They were actually a damn good raid team, who performed a lot better once the distraction of a DPS (and HPS) meter was removed. ALL DPS will succumb to trying to beat the other DPS - it's a game, and people are competitive - every raid team or PuG I was ever in, where DPS meters were in use had the same problem with people focusing on that rather than the fight. And I was raiding for over 5 years - clearing every raid at-level up to Firelands when I quit. The reason I quit was mostly the terrible community that's now in WoW, partially created by addons like recount, gearscore and the other e-peen tools. (cross realm random dungeon finder was probably the biggest problem though)

It's hardly a "bother" and for specs that rely on taking damage to perform, or whose dps is related to the HP of the enemy or themselves, it's a lot better than whacking on a passive dummy whose HP never changes. The point is that people are moaning that they can't check their DPS when it's pretty easy for anyone with a brain. It's also not forcing other people to hand over their combat stats in realtime in PuGs. DPS meters are uneccesary, and only used for people trying to stroke their own egos or troll other players. If you want to play a game that's more like WoW, go play WoW. Nobody will miss you.

Added to this - nobody knows how unbalanced the classes and specs are yet. So it might turn out that even some braindead idiot spamming 2 buttons on a BH can out DPS someone on an IA playing perfectly. Will the DPS meter help them? Of course not.

That's not exactly the truth. Yes, most people use addons in WoW (where do you get your statistics for "vast majority" by the way? Please link.) However, a damage meter is not necessarily one of them, and even fewer "love" a damage meter besides the idiots who spam its output all the time. I come from a big raiding guild in WoW, one of the top guilds on the server and we had lots of problems with progress because everyone was running recount, over-aggroing, ignoring adds, or comparing numbers when tactics were being discussed etc. Recount was banned, and the combat log was recorded by the RL and uploaded after each raid and progress accelerated hugely as people were focused on actually killing bosses instead of worrying about beating "fred" at dps. Nobody "needs" a DPS meter. Hell, if you want to work out your dps now, get a healer friend, go find a high level mob record its HP, then see how long it takes you to kill it. Divide the HP by the time taken to kill it (in seconds), and that's your DPS. It's not rocket science.

Bring the player, not the dps meter. Back in WoW I pugged a lot in dungeons and raids - my mage and DK could put out ridiculous DPS (could spike up to 50k dps on the mage - avg ~30k no joke). However, I would always rather be grouped with someone doing 10k who was polite to some ******e spamming recount and acting like a tool. In fact I did initiate vote-kicks multiple times against some idiot raging about someone elses DPS. If a dungeon only requires an avg of 30k between the group, and the healer/tank are fine, who the hell cares what the dps are doing? (I also played healer and tank up to the Firelands raids before I stopped playing) It's mostly the little kids who somehow think someone's getting something slightly easier than themselves so they start to pout, sulk and whine in groups. It's just pressing buttons - it's not life and death. I would say grow up, but a lot of them are just children and lack the maturity to understand how stupid they act. Combat logs = great tool to analyse problems in a raid. DPS meter = pressure on DPS to pop CDs and pull aggro, and healers to spamheal and waste mana - I've seen it time and time again. Groups that ignore DPS meters always have a lot more fun than the idiots who think MMOs are "serious business".

(I didn't read any further) You really didn't understand my post. There's no point in continuing this conversation. Goodbye.

You obviously completely missed the point of my post. Go practice and learn before speaking to me again.

I think the issue is not whether meters should exist - they do have their place within a raid team where everyone wants to use every tool to progress. The issue is with people being able to see everyone elses stats in dungeons etc as well, and then bragging about how many dps their level 11 BH can do in a flashpoint, and causing arguments (which is exactly what happens in WoW). I was an officer in a large raiding guild in WoW - we cleared all the raid content, and only one person at most would ever run a combat log and dps/hps meter. The results would be uploaded and analysed after each raid. This made raiding far more successful and fun for everyone, as the DPS didn't feel pressured to "top the chart", potentially pulling aggro and wiping everyone. Healers could just do their job with less pressure and people had a good time. People don't NEED meters, they're a tool that should be used to collect data for use outside of the realtime game.

This is so funny! All the kids here who think that their DPS, or HPS are the only things that matter for killing a boss. Here's a clue kids, there are often other roles in an encounter - people may be kiting, avoiding damage, switching to help a healer briefly, calling out tactics etc. If you're just some mindless drone who pops all his cooldowns at the start of an encounter to get the biggest damage spike, potentially pulling aggro, or you're targetting the wrong mob, you're an idiot. You're not helping anyone. TL;DR DPS meters don't identify idiots.

The guy who started this has been trolling since yesterday. In fact last night he claimed he was leaving to go back to wherever he came from, yet here he is, still whining. TL;DR - just report sanzuu so he'll finally go away.

You know that the people who rush to level cap don't bother with story lines, or interracting with other players, or having fun pvp'ing, learning skills or exploring? Basically they miss out on most of the game to scramble to 50 just to brag to friends. I feel pity for them really - they've paid money to basically ignore most of the content and make the game an ordeal. What does that have to do with you though? Are you compelled to copy them and also play like some mindless robot with only the number 50 as an incentive? Play it how you want to play and don't worry about what other people are doing.

Agree with OP - the "e-peen" addons just encourage abuse and arguments in groups. I think combat logs should be private unless the player is in a raid. I'm assuming most people who are raiding will be reasonably geared and experienced so it won't be a problem. I too have seen the problems "recount" has caused with *****s linking their "awesome dps" stats in level 10 dungeons - noone cares!

I can't be sure, but I'm guessing you don't work in the software industry, or at least have never had to perform unit tests and stress tests on networked systems. Anyway, a quick Google for "rift crashes river of souls" should be evidence enough if you don't believe me about Rift crashing during the launch event. And that's only one part of it - instability with various video cards, random disconnects - you name it. I fully expect it though, as I am a programmer who has worked in large networked environments. I currently write games for iOS and Android for a living, along with programming embedded networked systems for some companies you WILL have heard of ;-) In fact, you may be running something right now that runs code I've worked on - hehe!

Ah, so when you claimed that Rift had no bugs at launch, you were kind of making it up - seeing as you didn't actually play it? I haven't noticed any memory leaks here - I've had a couple of slowdowns that I cured by restarting. To be honest, I've had unexplained slowdowns in WoW as well, but my machine is very fast. So since SWTOR is "packed" with bugs - please list... let's say 5?

Er I actually DID play Rift at launch. It certainly did have bugs - especially with tier first World event that they had to cancel after about 12 hours because the servers were crashing and people were getting disconnected all the time. Rift wasn't a bad game, just too much like WoW for its own good.

I have a very fast gaming rig, SATA3 SSD raid, GTX570, 12GB RAM, i7@3.6ghz and even I've had unexplained slowdown at times - normally when entering a bulding. I've found just closing the game down and restarting has fixed it, but really nothing should slow it down like that. I suspect they must be worknig on a patch. In general though, if your PC seems to slow down when you're amongst a lot of other players, it's likely to be the CPU (as it's dealing with more network traffic, and keeping track of the players/buffs around you). If it slows down when you're on your own and a lot of effects are on screen, then it's usually the GPU. Your GPU should play this fine really, so either your CPU/RAM need upgrading (probably the MB also in that case) or you may be experiencing the same glitch I have been, but more often than me.

I wasn't there for the launch of WoW, but heard there were plenty of problems, not least with class balance. It also had no pvp or raids at all, and was primitive in gameplay compared to modern MMOs. I do remember Rift launching, and the constant serevr crashes, especially with the river of souls event when the rift spwns essentially took over the entire map making it unplayable - and world bosses causing people to disconnect! This has been very smooth in contrast. I'm not even going to bother responding any more to the kids that are crying about this launch - it's a waste of time.

You do have that option. Pick a new server from the list before you enter the game, and create a character. Get your guild to do the same - make a new guild. Done. Otherwise wait till the new players have decided to move their toons to lightly populated servers, so the queues die down. You're obviously new to MMOs if you haven't experienced these queues before. They happen in ALL popular MMOs after release, or after a new expansion.

I think it would work as long as any player accepting the bounty were flagged for free-for-all (i.e. anyone could fight them, even the same faction) which only stopped once the bounty was claimed, or they dropped the bounty quest. That would probably prevent most griefing, as any bounty hunter would be wandering around with a target on their back.

After raiding and running arena and rbgs on my old mage in WoW, I know for a fact the class I'm playing now is a lot more complex (I also levelled up every other class available, and raided on another 3.) I left WoW 4 months ago as there's no challenge there and Blizzard have run out of ideas (Kung Fu pandas - haha.) As pve content being beaten the first week of release - we'll see. However I know that groups of randoms with no knowledge of the fights have been taking Deathwing down since day 1 of the Raid finder. That's supposed to be the ultimate big-bad of the expansion - beaten in hours by just about anyone who can be bothered. Sure you can go back in with th edifficulty turned up to 11 - but for what? It's been beaten - it's done. You want an extra +5 points on your gear that'll be replaced an hour into the panda expansion? Anyway, good luck. I had great fun in WoW in vanilla and BC. I suspect though that he only reason most have stayed since then has been lack of competition. I hope the imbeciles do keep playing WoW though. We don't want them here.

I find it disgusting to have this game compared to WoW. That game has the most horrible community outside of the MW idiots on Xbox live. It's old, and rotten like some cretinous zombie shuffling along trying to remove the brains of anyone coming too close. In contrast, this community is young and (so far) I haven't encountered the repulsive attitudes I used to see in WoW every day. I don't WANT those WoW players here. I hope to got they stay in their festering pit :-) And to the fan boys on either side (though why WoW fanboys would be here baffles me - assume just idiotic trolls trying to get attention) I really don't care if WoW "dies", or gains 60 million players. It makes no difference to me at all as I won't play it. I'll play this thanks - I no longer have any interest in the old game.

I wouldn't mind mods to change the layout, but I NEVER want to see "dps meters" and other loggers in this game. The reason: it gives ******es something to whine about in groups and creates friction and arguments. Who cares who's doing the highest dps, or the most heals as long as you're progressing? Yeah, some do, and to them I say find likeminded people (who also don't trust anyone) to play with. I SO don't want this game to turn into the cesspool of 12 year old whining, greedy, selfish idiots that WoW became.

Pros play Assassin ;-)

Agreed, I'm stuck in combat for a loooong time even if I run to the other side of the map in Huttball. I think once you're over 40 yards away or something then it should be possible to restealth. The worst of it is, there's no GCD on stealth, so if I'm tapping it to restealth, it's too easy to stealth, then unstealth instantly - then the CD kicks in...

Huttball is bad - pity it's the only one that allows same-faction contests. It's way too biased in favour of ranged players. It's such a small area that there's no real pvp either - just groups of 4-5 players zerging around picking off single players. There's no way to compete based on skill, it's just a mess. I like the other two though - great designs, and usually pretty quick games. Great fun! Can't believe people are claiming to be "bored" before the game's officially even released. Is this some new type of hipster - trying to look cool by saying they've been there and done that before the other kids get in? There are other things to do besides endlessly queue up for WZs if you're bored of them.