I'm sorry... are the maths too difficult? :| I'm not whining, I'm simply countering a fundamentally flawed argument. There are two classes capable of dispelling it, no question, no need for debate. Is that really ridiculous territory? 1+1=2? They can cleanse, if they happen to be one of those two classes, but they pay a price and thus will seldom do it. For a scoundrel / commando it'll be a DPS race and they won't have the time to spend the GCD/energy on a cleanse, unless they've somehow managed to LOS the 100% mobile Pyro with the slow debuff attached.

Haha. the DOTs being 'almost useless'... The people you get defending this class make me laugh. By certain classes cleansing you mean two, although you probably don't as like many you'd no doubt tell me Sage can dispel the burns too. Scoundrel and Commando can Cleanse a burn DOT but sadly, cleanse is not off GCD and thus 1 GCD to cleanse just once is a hefty price to pay, especially considering how often the pyro can apply the DOT. My point is - the DOTs are some of the most powerful in the game and are far - leaps, bound and mountains - away from being useless.

Why do people who don't play sniper talk about playing sniper. Above rotation every 12 seconds isn't going to give you much overall damage, and if you do much between that then you're having energy problems. The assumption of doing an execute is unfair, and completely dependent on the situation (the rotation would have to be V a Sorc and have critis). The second followthrough you will not be able to do, you will have to wait 2-2.5 seconds for the CD to finish after Series of Shots / Ambush.

Yes. A well reasoned, rational and intelligent argument. There is no class imbalance, every class is perfect. What's more, there has never been any class balance issues - ever, in any game. Class balance, as a concept, does not exist. A team of DPS sages will have perfectly equal opportunity to win against a team of 8 Powertechs. There are many butterflies and everything is very gay and pleasant. ...

I agree. Shame SWTOR PVP is built predominately around objective based play which focuses on secular fights, often in small limited spaces. (Unless you somehow stalemate horribly on the first door of Voidstar, and even then, pillar LOSing is simple unless the Pyrotech fights in front of the door?!)

Not that I agree with your assessment of the Gunslinger's damage output V the Pyrotechs, but what you've just said is exactly my point. Gunslingers are now in a strong position as competitive rated DPSers. This has happened over a series of boosts to the class. Would you turn to me and say the same thing if it were 4 sages? Commando? Scoundrel DPSers? A good Gunslinger can remain a competitive rated DPS, an average pyrotech will remain competitive throughout. I don't think Gunslingers are weak, but I still think Pyros have the edge over them. That said, I'm more concerned about the three other aforementioned classes and where they sit currently in the DPS class balance. EDIT: To further elaborate on my Gunslinger point. With the GS the damage output is high but they have a counter - they are the easiest class to LOS due to their mobility issues. If a Pyrotech was limited further to melee range, that would present a better counter. Currently that does not exist. And then there's the issues presented when a class has 100% mobility with a slow attached to one of their main abilities. Second EDIT: I'm not suggesting that the three highlighted classes are the only ones that warrant attention either. In the scenario that Pyrotech remain the same, most DPS classes will need attention (with the possible exception of GS)

I understand what you're saying, and I wasn't saying I necessarily agree with the entirety of the OP. However, to provide one example of how X player can beat a Pyro on X class doesn't make the pyro not overpowered. It's all about class balance as a relative measurement of the class' overall potential damage, defense mitigation and utility. If someone says to you "I want to play a class that would be welcomed in rated and compete at the highest level", what do you answer?. My guild runs with a Commando who is brilliant and does incredibly well, so he is welcomed. This is however just one case. On a whole, a Commando would not be welcomed and in the above hypothetical scenario the best advise would be to go a class such as Pyro. This warrants close attention, and certainly goes against the argument for the game's current balance. Statistics that have been released by guilds have shown how much higher the number of PT / Sentinels are over other classes. I don't want to play rated games against 4 Pyro teams, and yet this is what I'm being forced to do on a daily basis - as is pretty much everyone else. I want the players in my guild to feel like when we beat a team it is because of skill, and when we lose it's because we were outplayed. With a team of pyros, this is seldom the case. In a one on one player skill will take give you the edge, certainly. But in a group dynamic, let's say there is a team of Scoundrel (DPS), Commando, Sage and Gunslinger against 4 Pyrotechs. The Pyrotechs, regardless of skill difference in the groups, will win out as in a group scenario the HIGHEST POTENTIAL damage matters.

OK I'm with you. I've never really considered it to be so, either. Always called it a hybrid instead. The melee argument is just one that a lot of the spec's defenders bring up to explain away the higher burst potential.

Seriously struggling to follow the flow of your argument, maybe it's just me. Railshot can only be done every 15 seconds? Not have its cooldown reset on a 6 second internal CD? What do you mean by 'an escape'? What escape does say, a gunslinger or commando have? And on a 15 second cooldown? I'm not trying to berate you, I'm just confused.

I'm not sure how I got pulled into a melee V range discussion here, but in defense of the OP, he said they had too much burst at range for a MELEE CLASS. He is right. People attempt to justify class' burst by claiming it is melee. It isn't.

What is this rubbish? Who are you and what happened to your education? There are only approximately three Assault Vanguards on my server who play competitive PVP, all of them seem literate... so I don't think any of them are you.

DId not understand what you meant by this, at all. Sorry.

I haven't spoken much about the class for a time, as the community was very blatantly awoken to the class as a prevalent issue in balance (even a number of Powertechs themselves). You, however, still reside in every thread about Powertechs relentlessly dismissing the opinions of many by throwing around the question of 'skill'. Try posting something semi constructive, or simply wait for the inevitable nerf and watch me shower in tears.

Logical arguments like the OP will be received with disdain by people like this. The bottom line is, only a few Powertechs will have the integrity to admit the class' strengths (damage) and shortcomings (linear rotation and lacking in excitement). Most people are just having too good of a time being misconstrued as a good player, supported by the powerful spec. For what it's worth though, the post was a good read.

You literally have 0 idea about the Operative healing class, nor apparently healing in PVP generally. Yeah bud, scoundrel healing is just popping in and out of combat, throwing one heal then restealthing continuously... You aren't healing anyone in stealth. HOTs aren't enough to sustain anyone's health. They have one of if not THE lowest sustained single target healing, as the heals of the Commando and particularly the Sage have a much higher base healing rate. They can burst heal, but it costs them greatly and can certainly not be done often. That said, they are a strong healing class, just don't oversell them with fantasy tales.

Proof that you have no idea what you're talking about. Stun lock? Just stun lock? Just hit that move called "stun lock" eh? Against a class who have two actual stuns, rather than most with 1 stun (non AOE) and one CC (broken on damage). How about kite? Kite a class that has a slow attached to their core ability? That has 100% mobility and can pull you back? What are you on. "Bad resource management / defensive cooldowns" oh dear.

I actually came on this thread to amuse myself, as I simply KNEW I'd find you posting on the first page trying to gloss over the issue at hand in favour of defending an OP spec with "It's just L2P LOLZ"

Pretty much same here. But let the thread die its needed death, or link it to those threads who complained that premades were ruining PVP. This is why you have to premade, to avoid this guy.

Then it is horribly unbalanced on team play, too. Ranked is primarily about group composition currently. Skill can take you so far, composition takes you the step further.

How has this possibly turned from a thread about the dangers of overpowered Pyrotech, to a discussion about what pyros would want added. This thread has been derailed many times, but this is something else. A lack of range should be your compromise for incredible damage burst. Every class needs a counter, currently, as neither a melee nor a range class, powertech don't really have any.

Christ one of you. At least if you're going to run to the defence of your own class, stop doing it with such insecurity. Decorate it up or something. He has a very valid point about the use of stealth classes being imperative to the success of Ranked PVP.. Alderann is this = Whoever takes left/right first. The mid is rarely taken, as teams will have stealthers in wait to finish the last interrupt. Generally, assassin/shadow tanks simply weren't nerfed enough to discourage anyone to stop playing them. They are still the ultimate objective player, offering the most CCs, pulls, guards and the ability for a tank to stealth (lol?).

That's exactly what you need, people aren't interested in logical and rationally formed discussions, they are interested in shock titles and opportunities to revel within hysteria. That said, I appreciate your post and understand what you're trying to say. But you are wrong in your assumption that another healer, like an operative healer, wouldn't need a guard for 100% of the match. Without a guard any healer, except commando, will go down in seconds. Even commandos won't stand much of a chance. Sorc healers have one instant cast heal, a 3k HP shield. They need more abilities that they can access whilst on the move, as restoration is simply far too underpowered. They are without doubt the class most susceptible to a Watchman Sentinel. That said, their direct healing output (without attacker) is the highest out of the healing classes. That certainly doesn't need to be changed, they simply need some form of defence against a continuous interrupt barrage.

The bad thing is too many objective based maps that aren't so much about combat, but rather about having one remaining guy stealthed to interrupt a cap. Would love to see more king of the hill / dominance type of maps, where it's about how you PVP and not how you stealth.

Excuse me? Not a single logical argument had been presented. My OP sought out to dismiss the obvious reactions to this type of thread, particularly the "we're 'squishy'" rubbish. So because I outlined that at the beginning, I hasn't willing to entertain the idea that powertechs are more squishy than any other DPS (the opposite is my opinion). To be absolutely 100% blunt with you, it is not my job but Bioware's to be in a position to say what needs to be done. No I don't want their PVE capability to be destroyed, but I want their PVP to be balanced. Neither you or I is experienced enough as a game developer (I'm assuming) to realistically assess and pinpoint exactly what can be done to achieve that. My intent is to the label the severity of the issue from the eyes of an avid PVPer, as has become the intent of many posters on these boards. And before you question what that means, I've PVPed on MMOs since Ultima Online in 1998 and on pretty much every MMO since. I don't like to be one of those guys who proclaim their own 'greatness' on a forum, but I'm far from being a 'bad' player. The only thing I could suggest, which I have suggested before, is reshift the position of some of the armour penetration. Over 90% on railshot is far too high, realistically it must be reduced to 40-50% and railshot would still be a high hitting move, just lack the absolute "death blow" characteristic it does now.

You didn't post a reply. You posted a personal attack with words changed from my post to bring to question the validity of my complaints. Admittedly my own took the form of an attack, against a guy who had continuously berated my posts. It was against him, not for you to take on your shoulders. The hypocrisy here is... too much.