Awesome, when we do our (probably last) sv hm today, i should try that out . But for NiM (as Huge Grenade is not migated by Force Shroud anymore afaik) when you time a Force Cloak perfectly it could be viable (idk when nim sv launches we will see) @ Leafy: you are right

On NiM it shouldnt work anymore but on HM it still works (afaik).

I think he means the use of Force Cloak on The Writing Horror fight to "cheese the adds away" . For the topic: other abilities you can cheese away as a Sin Tank (with Force Shroud): Huge Grenade from Titan 6, The End from Sunder, Thundering Blast from Styrak (SV HM),Force Scream/Discharge/Force Leech from Dread Guards. Fury of the Masters from Kephess, Scream from TFB (TFB HM) and many more

@Fire-Breath: I can just speak for myself, but i did "reverse engineer" the migated dmg from the combatlogs with the current tanking migation i have for a specific attacktype (m/r , i/e ...) to get the unmigated dmg the boss does, like you suggested. For the second topic: That's the same thing i alrdy suggested a page before for tfb NiM (Beware that my results may have a huge variance as i dont have time to analyze hundreds of combatlogs, nor to analyze every possible sequence of attacks a boss can have) TWH: 0,662 DG: 0,516 Op9: 0,790 Kephess: 0,293 TFB: 0,824 These numbers (the ratio between m/r and f/t attacks for e/k dmg for a bossfight) suggest that you more or less use kbn/dipsticks numbers for the Op9 and the TFB NiM fight (~520 defense rating for 2400 gear budget i think), to use no defense rating (unless you can't avoid it) for the DG and Kephess fight and to use a little bit of defense rating for the twh fight (about ~400 for 2400 stat Budget, can't be more excact there due to variance). You can also use an average number out of these 5 bosses for average gear budget you should have (like kbn did for sv hm). With my numbers that would be 0,624, which means almost no defense rating at all for sin tanks in a tfb NiM operation on average.

That's again wrong. You have the the same times on DG Fight aswell where the tank takes no damage (you forgot about force leech time) Force Shrouding Force Leech dmg is a very bad idea (again misinformation) as thats just about 10k dmg migated. It's way better to Force Shroud a Force Scream and a Discharge (thats about 25k dmg migated). That happens about 3 and 5 sec after you taunt kelsara after he force leeches the other tank. KBN has 1550 Damage taken on twh so thats again over a 100 Points lower then your 1690 dps you are assuming (again misinformation). Another wrong part is where you are assuming that the spikes tanks get from twh fight are higher then the ones tanks get on third Phase kel'sara. On Kel'sara fights tanks can get a 17k voltaic slash and a 17k force scream attacks within 1,5 -1,6 seconds (again misinformation both one of these attack are not I/E ! its f/t e/k other is m/r e/k analyze combatlogs plz) Thats so much more spike dmg then anything on twh ... Edit: I never said that any screw-up is the tanks fault, i said that i dont believe that 37 out of 41 tries on dg from kbn where mechanic wipes. Don't twist my words around.... I looked at twh parses. The biggest possible spike within 1,5-1,6 s is Nasty Bite (all 3 Nasty Bite Stacks unmigated=13K) and a following melee attack (2 stacks both unmigated for 12k). First awall the spikes on these fights are highly unlikely as these attacks are split in 3 or 2 stacks contrary to dg nim fight (misinformation from you). Second the dmg these attacks do is still 10k lower then dg nim spikes. Third the m/r to f/t ratio from this spikes is about 50/50 so you dont want any defense rating for these spikes aswell The rest of my arguments, including the little spreadsheet about the average dmg Ratio from e/k attacks, you should read them before you make such statements about me misinforming any1. I did answer to all your "arguments" , you it seems do not even read what i write. ( well i did not answer to your Statement with the low DtPS maintenance healing on dg NiM fight:rolleyes: )

I am rly shocked at the amount of misinformation, lies, twisted truth you and kitru are giving to the community in this thread. Operator 9 is nowwhere near a tank check like dread guards. You get (out of combat logs) not more then 1,1k damage overall and not more then 1,5 k damage during some points of the fight. Operator is a way bigger raid healing issue and not sth. tanks should itemize themselves for. On the Dread Guard fight tanks get like 700 dmg more on average during the fight The only thing you could do to optimize your gear for Op9 is, as Op9 is just about spike damage (according to Kitru), stacking hp (Underworld instead of veracity, B mods....) and that's contradicting to the things you tell ppl in your spreadsheets ("don't stack endurance"). The real check for tfb NiM is the Dread Guard fight (every guild that cleared dg did also clear op9 so this fight is way easier) and either you optimize for this fight or for the whole operation-damage on average (i posted the numbers above they're completely different to your "data"). Your combatlogs prove you wrong,too. I analyzed the last 41 combatlogs you posted for dg NiM fight (all wipes). You did met the enrage timer in just 4 of these fights. When this fight is no healing/tanking check like Kitru and you want to believe us, how the hell can you then wipe 37 times just to mechanics? I also find it not funny when you are again want people to believe that the m/r attacks (your beloved voltaic slash) are doing most of the steady damage tanks receive in dg NiM. We both know that is plain wrong (its abit over 50/50 but nowhere near the 79/20 your spreadsheet indicates) but you seem to find it good to spread misinformation and twist the truth. I think you just want to distract from the fact that your spreadsheet is completely wrong about everything for tfb NiM. You just want to take the only Boss in this Operation, which has miraculously the same percentage of m/r attacks like your spreadsheet, for the logs and then call him "The fight you should optimize for" in this Operation.

Scream is f/t e/k and Voltaic Slash is m/r. Now you simply turned post and pre-migation damage around (Force Scream is worse then Voltaic Slash as it cant be parried and you know that...). Second mistake is that Force Scream is not getting between vs and discharge but instead discharge and vs are getting between force scream hits. Try to stand next to kel'sara when you taunt her after force leech and look at your combat log afterwards... Third mistake it that your math is again wrong. Discharge is I/E attack and therefore not in the equation between shield and defense rating. Shield Rating is working against both of the attacks, defense rating has just an uptime of 50% (just for voltaic). If you read the thread closely you see all the math that shows you that when the percentage of m/r to f/t e/k dmg is smaller then 60/40 you want ZERO defense rating on your gear (which is the case here). So your not just wrong but utterly wrong. Defense Rating is not on par with absorb rating its way worse in this phase.

I find it not funny that your are not telling anything about force scream which is the MAIN damage on third phase a tank gets when kel'sara attacks him(and its f/t e/k). The average damage a tank gets from a force scream is more then double as high as from a voltaic slash hit and you get more force scream hits on third phase then voltaic slash hits as kel'saras Standard Rotation at this point is dc/fc/vs/fc/dc. Don't try to spread misinformation. Edit: I did find your twh parses on torparse you just took 1,55 k dmg there on average. So the Ratio from the parses is still the same for you, you are just a good tank

Yes normally its more dmg, try this one (or just scroll down ) http://www.torparse.com/a/327990/43/0/Damage+Taken

I did look at the twh and at the dg fight combat logs. At twh it's about 1,8k dmg, at dg it's about 2k dmg, so healers have to actually heal the tanks more at dg NiM fight then on twh. Thers a simple reason for that:. DG fight is more difficult then the twh fight so you need to be optimised for the dg fight and not for a fight that is way easier.

Are you serious?! The "portion" is about 60% of the whole dmg a healer has to heal (out of combat logs). Edit: When i take the ratio m/r to f/t in e/k i got following numbers for TFB NiM (i dont have a large amount of data for tfb NiM so thers a lot of variance in these results): TWH: 0,662 DG: 0,516 Op9: 0,790 Kephess: 0,293 TFB: 0,824 Altogether thats 0,617 which would mean that sin tank should not have any defense rating except for stim and ears (more or less the data i have is too small to rly go into excact detail) When i go for Kitru "idea" i get a 0,727 ratio (WTH +OP9) which would mean sth like veracity pieces + Fortunate Redoubt Relic but no mods/enhancements with defense rating for sin tanks.

Yes, i got the same numbers. You always have to have the Earpiece and the Stim i think. You can switch out the Veracity Implants for Underworld ones which is not that bad. Switching out the Fortunate Redoubt Relic is also not that bad as the ratio you are giving up defense rating for absorb rating is kinda okay for dg nim fight.

DG is not just around dmg. I've seen way more wipes during the fight then because of any enrage timer (after nerf). Every Guild that killed DG, did kill the whole instance (afaik), so its the hardest boss in this Operation. If a tank is not properly itemized (and itemized according to forum spreedsheets is about arcanian level for this boss) he's putting additional stress on the healers which hinders their dps, he's reducing his dmg-output (for sin tanks Lightning Reflexes, Discharge Uptime....). If you say a Tank should optimise his gear for twh instead of DG you are assuming that healers have less problems with the Dread Guard fight healing then with the twh fight healing as healing the tanks is a large part of their job.

@dipstik: First Topic: Especially for TFB NiM tanks should focus their gear around certain bosses (Dread Guards) and not on the average dmg in the whole instance, as the whole instance is not on the same difficult level (in my opinion). When guilds wipe 100 times on dg and 1 time on withering horror, its probably better when the gear is itemized for the dread guard fight. Second Topic: Completely away from the topic as all your assumptions with 0,001 reduced spikiness.... are made for 79% m/r attacks (which is an average number for SV HM). The variance of the attack types you see f.e. in tfb NiM is not in your later results, so i dont see any reason (when we have a 80% variance on the first formula) to use 10 numbers without variance for your "results". Third Topic: Yes when i use your formula defense rating becomes viable when m/r is over 60% off all e/k dmg. Still Dread Guard fight has just about 50% m/r (of all e/k dmg), so you absolutly dont want any defense rating (atleast for sin tanks) for DG fight.

Pushing up the stat Budget arbitrarily high is nonsense giving the current stat Budget (2,4 -2,6K) tanks are able to have. Could you please tell me how you are assuming a 79% m/r on dread guard NiM/HM fight (which is currently the fight i would optimize tank stats for). The only m/r attacks on this fight are afaik Saber Strike, Voltaic Slash and Assault from Kel'sara (and Legionaires) and Sweeping Slash, Battering Assault and Pummel from Ciphas. These attacks make afaik post migation not much more then 41% of the total damage Tanks receive in this fight.

@ KBN: That's plain wrong. You just want defense rating on your sin tank if the ratio between m/r and f/t attacks is over a certain level. Just do the maths with your spreadsheet and dont use 79% m/r attacks. In current Dread Guard Fight NiM u dont want any defense rating at all. Even if i count in the post migation (that means then 22,8% I/E damage, 37,4% f/t e/k dmg and 39,7 % m/r damage) thers still more then a 100% variance to the spreadsheet formulas (79% m/r) ("as far off...") If i for example take your Ratings {2400,{defense->522,shield->875,absorb->1002}} i get a migation of 0,422040 . If i use minimal defense rating (70 from stim) with 1297 a / 1032 s i get 0,417696 (more then half a gear Level difference in migation) on the dg NiM fight. Even if the parses i looked at are completely different to the average, it wont explain a ratio difference from 39,7% to 79%. Edit: For Withering Horror you have more m/r attackdmg post migation (about 67,5%) but thats still less then the spreadsheets assume. So for this Boss you want about 400 defense rating then. But i think you should optimize your gear for dread guard fight.

For TFB NiM its actually very good to go with a maximum. of absorb and shield rating (~1300 abs/1070 shield) and with minimal defense rating as a sin tank. The reason is that the attacktypes tanks face in TFB are completely different to the ones they are facing in HM SV. Some spreadsheets on the forum are assuming that 78% of the damage is m/r type (which defense rating is working on). That is just wrong. For TFB NiM dread guard fight for example its just about 28% m/r damage (+ 38% f/t i/e damage and 34% f/t e/k dmg out of combatlogs). So, practically speaking defense rating is worthless for 72% of the dmg dealt to tanks on the Dread Guard NiM fight and therefore is inferior to any shield and absorbtion rating you can get as a sin tank. For the other bosses in TFB NiM its about the same, although the difference in attacktypes is on a smaller scale (Withering Horror deals ~ 40% f/t e/k damage and about 58% m/r damage, so you want minimal defense rating there aswell).

No, you have worse stats when you drop your set bonus just for another armoring. Keep always 4 armorings with set bonus on your tank, its even better then for example wearing 4 pieces of verpine armorings.

Your armorreduction look like you are not wearing 4 armorings for the complete tanksetbonus (an additionial 2% reduction on every attacktype) or you missed some abilities in your skilltree. That will give you about as much damagereduction as a full set of 69 armorings compared to 63 armorings on your sin tank and its easily obtained via classic commendations. Another thing would be to look for mods/enchantments, earpieces... with acc or alacrity and replace them as quick as possible with gear that just has migation stats (absorb, shield, defense).

When i take your formula for Defense Rating, i get (for 2100 defensive stats Shadow from your formula): Defense Rating without Relic: =0,1 + 0,05 +0,06 + 0,3*(1-(1-(0,01/0,3))^((492/55)/1,2))=0,2769946 Defense Rating with Relic Proc: =0,1 + 0,05 +0,06 + 0,3*(1-(1-(0,01/0,3))^((1074/55)/1,2))=0,33720399 Therefore the additional Defense Rating is 0,060209, that times the 0,56 of the working dps, then times the 6/23 of the time it works, then times 0,61 of the damage it blocks, when we count a 39% armor rating gives us 0,00536545. Therefore when we take: total damage * migation= migated damage, 5137 dps on the tank are needed to be better as the Underworld Healing Relic, aswell as 3922 damage for the PVP Relic. But there are some other problems aswell: Atleast for SV, the Combat Logs tell me that about 90% of the boss damage is Energy/Kinetic. Therefore the damage would be 3196 for Underworld and 2440 for the PVP Relic. When i do the maths for the Absorb Proc Relic with your forumla i get even better results: 8,4% additional Absorb Rating when it Procs times 0,7 (0,9), of the damage type, times 0,555 for the Shield, times 6/23 for the percentage of time it procs nets 0,00853178 (0,010969). Therefore just 3230 (2512 with 90% energy/kinetic damage)for the Underworld and 2466 (1918) dps for the PVP Healing Relic would be needed).

Yes, but your maths seems to be incorrect. If i use your formula for defense rating, i get an increase in defense Rating from 5,43% from an active Proc Relic. But when i count your formula backwards it says that the Underworld Proc Defense Relic, just gives an increase of 1,46% to migation when active. Is Defense Rating really just working on 26,8% of all attacks? Edit: It seems that you counted the 6s /23s Time of the Proc Relic a second time when you did the maths. The percentage of the time the proc Relic is active is about the same percentage (26,1 %).

@dipstick: One question about the best Relics for Shadow Tanks. You wrote that there must be atleast 7200 DPS going on the tank, so that the Proc Relics for Abs./Def. are more viable then the 634 healing Relic. If i just count that backwards, that means that f.e. the Underworld proc +550 Absorb Relic migates just 1,46% of the incoming dmg (634 / (7200 times 6 seconds)) when it is active. I assumed they proc the same time (both are on a 20 s CD). That can't be correct (The migation value of 550 Absorption Rating must be sth around 6% or so for shadows). Did i overlook sth. ?

You can buy Rakata-level items (140 Rating) from the Makeb Vendor with Planetary Commendations on the Fleet and that is rly the cheapest way to get lvl 50 items (u could do lvl 50 hm aswell for black hole gear)

The same happened to me. BT run with 2 inquisitors, agent and bounty hunter and the Sith Warrior bracers dropped. I submited a ticket.