Isn't everyone gonna be wearing crit crafted orange gear anyway? Also, Star Wars outfits aren't exactly known for being visually appealing...

Overdramatic much?

Simply put, they are not "better". They have 2 separate roles in a warzone. One is a pure damage dealer and one is a hybrid. Hybrids by definition can perform more than 1 role simultaneously. Therefore it would be safe to assume that a Juggernaut would be both dealing damage AND protecting his allies. Whereas a Marauder would simply be dishing out however much punishment he can before he is taken out. Rage Juggs still pop higher Smash numbers than Rage Mara's in equal gear. They have 30% more power due to a talent in the Vengeance tree. In PvP, burst is king, not sustained. I would argue that in the current PvP game state, a Rage Jugg IS better than a Rage Mara, but 1.2 is looking to change that. A Marauder can do nothing except deal damage, of course they will excel at it! While we're on the topic, why don't we compare Operatives or Assassins to Marauders? Oh they're hybrids you say? HMM... BW has confirmed they want Marauder to be the top melee damage dealer, which I for one think is perfectly deserving.

I never said they couldn't deal damage. You're just speaking to your own ignorance of the classes. "OutDPS" isn't really possible, as a Marauder has higher sustained than a Jugg always. Juggernauts also have an extra 30% stronger Smash than a Marauder, making their AoE far more powerful, given the free crits provided by Rage tree. This will of course result in higher damage done over a WZ. A skilled Juggernaut will defeat an unskilled Marauder, but given equal situations (same gear/skill), the fight will come out on top for the Marauder. Yes, they are TANKS, since they have the capacity to protect team members from harm via Taunt and Guard, plus their massive mitigation compared to Marauder via Soresu form. Don't get me wrong, I never said Juggernauts can't dish it out, but they are far more effective to the team when they play tank. A true team player would know when to swap forms to best assist the goals of his team, not relying on selfish "DPS" or "KBs" to validate himself as a player.

I really hope no new players stumble across this thread looking for actual class info. Juggernauts are TANKS - they wear heavy armor and can swap forms readily to be sponges or damage dealers. Even if you're Vengeance or Rage, you should be swapping forms from Shien/Shii-cho to Soresu and back as required. If you think that's a lot of extra buttons, tell that to the Marauders . From my experience playing both Marauder and Jugg in PvP environments: Juggernauts are more of the objective/assistance based class, sort of like a battle commander. Guarding allies and nodes, running huttball. There's a reason they can push, charge, intercede and sunder armor. They can also dish out some decent damage, but nowhere near the potential of the Marauder, as Juggs are hybrids. Marauder is much more of a soldier, up close and personal, blowing all their CDs, dealing as much damage as possible before dropping like a rock. Rinse and repeat. All the people claiming Marauders have so much utility really are missing the point. They have INCIDENTAL utility. Everything they use buffs themselves and a couple other people nearby. They can be used to run objectives, but are not ideal, nor good in a pinch. Undying Rage is 5 seconds long. Also, I wouldn't be super proud of a Voidstar game as Rage spec. Yay AoEing all the doors totally means we can stand up to a Marauder in total damage. Situational stuff at best.

We get most of our really cool moves really late, but your level 20 talent tree moves help a lot. You mentioned leveling as annihilation, so once you get deadly saber at 20 you should feel a lot less squishy. More damaging dots and more self heals. Also once you get Pommel Strike and Savage Kick, standards and silvers go down pretty easily. In PvP, the deciding move that made marauder "pretty fun" to "awesome!" is when you get execute.....at 46, lol. SO STICK IT OUT, it's worth it.

You said: I heard: "I just dinged 50 and I want to instantly be on par with people who worked for HOURS and possibly DAYS/WEEKS to have an edge over others." Entitled much dude? I guess I forgot how a fresh 50 can't help cap nodes or cc ball handlers. Gotta have the same gear. This kinda crap is why our forums are cluttered with garbage posts.

This is usually me when i run Anni: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bIrRrodfhzZhMzZh.1 If you don't like Seeping Wound, you can toss points into Subjugation, or take them from Short Fuse. Malice is pretty key for when you're not berserking, as it affects bleed ticks. I don't have much/if any issues with rage when I run this spec, so I don't take Empowerment or Cloak of Carnage. It keeps me alive, and I can still dish it out or run the Huttball.

If someone is leaving you at a node to defend, that's poor teamwork right there. We definitely shine when we are in the thick of battle, and make poor defenders to boot. Once you blow intimidating roar, you're stuck spamming sweeping slash to keep people off nodes. Many many other classes have moves that can peel people off much easier. There's a lot of bad marauders out there, but there's a lot of bad everything. There's just less of us kicking around. Plus it makes you look good when you wreck people in 2v1s

If I meet another Marauder in a WZ or Ops, I immediately assume they're horrible. Maybe that makes me a bad person, but at least I don't get mad when I am usually right =/. Of course, if someone would ask, I am always glad to talk theory or just help with rotations and specs. I have seen a lot of new Marauders lately, so maybe we'll start see some more quality ones in WZs, or just more free kills

I think the timer begins as you are traveling, not just when you impact the target. If they are pretty far away, it would affect the immobilize.

Don't forget, Rakata is 3rd tier PvE gear. Comparable to BM, not Champion. So yes you will hit a lot harder, but you lose the "resilence" effect of Expertise. I'd just try with a couple pieces of each set on til you find a balance.

Not sure what you mean when you say you're "doing better" with Obliterate, they both are entirely separate style moves. Annihilate refreshes Rupture, and gets a reduced cooldown as you use it. It hits a lot harder than Obliterate, and 1 rage is refunded through the Enraged Slash talent. Obliterate is just a small hop with a movement speed increase that enables crit Smash. Hybrid builds don't work well with Marauders, we generally need our top tier talents to be effective.

What about "Your Massacre strikes apply Vulnerable to your target, increasing all damage taken by 1%, this ability stacks up to 5 times". This would allow for stronger scaling attacks (a-la juyo form), along with an incentive to bring a carnage marauder(damage increase), instead of an annihilation(offheals).

What he said. Vicious Slash is your dump move, but if you over extend you will find yourself starved. Honestly, just keep at it and you'll get more comfortable managing your rage. Nothing sucks more when you get the drop on someone and don't have the rage to lay out your whole rotation on them, lol.

My bad, I meant better things to attack with? Lol. I did notice that Ravage has a little bit of "lag time" as in, if someone is running away, there's a good chance I am going to hit someone with at least 1 swing. If Annihilation is up though, for sure I'm gonna be hammering that button over letting Ravage finish.

Hold on here, now we're going past discussion about whether a talent is worth it, and now telling "L2P". I don't have any issues dealing damage on my Marauder, slowing people, being kited, the whole nine yards. This discussion is supposed to be about whether we should choose to have a talented slow, over using an already existing ability. Not about who is lazier. Like I was saying, I'd prefer to deal damage while applying a slow to a target. I don't need a 50%, 30% is just fine. Your argument about bleeds being purged is totally valid. I would agree with you there. However, I simply disagree that having a free slow is something to just write off, and that people are "lazy or bad" to use it.

You're right. Ravage is slow and clunky, and after those first 2 hits, the 3rd is negligible. Honestly, in a 1v1 situation I find no time for Ravage, and there are far better ways to spend your rage. Ravage is awesome when someone else is actively cc'ing a target (choke, knockdown, stun) but otherwise it's pretty lackluster. Even as Carnage which is supposed to root them (so I hear, I never take that talent when I go Carnage), someone just needs to interrupt you to shut it down. Even in PvE, depending on a mob's HP and where my CDs are at, I will interrupt Ravage after 2 ticks.

Oh go away. You don't need much uptime on the target to lay out some hefty damage. This just keeps you on the target for longer. Please enlighten me where the 2 points are better spent? 1 more rage from charge? more fury from killing enemies? The only remotely useful talent is getting 2/2 Subjugation which is subjective at best. I don't see how spending less time dealing damage to a target with a built-in slow implies laziness. Quality post.

You save wasting rage into Crippling Slash while applying one of your key bleeds. I don't even know why this is a question.

Yeah my Sith looks like the Joker from The Dark Knight with Sith corruption on. Fair warning.

I think it just sucks that Massacre ends up being your filler move, when Force Scream crits for 4k, and Annihilation's bleeds do more damage than Ataru strikes. and "set it and forget it" which caters the movement heavy role of a melee dps. If Massacre applied some sort of damage over time component, it would really help to keep it in line with other abilities. Maybe it could stack with applications of Massacre?

What the hell is this? I understand it is supposed to be pure support, but unless you're rolling in premades that want to carry you, this is a detriment to a group not a bonus.

ITT: MY OPINION IS BETTER THAN YOUR OPINION Seriously though, all 3 specs are super viable for PVP, they simply cater to different play styles. It would be asinine to assume that one is more "faceroll" than another, they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

Marauders use Retaliation? I always found it to be a waste of rage/GCD. Am I missing something?