PT's are not outperforming Juggs/Sins on f/t e/k damage. Sins and juggs both have a lot more cooldowns against these types of attacks + Sins have a better Shield * Absorb rating then Powertechs. Sins definitly have an edge over pts against f/t e/k damage.

After a lot of testing, i would definitly say that powertech tanks need some help for mitigating internal/elemental damage. The difference between powertechs and the other two tanking classes against abilities like arcing assault are definitly too big. (They are too good in fights like nefra, were they can provide oil slick for both tanks, but that's another point.) I think PvE parsing is not that important for actual raids. AP Powertechs have the most aoe dps of any spec in the game (they outperform smash specs in aoe by a significant margin in pve), while having extremly good burst + they are one of the most tankiest dps specs. In my opinion, you can't buff specs that deal 40% of their single target rotation in an aoe (Rage is at~30%), to the level of pure single target specs, unless you wanna screw up balance in both pvp and pve. Pyro PTs parse quite okay (they are about 1% behind marksmann snipers, while having a lot less people that actually parse), while being able to do their complete rotation as instants and from range (big advantage for raids)

I guess madness was created as a sort of pressure spec for the healers in the long run with it's aoe and dots. Which contradicts a bit with stealth. Back to deception: I think overall the problem is pretty clear. The spec lacks ~3-3,5% sustained damage (as does madness) in order to be really viable for pve operations. The spec is in a (very) good position for pvp currently, so a direct increase of it's sustained damage would influence pvp balance. Therefore i think you have to balance the spec by nerfing some stuff that is more important for pvp then for pve (be it burst, defensive capabilities, or something else) while buffing it's sustained damage. That will keep the spec on the same level for pvp and will only buff it for pve.

I like the direction of the idea, but a straight buff for the heavy hitters would not be very good for pvp. My addition to your suggestion: A 8% damage buff instead of a 10% for Shock and Discharge. A 4,82% (calculated with knightriders top deception parse) straight damage buff for Voltaic Slash and Surging Charge. Still the 20% (with correct math this should 21,3% reduction but whatever) reduction of crit damage from Shock and Discharge. With doing that we have the same 3,2% overall damage increase from your changes. With my suggestion this comes at the expensive of losing 5,33% of your absolute maximum burst (tough you would still gain dps if shock and discharge don't crit). Of course, there are a lot of ways to balance these numbers. I think when you buff deception sustained damage, you also have to nerf it's burst a bit on the other hand. A straight damage increase might not be that usable for pvp, but it is still a buff that is not really needed. For tanks i don't have any questions at all and i can't think of anything i would want or ask for (and assassin tank is my absolute main). Edit: Math corrected.

I think most of the people will aggree, that assassin dps needs some more buffs. A few thoughts: It's very difficult to compare top dummy parses, but i will try: You have to be sure, that you just compare specs with a very similar number of hits and crits for example. If you compare a spec with 100 hits with a spec with 1000 hits over 5 minutes, then the probability to get a lot higher crit rates then usual is a lot higher. Therefore i will compare madness assassins with (hybrid) lethality snipers. Both are dot specs and have an aoe in their Standard Rotation and also have a very similar amount of hits and crits over a dummy parse duration. If you don't count the rolling through the dummy then there's almost no difference (~1%) between the actual parses of lethality and madness. If you compare madness to hybrid snipers, then you see roughly a 3,4% difference in damage. Deception on the other hand is a single target burst spec. Therefore i will compare it to carnage (although carnage has more hits over a dummy duration). The difference in damage output on a dummy, between the 2 specs is (surprsingly) 3,4% aswell. I think a actual dps buff for assassins should be somewhere in that region for pve (3-3,5%). A 10% flat buff would giving Deception more sustained dps then carnage, while having superior burst and an even more superior sub 30% phase aswell. With a 10% flat buff madness would go over the top, making it the highest parsing spec in the game (let aside concealment operatives, but that spec has a lot of problems in actual pve encounters anyway). Not quite the position you want an aoe spec to have. Even worse: That suggestion would buff sorceror dps by ~10% aswell (and would buff them to OPness aswell) and would force them to take that set-bonus aswell. Most likely Juggernauts and Marauders would also take that set-bonus aswell, depending on their spec and the amount of Force Damage their attacks actually do. As long as their amount of non-weapon damage is over 20% (true for most of the warrior specs afaik) a flat 10% damage increase from a willpower set-bonus will be favorable over their current set Bonus. You can't create set-bonuses that are 5 times stronger then normally. That will just break the game and will force half of the dps classes in the game to take that set bonus.

My statement (and the old thread) was about the topic of enrage timers not being tight for 16 man NiM. If you remember or look the thread up it was about guilds getting away with using less then 10 dps on 16 man NiM fights (while 8 man guilds couldn't do that for a single boss). And yes, i know that 16 man NiM Cartel Warlords was bugged and that they just simply doubled some of the damage which quadrubles the actual damage. My point was, that guilds could get away with that by simplying taking more healers, because you didn't need 10 dps for the Encounter (obvious example: DG NiM. Same enrage timer on 16 and 8 man NiM, but just a 62% hp increase for 16 man NiM). Simply 16 man guilds could get away with tighter healing/mechanic checks because they had a lighter dps check. I wonder why you think it's problematic that weaking blast is consumed by another agent. It's only lowering your numbers on Parsec but the group's dps stays the same or? (unless it's the corrosive dart of an operative healer) In my opinion the Engineering tree should be reworked completely (+ it needs 2 good top Tier abilities). It has 18 good points in the bottom and rolling for pve. Corrosive Grenade is stronger then Plasma Probe (because of having 0 cooldown and being independant of Position). Make it an aoe spec (with aoe damage similar to smash or ap) with lower sustained single target damage. Give it better Orbital damage Get rid of rolling Rework and drastically improve Plasma Probe Remove EMP Discharge and all related talents and give the sniper other talents that are also properly usable in pve. Suggestions: Scatter Bomb Talent is now related to Orbital Strike (When Orbital Strike hits Targets it now Drops Scatter Bombs hitting for X damage).

Seeing that Bioware slowly starts to ban posts with personal attacks, i guess i don't need to answer that my statement: most 16 man guilds (if we can call 3 guilds most guilds but nevermind) used 5-6 healers for previous NiM Progression is still completely true. About the actual thread: I don't think it's needed to give powertechs another defensive cooldown unless they really buff enraged defense that much for juggernauts (then assassins will need something aswell tough). In current content, the overall tank balance in pve is very good. The only thing i mainly see, is that dps threat is getting significantly higher with each new tier (compared to tank threat). One of the suggestions was to tie the threat of high threat tank abilities (like Force Pull) to mainhand damage, so that tanks don't lose more and more threat with each new tier of gear.

Math is a bit incorrect (the 1000 damage tick is correct). You don't lose a gcd every 18 seconds, but instead your dot rotation is 1 gcd faster. Little example: 180 seconds parse, one player reapplys dots every 18 seconds excactly after they ran out. The other one reapplys always 1 gcd too early (16,5 seconds). Player 1: Loses 10 gcd for dots (180/18 =10 ) Player 2: Loses 11 gcd for dots (180/16,5=~11) So over a 3 Minute fight, player 2 loses 1 full gcd (as the average damage of assassins is around 3,5k a gcd is around 5k) and the 10 last ticks from the dots (~10k, it's probably a bit more for 78 geared assassins tough ). That's 15k damage over 180 seconds is 83 dps lost per dot (if we calculate with 5k for gcd + 10k from dots). For delaying dots: Delaying an ability for another one that does similar dps may not affect your dps negatively. If we talk about abilities you should use on cooldown (assassinate, deathfield, dots) and these abilities deal similar dps and these abilties don't affect procs/force or anything similar the abiltiy with the lowest cooldown wins. Reason for that: The probabilty of using an ability that deals above average dps more often is higher, when this ability has a shorter cooldown.

All Guilds told us that they used 5 healers for NiM Progression in excactly this thread. You yourself said that your guild used 5 healers for NiM Progression and still you say i lie when i say excactly the same . As you don't provide actual topic to the other 3 stuff i guess we can call the actual discussion about tank dps closed.

Another way of saying: I am completely wrong, i guess. I said every 16 man nim used more then 4 healers for Progression. You say Intrepid, Severity and Chosen used more then 4 healers for Progression and you tell me i was proven wrong. I guess that is your standard logic then . Then another few random insults... You said you want a challenge like the Raptus challenge, which is a dummy fight. If you now want something else fine.

These values are included (i am pretty sure of this ). The reason for the difference in dtps is that Force Scream's Sonic Barrier is not included in the dtps (it's included in the other sections tough). Without Sonic Barrier juggs have by far the worst mitigation (pretty obvious without having anything similar to 20% shield or 25% absorb talents). You should instead look at the relic heals req. lines (that is the required healing per second after relics and mitigation and Sonic Barrier and all that stuff ): Assassin: relic heals req 1515.035434 Jugg: relic heal req 1525.809705 PT: relic heals req 1448.689858 The PT one is significantly lower because of Shoulder Cannon and a pretty large average of their AoE Heal included. For me it looks like KBN's flat 120 hps for Powertechs.

It does make a lot of sense. Pre 2.0 stuff is completely irrelevant to a thread of current class Balance (how can somebody even think lvl 50 stuff that was over 1 year ago still matters for current class Balance ). I say a tank DPS difference of 100 (that's roughly 10% dps difference, although it wouldn't matter if it was 20%) doesn't matter because the variance of damage from even a single dps is a lot higher then that. Given that DPS do a lot more damage then tanks and their variance in damage (because of crit, ect...), tank dps differences are completely unimportant. Now you say: Tanks could aswell do 0 damage instead of 1000, so tank DPS is important (they can't because 0 damage means 0 threat but nevermind). Sorry, but that is the "logic" of a stupid person, that is not getting the actual topic. It's like: One can drive 60 or 65 miles on the motorway, because of traffic jams it's anyway not very sure when excactly you reach your Destination but you will reach it. Because of the variance on some days you will be faster with 60 miles, on other days you will be faster with 65 miles. Stupid Person says: I can instead just stop right on the motorway, crash and i will never reach my Destination, therefore you are wrong. I said that every 16 man nim group used more then 4 healers for progression (not for every Boss tough). Which was completely true. I remember you were simply not able to understand that a boss has a much easier enrage timer if he has 62% health more, but a group has 150% more dps and so on.... For the record: We did beat NiM 16 man Dread Guards with 6 dps. Your own Quote: You want a tank challenge compared to dps/healer challenge as you say. So you find a dummy fight awesome.

Fellow Feeling (easy to spot typo for a native speaker....). If you are either unable to read or unable to understand my topic about raid dps via variance that's okay for me, not everyone is able to understand it i guess. But: It's not okay that you instead start lieing about the topic with your pre 2.0 stuff (when it's clear that pre 2.0 is neither topic of my post, my Quote or this thread) Previously you said tank dps was the only way to push out enough damage to actually beat it (which is wrong as there were variances for different dps for over 300 dps in actual kills ; 100 tank dps difference didn't matter). Now you say that if tanks would've dealt 0 damage you wouldn't have beaten the fight. Sorry but again that has nothing to do with the actual topic (tank dps difference) + just because tanks actually are able to deal damage they are not the most important dps factor for that fight. I would suggest you search for some other player or probably for another Server. That's definitly not the case on my Server. Also i don't get what that paragraph has to do with the whole topic (very likely: nothing). I suggest you reread my comment. I said: dummy fights are boring instead of awesome You say: I don't have creativity and knowledge. Now let's search the coherence. Oh there's no coherence between your Quote and your Response, it's just an Insult. All in all your big wall of text doesn't have a single bit of context about the actual topic: Tank dps difference. I suggest you try to understand the actual topic a bit more + get some arguments first, instead of randomly insulting other people.

Ah, but then from 55,7% (pre armor squish) to 29% squsih means you just calculate with an average of 47,9% armor. With just 4% i/e damage that seems not enough armor for me. Some more insight into that part would be appreciated (i run pretty similar calculations).

If people think, that 100 dps are very important when we have a raid dps over 15000 even in 8 man mode, they have my fellow feeling. The single variance of damage of a single dps is much higher, let alone the variance of 4 dps or a whole raid. I suggest you try some dummy parsing, multiply the results with the number of dps in your raid and then tell me again that you are able to recognize a dps difference of 100 in your variance of your different tries. No. From NiM pre nerf dread guard, to...... that paragraph. So you wanna tell me that you can compare slight differences in tank dps, but tanks can't dps? I disagree. So, you find a dummy dps check in the raptus phase awesome for tanks and that Bioware shall Balance tank dps around that? (Consequently that means to completely get rid of Saber Reflect for example.) Yeah, that will be a very interesting mechanic . I suggest you buy a dummy for your ship, then you can have that fight 24/7.

In your calculations you have 55,7% for armor squish for juggernaut tanks. Did that influence the other results in your calculation then or is that just a typo?

Well if you want to compare fight dps then you also have to account group composition. And for assassin tanks, fight dps depends on the group composition (although even with using Discharge in their Rotation Assassins are ahead dps wise). Also jugg dps depends on defense procs, which depends on the incoming damage/boss and on the co-tank, and so on... You can of course compare tank dps after your rules, but such a comparision doesn't make much sense in my opinion. Tank dps depends on: a) Group composition b) Boss fight Very roughly tank dps is okay in this game (it's very unimportant anyway and even if it would be really unbalanced no one would really care or recognize it), it's very difficult to balance that excactly anyway unless you wanna take away unique abilities like saber reflect from tanks.

I think you undervalue sin tank damage. Especially without using Discharge (when you have a juggernaut or a sin co-tank) sin tanks can go above 1500 DPS on Nefra without using any non-tank gear. As long as Saber Reflect is not able to reflect a considerable amount of damage, sin tanks are normally ahead dps-wise.

Some stuff: Your pre armor squish for juggernauts/pts looks wrong for me. In current 78 gear, Juggernauts should have 0,5233 while powertechs should have 0,5247 armor Rating (afaik). If i add your armor rating for 81 gear (6627) for Juggernauts i get 0,545 armor rating. That should also change the spike calculation, as currently Juggernauts are ahead in your calculation, while they have lower total_squish, shield/absorb, armor then powertechs. Especially as you are not calculating with sonic barrier, which is fine, this result seems weird.

@countpopeula: All top tanks (i know) run either full mitigation, or full mitigation with B mods (as mods give a > 1:1 Ratio for endurance : mitigation) for 8 man content. For 16 man Content that's a bit different, mainly because raid healing is more then 80% of the required healing in 16 man content (while on 8 man Content it's about 50%/50%). If the heals you receive are a minority of the total heals, your own gearing doesn't matter much anyway. In fact a lot of tanks used additional hp for 16 man content, because the bosses spike higher in 16 man content. They can do that, because the damage they take doesn't matter that much compared to 8 man. Oh and: There is no world ranking of guilds in this game. If you call your guild a top 10 guild, because you were posting on a spreadsheet that you killed tfb nim 1 month after it was released and styrak nim over 2 months after it was released, feel free to do so, but don't expect that anyone takes that seriously (that's my opinion).

Crushing Blow Bonus is inside KBN's armor calculation. 1% defense Chance doesn't equal 1% damage reduction. Not at all! 1% Defense is more then 1% Damage Reduction against melee/range damage (unless you have excactly 0% defense Chance and 0% Damage Reduction against all other types of damage a tank can get.

Update for: Skagor - Vengeance 4/36/6 - 3747 - 4m 26.880 Parse: http://www.torparse.com/a/600819/time/1393192232/1393192499/0/Overview AMR: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/cf338b2f-70f0-4df3-8560-762a2c7df571

Skagor - Vengeance 4/36/6 - 3726 - 4m 27.912 (although the dummy died half a second before that, but i guess that was just a bug out, that time is from enter combat to the last shatter hit) Parse: http://www.torparse.com/a/596813/time/1392851412/1392851680/0/Log AMR:

For the record, we didn't run 16 man nim sv and tfb pre 2.5 (cause we are mainly an 8 man guild ). When we did run nightmare 16 man kephess this week, i felt less squishy then our juggernaut tank.

Keep in mind that full lethality uses roll in their dummy parses, so in a raid their dps is reduced, compared to hybrid, unless you play sniper as a melee class that rolls through a boss.