Damage meters give people the ability to do something that people don't like. It allows people to create a first impression of someone based on their performance as opposed to their personality. If you don't think first impressions don't matter, then why do you think people rarely show their true selves when they meet someone new? They like to create a new reality for themselves because people see themselves the way they think others see them. (It's called the looking glass self theory created by Charles Horton Cooley in 1902 and it's still used in sociology today) When people use damage meters it instantly gives information about a player. If you are someone that can put out great numbers and people can see it, then chances are people are going to look at that player and want to play with him or her again in the future and will want to add them to their friend list and/or group. Unless of course that person is a total jerk off and does nothing but gloat. However until they start gloating, people will have good first impressions. On the flip side, if you are performing bad and put out poor numbers, then people will form a bad first impression of that player. They would be less likely to want to add them to friend list because they see that person is a bad player. That bad player would have to put on the charm if they want to have someone befriend them because without that charm, people won't want to have anything to do with them when their first impression is that is a bad player. Here's an example of meters don't allow and what people don't like. Someone could say to a group, "I'm an excellent player, bring me to your flash point or operation." (example of creating a reality of perception to other people) That group could take that player and they may complete that flash point. Since they completed it, the reality of that person is an excellent player would continue to exist and that person could keep it up. However, if that group had meters, they could really see if that player was good, bad, or excellent player. They would have direct information and they may see that player was just average even though that player said he was excellent. It would give the ability to see if that reality that was created is actually true reality or if it was a false reality. So basically what it comes down to is like I said, damage meters give people the unique ability to form a first impression based on someone's performance. Without them, people have a much harder time judging if someone is good or bad. Yes, staying out fire is good, but if you are doing say 300 dps vs someone doing 1500 dps, I'm sorry to say it, but you are still a bad player compared to that 1500 dps guy that can also stay out of fire. For example if you went into another flashpoint with that 300 dps guy and instead of having a 1500 dps guy in the next group and had another 300 dps guy, things wouldn't run as smoothly and the people that grouped with the first 300 dps guy would assume it's the new guy that is bringing down the group. Damage meters would have told the group that the first group had a poor player that did 300 dps and they wouldn't have wanted to play with that guy again because it would mean the next run wouldn't have been as smooth.

That's pretty good if a business can count on you to pay for their product 4 months out of the year. How is that a bad thing? You have any idea how many companies out there would kill for that kind of customer base that always comes back to try their product again?

Running with 98% accuracy, or 108% skill accuracy I had a sorc deflect an attack of mine today... I found that odd.

The biggest advantage of force and tech attacks isn't so much the lower accuracy required to hit a target, it's more that their attacks cannot be shielded. When you have a move that does say 2,000 dmg and you fight a tank with 55% dmg reduction that move is down to 900 dmg. That's fine, it's a tank - they should have higher damage reduction. However when you add in them shielding that attack and reducing it by another 40%, that 2,000 dmg move ends up doing 540 damage. In other words, all of the mm sniper attacks have a good chance to have their dmg reduced by almost 75%. That's why a sniper needs at least one move on a short cd that can bypass shields and evades because when a mm sniper fights a tank, it's over before it even begins.

As many people know, a marksman is pretty much worthless vs tank npcs and players because all our attacks are effected by evades and shields. So how about if they had a talent in the MM tree that turned snipe into a tech attack. That way when fighting tank enemies we would have an ability that we can somewhat rely on and know it won't be evaded or shielded. It wouldn't make a huge difference, but it would help. I made a post about it on the class forums and you can see my reasoning with it if you are interested. It didn't get many hits so I figured I'd talk about it in the sniper forums. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=349168

If you look at the damage numbers of skills, you see that they do about the same damage (except for demo round vs ambush). For example, grav round does a bit less than snipe, but full auto does quite a bit more than series of shots. Add in the 35% armor bypass and they end up doing more. Even still, that's not my point - its just showing you how snipers don't do more damage. You say tank complain about pvp and lack of abilities they can shield or evade in pvp. To that I say, what are they complaining about? Aside from sorc/sage spells and dots, they seem to be just fine. Are they mad about grav round? Just interrupt it and they can't use it for 4 seconds, aside from demo round they can evade and shield a majority of the commando moves. Besides, if they made grav round white damage then they'd be in the same boat as snipers - just another target tanks can look at and laugh them off. Heck, they can dodge, shield, and parry a target and not even have to be facing that target, how much easier do they want it? Also, I'm not just talking about pvp. There are plenty of tank npcs out there that greatly diminish the effectiveness of a mm sniper or ss gunslinger. Every one of our attacks are effected by shields. Having snipe turned to tech dmg, a move that is far from being the strongest attack and is the least energy efficient would help with it. With the limitations on energy it wouldn't even come close to being OP.

Grav round isn't the problem and I have not said it is. If you look at the numbers you see pretty much all their non tech attacks are just as strong, if not stronger than the sniper attacks. The problem is that snipers and gunslingers if marksman specced have no moves to help with fighting a tank type npc or player. All your moves are subject to shielded attacks which drastically lower the damage of your moves. I'm not saying every attack needs to be tech, just one that we can have on a relatively short cd (while snipe has no cd, the energy restrictions of the class give it one) that we can rely on.

Accuracy has ZERO effect on attacks being shielded. The shield percent is calculated after a hit lands. Accuracy only effect a hit or a miss, not if your attack gets shielded or not. Before you base your post around a concept, at least make sure your concept is accurate.

Damage meters are like anything else out there where you can be judged or viewed by other people. If you are good at your role and can put out good to great numbers, then you don't mind damage meters or enjoy them. If you are bad and know you put out bad to mediocre numbers, then you don't like them because others can see you don't perform well. If you are good you like them so people can see you are good and they will add you to their friend friend list and/or group. If you are bad you don't like them because people will judge your gameplay and not your personality and they are less likely to like you. Damage meters are like first impressions. It's the first thing people can see you with. If you are good and the meters show it, then people get a good first impression of you. If you are bad and the meters show it, they get a bad first impression of you. That is literally what meters boil down to. Like or hate that argument, the argument itself hold a lot of merit.

If you had read my post you would have seen that I said I don't have helm or gloves on so I can match the damage bonus to compare the numbers. Also, on your point about snipe spam, snipe costs 20 energy. It cannot be reduced or have energy regain after a crit unlike grav round or tracer missle. Under 60 energy your energy regen takes a dive. Casting 3 snipes in a row brings you down to 40 energy so it's not like we would be spamming it. It would however give us an attack that we can rely on, not spam, but rely on when fighting tank npcs or players. Your argument is invalid because of the energy system and how it acts with snipers.

I can't vote in the poll. I did what the guy said and hit the back button under the poll but still cannot vote. That poll isn't really accurate, just look at how many people say they can't vote in it.

Snipers and gunslingers need a tech attack that can be regularly used to help offset the massive damage loss when an enemy shields their attack which is often. People say, "Snipers hit harder than any other ranged, so they don't need it." But is that really the case? I wrote down the damage range of my abilities of my commando and sniper to demonstrate how that statement isn't true. Note that I am not calling for a nerf for commandos, I'm simply showing how it doesn't make sense that snipers have all their attacks susceptible to shielded attacks. I don't have a sorc or sage leveled to 50 so I can't compare their numbers. But as you know, they have a total advantage vs commandos and snipers because none of their attacks can be shielded. With these numbers keep in mind that my sniper has a lvl 50 purple crafted gun and 313 bonus damage. My commando has a lvl 50 purple crafted gun with 312 bonus damage. To show I'm not just making up numbers, I'll post a screen shot. Commando http://i42.tinypic.com/pcc52.jpg Sniper http://i39.tinypic.com/fa0i68.jpg (note: helm and gloves are not equipped to help match the bonus damage stat because my gear is based more towards power) Snipe - 1407-1514 vs Grav Round - 1423-1473 Ambush - 2365-2545 vs Demo Round (25% dmg bonus added to number) 1818-1927 Followthrough 1520-1644 vs Charged Bolt 1400-1744 or HIB (30% dmg bonus added to number) 1639-2042 Series of shots - 2982-3208 vs Full Auto - 2778-3462, when procced for 25% more dmg 3472-4327 So as you can see, the only attack that has an advantage is ambush vs demo round, both on a 15 second cd however DR cannot be blocked or evaded unlike ambush. Every other attack they are either on par or stronger for the commando. However commando has the added benefit of having at least some moves that can bypass the shielded and evasion mechanic. Not to mention they have the ammo round that bypasses armor by 35% so their white moves do even more damage than the sniper that is listed. Anyway, my point is NOT to nerf commando, my point is that snipers need a move they can rely on when fighting tank type enemies. The only attack they have is explosive probe which is on a 30 sec cd and a dot that deals 1300 dmg over 15 seconds. As you can see, it's not like the sniper does a ton more damage than the commando in the first place, in reality it's actually less aside from ambush and snipe which do a bit more dmg, but after the armor pen round they deal less dmg. Maybe make a talent in the mm tree that turns snipe into a tech based move. That way they can have at least one move they can rely on when fighting tank npcs or players. I really doubt people would consider that OP since it's one of our weakest moves in the first place. I dunno, but do something because I feel the sniper is getting shafted when it comes to tank npcs or players.

Your point starts to fall apart once you've completed a raid multiple times. The excitement of raiding the same place multiple times, especially when you know you can clear the place no problem starts to get stale fast. Having damage meters to compete with other dps keeps things fresh and gives each dpser something to shoot for each week. Does it just come down to a "pissing match" as you put it? Perhaps, but that pissing match gives each person something to shoot for other than, "We've killed these bosses 5 times already, lets just get it over with so we can get our loot and log out." How is something that keeps raiding fresh a bad thing? If you don't want to partake in that, then don't do it. But what's the point in denying others that option?

I used to always play a tank. It's what I did. In wow after tanking for a few years on different tanks I was growing bored. I liked being the tank and pretty much the leader of any group, but I was starting to get bored and wasn't sure why. After completing raids I realized it was the same thing... Tank things, use my cds, etc, but after completing the same raids over and over again, I was missing something. After talking a buddy of mine I realized what it was. Lack of competition to keep things fresh. He was telling me the thrill of always being able to compete with others when it came to dps. It sounded fun so I wanted to try it out and rolled an elemental shaman after completing bastion of twilight during cata. I leveled up my new shaman and was lucky enough to be in the same raid because one of the dps wanted to switch to his tank so we essentially switched roles. I have to admit, at first it was a bit daunting being outdone by the others in the group. But after getting some gear, I started to compete with them and soon after when I had equivalent gear, I was beating them. I was hooked, competing for top dps was fun and breathed life into the game. I continued to play till dragon soul came out and completed it while continuing to be top dps and to be honest, it never grew old. Competing with others in the raid group for top dps is just fun to me. Especially when you've completed the same raid over and over again, it gives you something to shoot for every week. My roommate wanted to make the switch to this game so I went with him. On this game I made a sniper because I enjoy dps. While fun... I have to admit, it's not nearly as fun as it was in wow. It's not because wow was better, but it's because I don't have that sense of competition that I once had. I'm finding myself completing the operations on hard mode and I'm having that same feeling I had on my tank. It's just becoming stale after beating the same raids over and over again with nothing being new, it's the same thing every week. I know people don't like damage meters for their own reasons, but I have to say that for me, it makes being a dps feel stale when you don't have them. Yes, I kill my mob first on the council fight so I know on that fight I'm top dps, but it's that one fight. That is literally the only fight where I get that thrill of competition and that feeling of excitement when I raid. All the other fights are like, eh - whatever, let's just kill it so we can move on and log out. So basically, the one reason I play dps is something I can't experience in this game at the time. In the future I'll be able to see it with that parse they are releasing but it'll be a pain having to upload my log somewhere along with the other dps to compare our data. I don't even know if I'll still be dpsing by then anyway. But whatever, we'll see.

Come to think of it, it's odd that ambush isn't in that tree either. I mean ambush is like designed for the marksman tree. They give you a few talents to buff it, why not just go all the way and give it more crit damage?

I used to always play a tank. It's what I did. In wow after tanking for a few years on different tanks I was growing bored. I liked being the tank and pretty much the leader of any group, but I was starting to get bored and wasn't sure why. After completing raids I realized it was the same thing... Tank things, use my cds, etc, but after completing the same raids over and over again, I was missing something. After talking a buddy of mine I realized what it was. Lack of competition to keep things fresh. He was telling me the thrill of always being able to compete with others when it came to dps. It sounded fun so I wanted to try it out and rolled an elemental shaman after completing bastion of twilight during cata. I leveled up my new shaman and was lucky enough to be in the same raid because one of the dps wanted to switch to his tank so we essentially switched roles. I have to admit, at first it was a bit daunting being outdone by the others in the group. But after getting some gear, I started to compete with them and soon after when I had equivalent gear, I was beating them. I was hooked, competing for top dps was fun and breathed life into the game. I continued to play till dragon soul came out and completed it while continuing to be top dps and to be honest, it never grew old. Competing with others in the raid group for top dps is just fun to me. Especially when you've completed the same raid over and over again, it gives you something to shoot for every week. My roommate wanted to make the switch to this game so I went with him. On this game I made a sniper because I enjoy dps. While fun... I have to admit, it's not nearly as fun as it was in wow. It's not because wow was better, but it's because I don't have that sense of competition that I once had. I'm finding myself completing the operations on hard mode and I'm having that same feeling I had on my tank. It's just becoming stale after beating the same raids over and over again with nothing being new, it's the same thing every week. I know people don't like damage meters for their own reasons, but I have to say that for me, it makes being a dps feel stale when you don't have them. Yes, I kill my mob first on the council fight so I know on that fight I'm top dps, but it's that one fight. That is literally the only fight where I get that thrill of competition and that feeling of excitement when I raid. All the other fights are like, eh - whatever, let's just kill it so we can move on and log out. So basically, the one reason I play dps is something I can't experience in this game at the time. In the future I'll be able to see it with that parse they are releasing but it'll be a pain having to upload my log somewhere along with the other dps to compare our data. I don't even know if I'll still be dpsing by then anyway. But whatever, we'll see.

I don't buy the higher ranks of stuns or snares. Why am I going to pay 50 or 100k to fully rank up an ability just to do an extra 50 damage on a move I can do every 15 seconds or 1 minute? Talk about a waste.

The idea that it's only "semantics" so it's no big deal is laughable at best. You ever hear the phrase, "Perception is reality"? Why do you think when people go on a date for the first time with someone they rarely show their true selves. They do it because they want the other person to perceive them a certain way. Perception can have a huge impact on how you see something. If you go to a party and you get super smashed and act like a total idiot, some people there may perceive you as a drunk and they won't want to have anything to do with you. Being perceived as a drunk has negative effects and the way people perceive you can have a major impact on you. When people see something labeled normal mode they don't initially think that it means it will be super easy and a walk in the park. However when completing the normal mode operation and have zero wipes and could have completed it with their eyes closed they get the perception that raiding in this game is a joke and the devs don't know what they are doing. However if they see the mode is easy or beginner difficulty they won't bat an eyelash when they run it and find out it's easy. Believe it or not, an mmorpg that has the perception that the raiding is super easy and is a joke can and does have a negative impact on the game. Sure, they completed the easy mode of the raid, but did they know it would be laughably easy when they started it when the mode was called normal? No, they didn't. That's why they complain raiding in this game is so easy, because of that simple "semantic" of calling it normal mode gives the perception that there would be some degree of challenge when in fact it's a complete joke in difficulty. The op is correct, they really need to change the name of the difficulties. In a genre where word of mouth can greatly impact the success or failure of a game, you don't want people to have a negative perception of raiding with people saying it's too easy and devs don't know how to design raids.

Isn't it obvious what they are doing? They are going to keep the graphics as they are for a long while. Then, when they advertise their first expansion they will use better graphics as a selling point to get more to buy the game. However instead of actually making the graphics better, they will really just be flipping a switch and allowing the graphics that are currently available in the game's database be available for people to use. I know it sounds cynical, but I really do think that's what they are planning on doing. The graphics were in the game during beta, but now suddenly they cannot be displayed? That's fishy to me and it's bad marketing to use that as a selling point for their expansion. Keep this thread bookmarked and remember my response so that a year from now or whenever they have their expansion pack you can look back and say, "That Ulmius guy was right. And that's messed up."

Unfortunately for you since it's so easy to craft the first set of orange gear with an augment slot, people aren't going to be actively looking for your services. If this game had it so the higher level custom gear was better than the low level custom gear, then maybe. However since the only thing they'll get out of the more expensive items you would make (if you are making high level orange gear) is a different look and not better stats, then you won't be highly sought after. With the ease of making level 100 orange gear it means that 1, many people will be making that gear so the market will be flooded, and 2 someone could easily make an alt, get it to lvl 100 crafting, buy schematics, and make their own with only a few hours time invested. The current system of crafting and lack of super rare high stat items like other games will prevent you from becoming the ultra rare, highly sought out crafter. Your dreams of becoming that type of crafter will never be realized in this game. The only way that will happen is if you get some mega rare mod from a raid and are one of the few people that can craft it. Making crit custom gear won't. Sorry to burst your bubble.

True, a combat log is needed for a damage meter to exist, but the fact remains that without damage meters dps have no accountability which is why they rarely take blame for a wipe. It'll be nice when we can point and call out terrible dps and have proof that they are to blame for the wipe. But until then, tanks and healers will take a majority, if not all of the blame for a wipe.

Because there are no damage meters. With there being no damage meters, dps have no accountability. If someone is doing extremely poor dps, you have no way of knowing unless the boss enrages and wipes the group. With damage meters you can see someone doing 200 dps vs the other guy doing 1,000 dps and you can say, "You are bad, play better, you are wiping us" or something like that. With out the meters they can suck all day and just blame someone else for the wipe because there is no way to point out the bad dpser. Who knows, maybe you have a dps in your group that is doing stellar dps and the other guy is abysmal dps. You don't know which one is really good and which is really bad. All you know is that the dps isn't enough so you would feel the need to replace both of them. That is why we need damage meters. If for nothing else, accountability for dps.

That orange weapon can currently be crit with an augment slot making it the best weapon in the game come 1.2.

Thus rendering all planet commendation gear, flash point gear, pvp gear, heroic quest gear, and operation gear obsolete because they lack augment slots. Ya, that's a really great system. They might as well just delete that gear and sell the mods from vendors. Yep, great system.

You confuse me. How is saying raid or pvp gear will be inferior to low level crit crafted because of lack of augment slot equate to complaining about solo oriented progression? If anything what the OP is saying would make it better for ALL players, soloers or raid/pvp players because they'll have the freedom to wear whatever piece of gear they want because all gear will have the same potential. When I read it this is what I get out of it. "People want freedom to look however they want. The system currently does not allow that because certain crit crafted gear will be superior to every piece of gear without an augment slot. Flashpoint gear, pvp gear, operation gear, planet token gear, all of it will be inferior so they won't have that freedom they talk about wanting. Let people put augments on any piece of gear so they actually have that total freedom they want." I agree with him. The only thing 1.2 will do is just make any crit crafted gear best in slot. I like how my rakata gear looks, but now I won't be able to wear it anymore because I like having the best stats I can get and without an augment slot, it will be weaker. So what do you guys want? Total freedom to look how you want which is the intended design? Or do you want crafted gear to be best in slot and all non augment slot armor worthless so now everyone will just be wearing some form of crafted gear? Make up your minds.