I added a bit of Information about snapthreat on the Corrupted Clones in the NiM Dread Fortress Section.

Yes and marksmann is a spec for these fights (for other fights you have got dot specs and other specs with ramp-up time). You can also take other fights as examples, like Calphayus, Dread Guards, Draxus, Corruptor Zero..... 1. Marksmann is still outperforming similar specs (ranged, fast target switching, Zero build up time) like Arsenal or Lightning by a wide margin, in terms of single target dps, defensive cooldowns, movement and so on.... 2. If you would buff such a spec to similar damage numbers like lethality specs (ramp up time, bad target switching, less defensive cooldowns), you simply create an overpowered spec (we had that previously were 4 marksmann sniper were the best dps combination for Everything!) I would actually suggest a nerf to the defensive cooldowns of marksmann spec (60% aoe reduction + ballistic dampers is just crazy). It's not getting into my mind, why one single ranged spec has a 60% aoe reduction and all the other ranged classes have 0% aoe reduction. Previously (before the Orbital Strike nerf), marksmann was crazy overpowered for almost every bossfight. Now, it's just crazy overpowered for some bossfights.

I can't understand why people think marksmann damage output is too low (or the marksmann spec needs buffs), while it currently deals the highest damage of all specs in the Brontes Nightmare Mode fight + has the best defensive abilities of any spec in the game for that fight. Marksmann Sniper is still the best ranged turret (non dot) spec in the game, heavily outperforming similar specs (Arsenal, lightning), in terms of single target damage output, movement, defensive cooldowns , and so on....

I use more then 26-27% defense Rating (~900-1000) for the first three bosses of Nightmare Dread Fortress as an Assassin Tank. And i do that, because it's the best way to mitigate the most damage on these bosses (and i have got the data to show that ).

Generally we use all three healing classes, but we never use double healing classes for any run. The runs should be with all 3 possible combinations, but i don't recall how often which combination was used. For nefra most of our tanks, swap their gear to a very heavy defense setup (i use 900 defense rating for nefra as an assassin for example, juggs and powertechs will generally be substantially higher then 1000 defense rating).

I am still editing the post

This time my spreadsheet is just using data from tanks from Drop it Like it's Hoth. This spreadsheet covers multiple logs from 4 different tanks for each boss (the spreadsheet is more or less including every single boss kill DiLiH made on the live server) and includes all different tanking classes (Assassin Juggernaut and Powertech) in the game. This time I am also using the individual gear set from each tanking log plus an individual surviveability chart for each tanking class and damage type, according to the current gear the tank wears. The surviveability chart is (generally speaking) based on dipstiks calculations for tank mitigation. A big thank goes to Fuyri, Lacedaemon and Maoulkrieger for providing their combatlogs and itemizations. I am posting: - the average ratio in a boss-per-boss way - DTPS - Total Damage (DTPS * time on average) and the according ratio So, here are the numbers (if there's anything missing just write in this thread or pm me): The average (without taking DTPS into account): m/r f/t i/e Nefra: 0,962291883 0 0,037708117 Draxus: 0,771131449 0,109340183 0,119528368 Grob'thok 0,897197421 0,09469417 0,009806446 Corruptor 0,346916737 0,58854524 0,064538023 Brontes 0,362103122 0,433745322 0,204151557 Overall 0,667928122 0,245264983 0,087146502 So in words, 66,8% of the damage is melee/ranged energy/kinetic 24,5% of the damage is force/tech energy/kinetic 8,7% of the damage is force/tech internal/elemental Incoming DTPS (pre and post mitigation): pre post Nefra: 7831,138162 1888,289689 Draxus: 3590,644971 1056,374953 Grob'thok 5506,259562 1334,668536 Corruptor 4005,152616 1354,34223 Brontes 3552,951446 1443,691374 Overall 4897,229352 1415,473356 Average fight time: Nefra: 167,5068 Draxus: 419,1683333 Grob'thok 384,9291667 Corruptor 391,0040143 Brontes 449,8218 Overall 362,4860229 Total Damage: m/r f/t i/e Nefra: 1311768,894 1262304,559 0 49464,33454 Draxus: 1505084,668 1160618,122 164566,2331 179900,3133 Grob'thok 2119519,905 1901627,792 200706,1789 20784,95799 Corruptor 1566030,751 543282,2777 921679,9441 101068,5288 Brontes 1598195,015 578711,404 693209,611 326273,9999 Overall 8100599,232 5446544,155 1980161,967 677492,1346 m/r: 0,672363118 f/t: 0,244446356 i/e: 0,083634817 I am not sure on how to account the hybrid. On these values I calculated the DTPS and the ratios from the additional 30% area reduction back. Here are the values were i didn't calculate anything back: Ratios: m/r f/t i/e Nefra: 0,962291883 0 0,037708117 Draxus: 0,771131449 0,109340183 0,119528368 Grob'thok 0,897197421 0,09469417 0,009806446 Corruptor 0,346916737 0,58854524 0,064538023 Brontes 0,367700074 0,422527321 0,209772605 Overall 0,669047513 0,243021383 0,088270712 So in words, 66,9% of the damage is melee/ranged energy/kinetic 24,3% of the damage is force/tech energy/kinetic 8,8% of the damage is force/tech internal/elemental pre post Nefra: 7831,138162 1888,289689 Draxus: 3590,644971 1056,374953 Grob'thok 5506,259562 1334,668536 Corruptor 4005,152616 1354,34223 Brontes 3116,016322 1279,170633 Overall 4809,842327 1382,569208 Total Damage: Total Damage: m/r f/t i/e Nefra: 1311768,894 1262304,559 0 49464,33454 Draxus: 1505084,668 1160618,122 164566,2331 179900,3133 Grob'thok 2119519,905 1901627,792 200706,1789 20784,95799 Corruptor 1566030,751 543282,2777 921679,9441 101068,5288 Brontes 1401652,071 515387,5703 592236,2942 294028,2064 Overall 7904056,288 5383220,321 1879188,65 645246,341 with Ratios: m/r: 0,681070595 f/t: 0,237749907 i/e: 0,081634836

@Leafy: Absorb/Defense and Shield Dimishing Returns are not very grave. Generally, on a fight were a tank is getting constant damage over a longer period of time (such as nefra) there's generally no reason to stack hp. Stacking hp means you will take more damage on average, which means that the healers will use more global cooldowns on the tank (instead of the raid), which will put your healers at a disadvantage. The TTK is generally irrelevant during such fights, as healers will generally put out a constant flow of healing. Variance in healing and dtps is generally not big enough as long as Bioware changes their design of Operation bosses (had a conversation with KBN about that some time ago). For short burn phases were it's all about surviving that might be a bit different tough. A good example is the final Phase of Brontes. At the beginning of that phase usually everyone is at 100% health. That whole phase take between 85 and 100 seconds of straight dpsing, so it's very short. I generally use B mods there, as it improves the TTK, while not really affecting my overall mitigation that much. According to my calculations any more health stacking (with enhancement and other similar 1:1 Ratio items) will still have a negative Impact on that final phase (even if that phase is not even 2 min long)

Repeatedly exploiting bugs on an operation boss, to give oneself a gearing advantage, for the other operation bosses (and then claiming kills on them), is pretty much hitting the nail on the head of these rules.

Out of Biowares Rules: Bug Exploitation There may be times when the game has a bug in it that, if exploited, can give an unfair advantage to a player. At BioWare we do our best to make a game that has as few of these bugs as possible, however due to the constantly evolving nature of Star Wars™: The Old Republic™, these may crop up at times. Please refrain from taking advantage of any mechanic in the game that gives an ‘edge’ or unfair benefit in any way as this can result in temporary or permanent account suspension.

That's wrong. Your opener guarantees 2 wasted global cooldowns, because you simply slow down the whole Force Lightning Rotation by 2 global cooldowns. It loses a very significant amount of dps + threat (wasting 30% of your global cooldowns up to the first Force Lightning simply does that). Maximizing mitigation at a point were everyone is topped off + bubbled/hotted up is also pretty senseless, especially because we are talking about a 5% dmg reduction (+5% def Chance) for excactly 1,5 seconds. If i would use your openener against my dps i would lose threat on every single pull.

Our first kill with everyone alive at the very end. Brontes NiM - Zah'ik - Marksmann Sniper - Drop it Like it's Hoth - 2673 http://www.torparse.com/a/654410/time/1398288724/1398289165/0/Log (Cropped to the Death of Brontes because orbs were still alive afterwards; Manifest Supremacy fades is the line) Want to have proper crit rates on actual kills (and not below average ones).

After Knightriders kill as a shadow dps, every single dps class has killed Brontes now (same for healers and tanks). Maybe the game is not that imbalanced after all

From last week: NiM Nefra: Zah'ik - Hybrid Sniper - Drop it Like it's Hoth - 3631 http://www.torparse.com/a/649141/2/0/Overview NiM Draxus: Skagor - Rage Juggernaut - Drop it Like it's Hoth - 3169 http://www.torparse.com/a/649138/4/0/Overview (we were splitting subtherots up, so i didn't do dps for ~20 seconds in that phase)

Dot specs generally have a lot less variance then specs with less attacks over a dummy Duration. If you throw a dice 10 times it's a lot easier to get exceptional high results (top dummy parses), then if you throw a dice 100 times. @aniki: Your idea is very good. It should help making dummy parses more reliable to compare class balance. Edit: @Evolixe: I don't think you would need 100 parses, 5-10 consequent parses from the same player should be enough .

The variance of specs that have less attacks over a dummy rotation is higher, then the variance of specs with more attacks. Therefore the general top parse of burst classes (with less attacks over a dummy Rotation) is not comparable to the top parse of dot specs. That's simple school mathematic. The variance of a dot spec like hybrid lethality is less then 100 dps, the variance of specs with less attacks (for example marksmann) is easily three times as high. Therefore, while having a pretty similar top parse, marksmann deals considerable lower damage on average. Therefore i say top parses of different specs, can't be compared unless both the specs have roughly the same number of hits (especially regarding their hardest hitting abilities). And no, i meant that burst specs get huge advantages on raid fights, compared to dot specs. On every raid fights dot specs have the disadvantage that they actually need ramp-up time to provide their dps. If a burst spec can deal as much dps as a dot spec from the first second it starts hitting a target, was is the point of the dot spec then?

Offtopic:

No it was never the goal, that specs perform within 5% on a dummy parse! Never, never, never! And no, Bioware did never say that all specs should perform within 5% on a dummy! They did mean performance in a raid. If that would've been the goal, every player would play Smash and AP, cause these specs do over 30% their damage against multiple enemys. What is the point of picking vengeance then (for example), when smash would deal the excact same damage on a dummy? Smash has higher burst, deals insane aoe damage and doesn't rely on constant 3 sec channel in melee range. And so on.... Or they would play marksmann because it has the highest raid Utility, burst and best ranged dps cooldowns of any spec. If all specs in the game would perform with the same dps on the dummy, every dot spec in this game would be dead! What is the point of picking a dot spec, when i can pick another spec that deals the same damage instantly and doesn't need to sustain damage for more then 20 seconds on a target before it does the same damage? When the day comes (god forbid it) that every spec deals the excact same damage on the dummy 2 AP Powertechs and 2 Marksmann Sniper will be the best raid combination by far and 10+ dps specs are completely dead and utter thrash. You can not compare a spec with 200 attacks in a 5 min fight, with a spec that does 1000 attacks in the same time. Of course the dot spec will do more consistent damage on the dummy, and the burst spec will have a higher variance in crit and will therefore get the ultimate higher parse after a number of tries on the dummy. The only reliable way of comparing specs, is to compare dot specs with a similar amount of attacks during a 5 min parse. Otherwise a dummy comparision would not make any sense. Edit: Powertechs have a passive ability that heals them for 2,5% whenever they get hit by an aoe. That allows their relics (sa and fr) to double proc and increases their raid dps by quite a substantial amount. Edit2: About the top parses you talk about: Top parse for a marauder it's a dotsmash hybrid that according to Bioware will be nerfed, your top parse for mercenary uses a currently bugged spec, your top parse for Snipers does 3% of his damage with his most essential raid Utility by rolling through the dummy, your Juggernaut top parse is a spec that constantly has to channel 3 seconds in melee range. I don't know much about Concealment operatives. I know that they have about Zero raid Utility, require constant positioning in melee range behind a target, have no aoe in their Rotation. If you don't look at bugged specs and Dotsmash (which according to Bioware will be nerfed) Concealment is over 5% ahead over any other spec in this game on a "dummy fight ". Still almost no one plays them (for good reasons). Sure we could buff every other spec in the game to the level of concealment on a dummy fight. For example smash will need about an 800 dps increase (currently they are at 3400 sustained). I suggest we give them 18k smashes (instead of 10k). Then they are on the same balancing level like concealment. The same for AP Powertechs, completely underpowered, also just ~3400 dps. They need 800 dps more, therefore their Flamethrower needs to do 12000 more damage, hey then it will just hit for 30k thats ok i guess.

As far as i know the 100% proc chance is just present for mercs, cause all the other 3 classes (vanguard, pts and commandos) don't have two weapon attacks that could add proc change to that ability.

The highest hybrid sniper (gunslinger) parse currently is 3790 (i actually thought that was lower when i calculated 3,4%). The highest madness assassin parse is 3647. That's a 3,8% dps difference. If you calculate with pure lethality snipers (without rolling) then the difference gets much lower anyway (close to 1% currently). Same damage goes for Lethality Operatives (dot spec with some aoe in single target Rotation) and Madness Sorcs + Annihilation Marauder. Pyro Mercs are currently bugged. Pyro Powertechs are on roughly the same Level as Madness Assassins but will be buffed. Vengeance Juggernauts deal slightly more single target damage but have no aoe damage in the rotation and are required to permanently stand in Position and channel 3 seconds. In terms of their dot specs all 8 dps classes are really good balanced (although no one wants to hear that). 2. Topic: I personally would consider it bad design if you have to make little changes for pve, pve-only, but yeah as long as it gives slight pve buffs without affecting pvp too much it's fine.

@Aelanis: You can't straight buff Deception, unless you completely want to screw pvp balance. Also madness can't become a pure aoe spec (especially not exclusive for assassins and especially not with a sustained damage increase). It currently deals too much single target sustained damage for a heavy aoe spec, compared to for example the 2 rage specs. As i calculated previously in the other questions thread both assassins specs should get a 3-3,5% damage increase. That will give deception assassins (huge burst single target spec) and madness assassins (sustained dot spec with a bit aoe in their single target rotation) the same damage as similar specs (carnage marauders, hybrid snipers) have. As deception assassins can't have a straight buff (regarding pvp) you have to nerf some aspects of the spec for pvp in order to give it the additional sustained damage.

A rare guild df/dp hm raid were i actually dpsed. - Nefra - Hybrid Lethality Sniper - Drop it Like it's Hoth - 3527 http://www.torparse.com/a/634388/time/1396377852/1396377992/0/Log (cropped to Nefra's Death) - Grob'Thok - Hybrid Lethality Sniper - Drop it Like it's Hoth - 3700 http://www.torparse.com/a/634388/12/0/Overview (did just attack Boss like in NiM) - Corruptor Zero - Marksmann Sniper - Drop it Like it's Hoth - 3223 http://www.torparse.com/a/634388/15/0/Overview - Brontes - Marksmann Sniper - Drop it Like it's Hoth - 2734 http://www.torparse.com/a/634388/21/0/Overview - Bestia - Marksmann Sniper - Drop it Like it's Hoth - 3195 http://www.torparse.com/a/634388/25/0/Overview - Tyrans - Hybrid Lethality Sniper - Drop it Like it's Hoth - 3325 http://www.torparse.com/a/634388/time/1396382611/1396382876/0/Damage+Dealt (cropped because we chain pulled) - Calphayus - Marksmann Sniper - Drop it Like it's Hoth - 2754 http://www.torparse.com/a/634388/32/0/Overview - Raptus - Marksmann Sniper - Drop it Like it's Hoth - 2686 http://www.torparse.com/a/634388/36/0/Overview - Dread Masters - Hybrid Lethality Sniper - Drop it Like it's Hoth - 3357 http://www.torparse.com/a/634388/42/0/Overview

Yeah, Strong Swipe seems to be one of the few low accuracy f/t attacks (i can only think of Styrak Lightning adds aswell) in the game. Every boss (apart from Nefra) in Dread Fortress has adds, were you can use Diversion on.

Yes, it was super useful. About Diversion: For PvE Operations Marksmann has a few completely unviable Talents: Heavy Shots Imperial Demarcation apart from Styrak NiM and even there it was not really needed Debilitating Shots and some Talents who only have a very limited use in Operations: Cover Screen Snap Shot There are definitly enough talents you can glady sacrifice without losing any dps at all for Diversion. The problem i have got with Diversion is that it's not working on every add in an Operation, because some of the adds have high accuracy attacks. Therefore these adds won't miss attacks even when you use Diversion on them. But that's more a Operation problem, then a Diversion problem.

First of all, i've killed every boss with my sniper in this game (excluding brontes pts). I play every sniper spec for pve bosses and i will regularly switch specs during an operation. My opinion about snipers in pve: Snipers are still the strongest ranged dps class in this game. Their amount of defensive cooldowns (ballistic shield, ballistic dampers, 60% aoe reduction, entrench, Evasion, roll....) is unmatched by sorcs or mercs and their dps + their dps uptime is very good. Overall snipers are in a very good spot for pve. Snipers have 3 good specs for pve: - Marksmann is a single target burst spec, that is very good for fast target switching a for fights with a short uptime on mobs - Lethality (hybrid) is a very good spec for sustained dot damage (~3700 dps on average) and it's dps gets a lot better if there are multiple strong enemys that can be multi-dotted + it has aoe spells in his rotation - Engineering is a good spec for AoE Snipers have a perfect spec for each fight in this game. Because they have 3 viable dps spec they can react more flexible for each Operation Boss then for example mercs or sorcs. My concerns for snipers in pve: Engineering - Engineering without rolls is basically a bad lethality hybrid (plasma probe instead of corrosive grenade but without cull) build. That requires you to: - Roll-in-Place (known bug) - Roll against a wall - Hope that the Boss is big enough to effectively use this spec. My suggestion: Tie cluster bombs to Orbital Strike and make EMP discharge reset the cooldown of Orbital Strike! That will: a) give every "Orbital Lover" the perfect spec b) remove roll from the standard Rotation Currently Engineering without rolls deals ~3,2k on the dummy. As it's a heavy aoe spec (similar to smash or AP) it shouldn't really deal more then 3,55k sustained damage on the dummy. So the Cluster bombs should deal 350 additional damage per second. In this case Orbital Strike would be used every 30 seconds on average. Therefore the Cluster Bombs should deal ~10k damage in full 180 gear. Engineering would still be clunky, but atleast people would be able to deal good constant aoe dps with the spec and it would be viable for raids. The other specs are fine - All the other specs (marksmann and lethality hybrid) are currently very good for raids. I personally don't have any concerns with these specs. I don't think that you can buff both of these specs at all. You can't buff marksmann sustained dps to the level of lethality (hybrid). It has the superior burst (by far), the better defensive utilities and the easier target switching and it doesn't rely on 18/21 second long dots to tick on your target. Marksmann sustained dps is on par with what other similar specs (Arsenal, lighting) are providing, it's still the absolute best spec for a lot of Operation bosses in df/dp. We can't go back to the old days, were marksmann was one of the strongest single target sustained dps classes and therefore the best dps composition was 4 marksmann snipers (and were you would take a sniper over any other player class). The average sustained dps of lethality hybrid (i maintain an average of ~3700 dps on the dummy currently, my old dummy parses were with pvp relics, ect...) are on par with the average sustained dps of assault commandos and are a little higher then madness sorcs.