Self Sustainability) Interesting.

If Cleanse changes are reverted, Hatred will die immediately. It is a change that can be used to hold it down but it's not the way I'd go after some time of playing extensively. A cap on the DoT spread is the option that will be more in line. Again, I don't think any nerfs should happen until PT and Sorc are also looked at.

Nos, you are like an ancient relic to my eyes. Can still remember the time I had just hit 50 and saw you destroying everything on your sorc. Good to see you. Now, as far as the Acc / Alac etc - I have come to a realization. Hatred needs a mix of stats. - AT LEAST 94% Accuracy / 95% Accuracy Preferred. - 22 - 24% Crit - 68 - 71% Surge - 2 - 3% Alacrity - Rest Power - All WP Augments I'll have better follow up responses tomorrow on some of the views on this thread. It's late, sleep, etc.

My fellow ShadowSins, This class has gone from utility godhood to useless, to kinda good, to useless, to bad, to getting there and now good again. Homogenization has spread across the board, so a lot of the original finesse our Shadows and Assassins use to spew out is seemingly gone. Do not think that is a bad thing. Sometimes complexity needs to be reduced. For example, think on technology. We're not trying to complicate things as we evolve, we try to simplify it too and make it more convenient etc. Now, let's get to the juicy bits. DARKNESS / KINETIC COMBAT Ah my Darkness, my how you've grown. You were the original spec that MADE Sins into the utility monsters that they were and then much of your special talents were removed, taken or even given to other classes. We've seen some dark ages with Darkness devolving to by far, the worst tank in both PvE and PvP. So where is Darkness now? Darkness is in a very strong spot. Let's line up the goodies of it, shall we? Darkness does good damage, has respectable tanking output and the best part? It's a counter to inquisitors / consulars! Especially those pesky Hatred / Serenity builds. This gives Darkness an almost guaranteed spot in group ranked and of course the warzones alike. Naturally its defensives are on point too, making it a tanky fighter actually capable of withstanding damage! Onto the best part. The utility. My goodness, the utility. The utility on Darkness is unreal. As if pull, shroud, guard, taunt, spike, electrocute, reduce accuracy, aoe-slow, aoe-damage debuff, wasn't enough - Darkness now features a healing debuff that can be used as a single target attack or an AoE (Thrash / DS or Lacerate) Darkness is in a great spot and it's very fun in its current incarnation. Useful, gets the job done and an awesome team player. HATRED / SERENITY Little disorientated with the name change. Particularly, the name 'Hatred' sounds quite childish. Serenity on the other hand, ain't too bad. So I'm going to start with the obvious of this spec. This spec is Tier 1 at the moment. It's not because of its damage perse. It's because of it's cleave ability. Now before we get into the hate on this spec (no pun intended), let's talk about what this spec used to be. In one word: Useless. . The cleanse mechanic, the way it used to be, disabled this spec from ever showing its face. Not to mention, this spec was never good. For years we're talking here. Madness / Balance Assassins / Shadows did fluff damage at best for nearly 4 years! According to BW's philosophy on the previously asked questions, this spec is actually doing what it's supposed to - YEARS after release. This spec does not need a nerf on damage. Heck, even before the grand buffs, one could spec Madness, go into a warzone and top damage by far. Of course that'd be assuming the healers weren't cleansing or DPS / Tanks weren't shutting him down and yeah, a lot of it was fluff damage. Anyway, that being said, a revert to the cleanse mechanic will revert this spec into total uselessness so beware. A cap on the amount of targets in PvP for DF concerning DoT spread will be a more effective nerf. However, none of those nerfs should see the light of day if PTs and Sorcs don't get slapped either, because they too are absolutely stupid at the moment. Enjoy Hatred / Serenity. It's actually doing its role for once. DECEPTION / INFILTRATION My how you have fallen into a total shame. This spec is not fine. This spec is not fine at all and stop comparing it to Hatred because it has nothing to do with that. This spec is pathetic on its own. I look directly at PTs when I think about this spec. They have higher burst, more survivability, more ranged attacks AND immunity to being kited? And, what does this spec have? A bloody cool end-game animation, no doubt! Probably the coolest in game! And that's about it. This spec is now completely useless. The increased damage on Spike / Spinning Kick was unwanted, unneeded and a useless change. The increased damage on LS as well, serves no purpose because hey - Infiltration totally does great damage in PvE, huh? There were many methods to increase sustained output without increasing the burst. These forums had many good suggestions that I need not repeat if one does the research to find it. Maul's damage is unbelievably low. For such a tedious ability (getting behind people and its 'only-use-on-proc mechanics), it's disheartening to see its payoff so unworthy. Maul's damage MUST be increased once more. Reduce Spike, reduce LS damage and return duplicity to what it was. This simply isn't acceptable for a LIGHT-ARMORED-CLASS with LESS BURST AND DAMAGE than a HEAVY-ARMORED CLASS. It's illogical and cringe-worthy. Here's where it gets better. This spec is SO kiteable! On top of its low-armored state, people can kite around this spec as if it's nothing. Do you not see a disturbing issue there BW? That makes no sense whatsoever. It also has no self healing, making it a pain for healers to carry (yes, I said carry) and why should they? Other specs can take care of themselves better but this one needs to be strapped to the backpack of others? I haven't seen this spec this bad in years. Two steps forward, one step back I suppose. Anyway, . Enjoy. Please leave your own opinions and reports on our class as well.

PvP guides are coming on these forums soon. Patience. Lot of testing lately.

And objective PvP housed more tactics? Matter of opinion at best. Ranked 8v8 was the most static, boring and one-dimensional mode I have ever played. Arena actually forces players out of hiding behind PvE tactics. Either way - this game is easy and casual regardless. Fair. I did enjoy my Shadow more when it was about utility, like the long dead, 23/1/17 hybrid. That was the best playstyle of the class. Again that is nothing more than a mere opinion as I find that mode quite boring.

Of course I play Darkness. What good would I be if I didn't play all 3 specs of this class in different ways? Darkness is in fact among my favorite playstyles in the game. That being said, a lot of what Zab said was spot on. Now, concerning talents: - Avoidance - Obfuscation - Electric Bindings - Disjunction - Emersion - Dark Stability (A must in all specs) - Shroud of Madness

THAT'S what I thought too!

Someone is stuck in the past. DPS sins are exceptionally useful (if not the most useful class) in group combat - damage wise and utility wise; Pug or Non-Pug.

Okay, so I find it necessary for me to respond to this post. Hatred / Serenity is not a tunnel spec. It's a cleave spec. Lacerate, with or without Lambaste, is frankly incredible. 2 or more targets clumped with Lambaste makes it automatically better than Thrash. Furthermore, let's say you have a Darkness Sin on your team Lacerating; then guess what? That's 20% less healing on cleaved targets. Combine that with your dots, the pressure output is eventually nigh unhealable. Lacerate is Life. Lacerate is Love. Use it.

Actually, it is. That's what 'min/maxing' is.

We have been complaining about this for years... Yes it is still broken. Day 2 on my return, I stunned a shadow 2s into a 4sec resilience. I could only imagine the anger.

Great vid, learned a lot for my upcoming Jugg.

Sin tank is among the best, if not, the best rated tank at the moment and a soft counter to Hatred Assassins. It has very good utility, including an all new healing debuff which can be used as an AoE and if in conjunction with AoE classes; can perform nearly unhealable pressure. It also does respectable damage and has respectable defense on top of the guard to top things off. Darkness is in a very good spot and very strong. I would highly recommend it. DPS Gear + Shield using tanking set. (Remove tank mods / enh etc and replace it w/ DPS ones) Stack Power and disregard crit entirely. It depends on the comp you're facing. Can you be a little specific or do you mean overall, or warzone?

More and more I have been leaning towards a balance of stats like yours, with the exception of <95% acc. I think it may actually be the way to go for Hatred. Still testing.

It's aiding to the issue. It's part of the overall problem. I never said it'd fix everything. It's a step. I'm personally aware of how well my class scales with gear. Especially Hatred, min / maxed. The difference is dramatic vs non min / maxed gear. Yes, it will make a difference. If Hatred were to get nerfed, PvE would be hindered and my question is why, again? It's not overpowered in PvE, neither are AP PTs for example. I am aware you are not attacking me and I welcome other opinions but I don't think you quite understand my concept. The idea of less complexity and less variables allows less outcomes which, therefore, allows a better scope on controlling damage and healing in PvP. Regardless of how you slice it, the less chances something can raise itself to overtuned levels is a good thing. This is over complicating the idea. The idea is for stat pools to be focused toward a balance between both DPS specs (or all 3 for pure DPS classes) There have been other good suggestions in this thread with expertise, however. Point is, damage / healing can be artificially controlled in PvP without hindering PvE and it's very simple how that's done - through the gear. I've been min / maxing for over a decade. It's an outdated system.

It might be a problem beyond gear. Depends on the class / spec. We can't expect the gear changes I suggested to magically fix everything. It won't. It is, however, a step in the direction to achieve a better balance. Keep in mind gear can make or break certain specs and classes. I point to old Infiltration for example. Without its PvP 4 piece set bonus, it was 'meh' at best. After it, it became a monster.

No, but it complicates the formula, making PvP balance worse. It's not casualization, it's simply evolving the system. Growing does not mean complicating.

The variability is what makes class balance a more complex issue. There are classes right now that are seemingly overtuned in PvP but in PvE they are perfectly fine. What's the difference? Gear / stats. We take out the unnecessary complications, although it lessens variability and you have better balance. Wouldn't you prefer that? That still doesn't do much to address one of the main issues which is class balance in PvP and not PvE. Again, I know it will be less customization but the greater good outweighs the losses tenfold, imho.

Dear Bioware, As a long time player of your game, many of us have been through the tedious gearing model for years and for the most part, tolerated it. However, it is 2015 and I would hope that you are planning to evolve past the oudated model you are currently supporting. Let's get these aspects out of the way \\ Gearing is necessary in an MMORPG and should not be removed. Gearing gives a feeling of progression to players. Gearing for PvP gear disallows PvE'rs from entering and dominating without working for their coin These intentions are fine for the game type we are playing. However, the min / maxing concept is a dead horse. It serves no purpose in PvP but to empower some specs and classes more than they deserve. Therefore, balance is actually hindered by allowing player to achieve ridiculous levels of stats from min / maxing which goes further to throw the balance out of whack. As a matter of fact, the PvP balance can be more controlled without touching PvE just by modifying what kind of stats on PvP gear we are allowed to get. So what's the idea here? \\ Many hardcore PvPers wanted PvP gear flat out removed while many casuals argued the opposite. This is a middle ground. By removing min / maxing, you are allowing new or returning players to catch up quicker. The progression remains, sure, but it will not be as mandatory and grindy with more focus on the combat itself. Although artificial, you can control certain classes from getting out of control with what is available on their gear. For example, class X warrants no nerf in PvE but in PvP they are absurdly overpowered. Well, that class has to use PvP gear to succeed in PvP, does it not? So why not control it there instead of affecting a mode that warrants no punishment because of its counterpart? \\ Remove all optional mods and enhancements from vendors. This no longer serves a purpose beyond a tedious grind that is exceptionally unappealing. By now, gear implementation should feature stats focused toward that X class' needs with a healthy stat balance between all specs. Disallow X class to purchase Z class' gear. This also goes to keep players from achieving higher stat caps and allows you to keep your PvP game in better check. Make mods and enhancements part specific. A chest mod or chest enhancement should be a chest mod or chest enhancement only for example. This goes to lessen the grind and the unnecessary min / maxing which should be built in naturally. Only allow stat differences in implants and ear pieces. If players wish to go for the higher gain, then it should be a marginal difference through these minor off pieces. Not the dramatic difference we see now. Fix Bolster. No, I mean really, fix bolster. It is not only embarrassing but laughable at the fact that nearly anything can affect and bug bolster. What's next? Companion gear? Seriously, get this together. Years of this buggy system is unacceptable and yes, bolster deeply disturbs balance horribly. \\ It can be argued that this idea can be improved and believe me, it certainly can. The concept is to reduce this unnecessary grind, achieve a healthier state of PvP balance and welcome new and or returning players without a bitter taste of bile in their mouths from a tedious grind when in reality, PvP players simply want to play. They want others to have the gear capable to challenge themselves. I'd argue that PvP gear shouldn't even be able to receive augments but that can be argued indeed. The suggestions above do not counteract your idea on gear progression. It only makes it more achievable and fair.

Share those results on that project please. I'm paying attention to your findings.

PvP guides will be up soon. Forewarning that Infiltration is below average.