Marb
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Posts posted by Marb
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So has anyone seen our class rep? our questions are next on the schedule for Bioware to answer.
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That list is terrible at attempting to show that Jugg tanks are overpowered. I can come up with a much better one for why Assassins are OP even though they aren't. Jugg tanks aren't overpowered in the least and people who think so are clueless. Not a single one of them have ever come up with a decent argument as to why they believe what they do and they never will. People are just gullible to buy into the propaganda others spew on the forums on a regular basis.
By all means, enlighten me. Please explain to me how assassin tanks are overpowered in PvE.
What do assassins or vanguards have in their tanking suite that Juggernauts don't have?
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Ammo regen boost is indirectly on storm if you spec into static surge. It means you are forced to use an aoe attack, but being ammo free enables you to regen some ammo after a storm if needed.
A separate ammo regen buff would overlap with static surge, and I feel that static surge in its current implementation already covers this.
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Maybe its because.. Jugg tanks *are* overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise has a very one dimensional view on tank balance.
- Force Shroud
- Stable damage profile
- Vanguard levels of damage reduction
- The two best tank cool-downs in the game on comparatively short cool-downs for their potency
It has nothing to do with shadows, but it certainly doesn't help their case at all crying out for nerfs, because that still wouldn't fix their own issues. I think you are referring to Leafy, he is being a bit dramatic.
- Force Shroud
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I am a little concerned that the questions are bloated. There is too much talk of huttball when trying to draw comparisons between tank classes, when its not hutball at all that makes those other tanks stand out in pvp. The question should be stripped down, and be more specific.
And please don't bring up an execute talent, if you want to talk about comparative gaps in vanguard skillset, it would be a gap closer, or some form of speed boost now that operatives have their roll.
Shoulder Cannon and adrenaline rush are both worthy of being mentioned in some way. Their implementation is clumsy and awkward, though at least we don't have lolphase walk.
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I double dare Bioware to bring back nightmare ec as 55, that would be as popular as a cancer for the jaded raiders.
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Reading the devs responses to the sniper and mara questions was deflating. I was really disheartened at how, even though they recognize issues, that changes are not in the pipeline in the near future.
I am still grateful at the initiative of starting some kind of direct dialog with the dev(s), but I hope they can at least direct some of that cartel revenue towards a bigger combat team. In hindsight, I shouldn't be as sad as I am now, considering operatives were not viable as dps for operations for nearly an entire *year*.
Even coming up with new ideas for juggs feels like a waste of time, when they are making out that even fixing and balancing changes are not something they are willing to do any time soon.
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You use riposte off cooldown because:
- Its off the GCD
- It only costs 1 focus
- It can't miss
- It has a bonus 15% chance to crit
I'm not sure why you would ever choose to not use riposte, pairing it with the focus generated from taking damage, it is focus neutral. Its free damage.
I agree that Kitru oversimplifies the significance of slash spamming (that doesn't happen), but I think he was trying to make a point of comparison, rather then stating that we literally only ever use slash because we are swimming in focus all the time. Pre 2.0, full defense played properly (which was rare because of the way sunder use to work) could almost never use strike. Now focus comes in waves, only to be consumed by all of our abilities coming off cooldown in sequence. So slash is used but I tend to use it more conservatively to ensure I always have focus for riposte, which also comes more frequently with its free proc from guardian slash. In short, riposte is lights-years ahead of slash, and is incomparable to strike.
But the fact remains that it is pointless to suggest that we can alter our ability priority based on the situation. Whatever order we use our abilities on the opener determines the order we will use them for the rest of that tanking interval. Our rotation is entirely static because of our 12 second cycle. I don't think choosing to delay sweep for courage stacks counts for much. At the moment the difference between a good Guardian and a bad Guardian is having enough free focus to fit in more slashes, which is inconsequential.
- Its off the GCD
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I would be down with asking a question about knockbacks:
General) Knockbacks and snares are the bane of any tank, but we Juggernauts feel particularly vulnerable to them because of the short effective range of our threat building abilities. The frequency of knockback attacks seems to be quite high on trash encounters in flashpoints and operations. Its not fun when your healer gets alpha nuked because of an unexpected knockback+snare combo immediately after leaping in. The turret emplacements in Cademimu also make for some hilarious encounters due to their fondness for knocking back any poor tank that foolishly puts a foot inside of the turret's melee range.
Would you guys consider giving Immortal Juggernauts some form of temporary knockback resistance? Alternatively, has the content team considered designing more tank friendly trash?
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Leto I don't understand your comparisons because riposte doesn't compete for a gcd. I know you are comparing focus spent to threat, but its not a relevant metric to use because the only time you are in a position where you would reorder your abilities based on focus efficiency is if you royally screwed the pooch somehow, or if you are not actively tanking the boss.
There is no reason to delay riposte, if you are playing a guard right, you will use riposte every single time its up without having any compromising effect on your threat or focus. This actually hasn't changed from pre 2.0. The ability order is biased towards threat slightly to maximize threat on the opener (sweep>guardian slash+riposte>blade storm) after this has been synced the only time you will have to rethink your ability use would be when you are not actively tanking the boss, as during that time focus management does become a priority.
And you do want to use masterstrike as close as possible on cd, but you should ensure that you are putting riposte on cooldown immediately before using it, or you may waste a riposte proc entirely during the channel.
Once you have synced your cooldowns on the opener, there is simply nothing in the world you have to worry about, everything takes care of itself. You hit the abilities as they light up, and if you can delay sweep for 3 courage stacks you should, but not if its going to push back the use of blade storm or risk the accuracy debuff expiring. Use riposte on cd, use masterstrike as close to on cd as you can (only immediately following a riposte during the deadzone of everything being on cd).
I main as a jugg tank and I think you are trying to find complexity that isn't there.
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Surge only competes with accuracy, so once you are as close to 100% melee accuracy as you can get, you will be using surge enhancements for the rest.
For veng, 100-150 crit rating seems popular. Some run with 0 crit and also get good results.
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I like the idea of an offensive cooldown, but I would be wary of adding any more buttons. Ability bloat is already a bit too much. Some players like lots of different buttons, but the designer in me can't help but see the redundancies. I think the idea behind enrage is that our damage is so enmeshed with our resource that it was envisioned as a dps cooldown in a way, but it doesn't really feel like it.
Seeing unload on my powertech class trainer just makes me facepalm, just as an example of thoughtless ability distribution.
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This is the point I was trying to make earlier, and the questions you've formed are along the lines of what I was thinking.
The only thing I could add to the Vengeance question is that not only is the spec reliant on the Rampage proc, it also doesn't have a spammable ability that procs it like Mercs and PTs do with Barrage and PPA while maintaining a lower proc rate than either of those abilities as well.
I understand where you were coming from.
And in UncleOst's defense, a brief reference to one or two proposed changes wouldn't be out of the question, as long as they could be brief and made to flow as part of the overall question, without launching into links to paragraphs and dot points of "what you should do to fix it".
There is a similar thing happening in the guard forum where there are no actual questions being put forth for group review. Also I don't want to give the impression that I am trying to muscle in on the actual class reps job, I am just getting concerned that we are not putting forth questions. The sniper's have already submitted their 3.
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Exactly the same question asked on the front page here. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=666929
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Fair enough. Like I said, I've tried to assist as much as I could, and I see that even from my opening statement, the flow of the thread went fairly true to course.
My third topic would be also for the Vengeance tree's "Seething Hatred". It would include a request for this ability to be re-evaluated and to perhaps include a dps related change, or a synergy with an existing ability.
On a per skill basis, I would also like to see dead weight talents like this be given some attention. All three of our trees are littered with them.
EDIT: I agree that a suggestion about tanks and chilling scream is trivial. I'm having trouble thinking of an issue for tanks that is pressing enough to ask about, but as a tank I honestly can't think of one.
It may cross over into the enraged defense question, but I would like to see focus get some more defensive utility, and I wouldn't be in opposition to making the aoe pressure rage can apply more difficult to execute. Rage doesn't have an issue with applying too much aoe damage, it has an issue with how easy it is to play.
But... perhaps this isn't even an issue at all, and Rage is actually quite well balanced in the current implementation. They are simple to play, and can apply spectacular aoe pressure and burst, but have no staying power and poor defensive tools, requiring team support to be effective.
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The questions have to be general. I think you are misunderstanding. We are not supposed to be suggesting solutions to our issues. You want to specify how enraged defense should function, instead of explaining our concerns with its current implementation as it is in the game. I doubt armchair game design is what the goal of the class rep program is.
We can ask 1 PvE question, 1 PvP question and a general question. If you can think of a better general question, go for it.
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Like the juggernaut thread, we are all getting carried away with thinking up solutions to our problems, when really we need to be coming up with questions.
The consensus from the jugg forum is that we want to have a question about:
Enraged Defense (pvp).
Vengeance RNG and rampage proc (pve).
Now I'm not aware of any correspondence with the jugg rep and guard rep, but because we both get to ask our own set of 3 questions, it would be a good idea to ensure that the final three for each AC don't overlap with each-other. Now it looks like the sniper guys have already submitted their 3 questions, so I suppose we should get a wriggle on and come up with 1 PvE, 1 PvP and 1 general question.
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Not true. Having tanked both the hybrid and defence pre-2.0, the performance of the full defence spec was much higher than the hybrid. I started out as hybrid, and then I tried what Moonstriker (tankingtor.com) was doing in full defence (http://www.tankingtor.com/2012/02/swtor-juggernautguardian-tanking-guide.html). In terms of play, Defence's performance was much higher.
Guardian threat actually performed much better in the full defence guardian. In terms of mitigation, the full effect of the hybrid spec meant needing to use force leap of cooldown. In fights where the operations bosses needed to be positioned, which pretty much was most fights, the unremitting buff pretty much was hardly up.
Hybrid Guardians might have had better DPS, but for TPS and snap threat, the full defence guardians (who used a highest threat priority as opposed to highest damage priority) was ahead. Prior to the changes to the defence tree, the hybrid guardian might have been better, but the changes to the defence tree did put full defence ahead.
Hybrid was better at taking damage due to the higher passive DR and the reduced cooldown on blade storm, it had nothing to do with unremitting. Total threat was slightly higher with a hybrid if it was played correctly, but many would argue that it wasn't the prime reason to spec for hybrid. I would agree with you that the actual difference in raw TPS was no where near as large as some suggest when comparing both specs being played optimally. Hybrid had lower threat modifiers but had higher raw damage, and with proper play it would yield a higher overall net threat result.
Speccing hybrid never really magically solved guard threat problems as some people suggested, I found its main appeal for me was just being better at taking damage. Taunt fluffing was always there as a crutch anyway, and I would agree with the opinion that the issue of guardian threat pre 2.0 was (and still is) massively over emphasized.
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It's been quite some time, so maybe I'm misremembering, but did not Immortal used to have a talent to reduce rage cost and GCD of the AoE snare? I seem to recall it being just spammed non-stop in Huttball matches back in the day.
Correct, it was a lower mid tier immortal talent that made it rage free and have a 0.5 sec GCD, and was a common component of hybrid pvp tank builds. After 2.0 the rage cost reduction is present with Thrown Gauntlet in the tank tree, and the GCD reduction has been attached to force charge, obliterate and intercede for rage juggernauts via the Oppressor skill.
Its prior implementation was problematic for the reason you described, but I think having a single rage free, GCD free chilling scream cast after our charge would be a modest addition if it was placed high enough up in the tank tree. That would be the ideal solution.
Edited the questions to better fit the format that Bioware wants.
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Ok so now that we have all pretty much discussed solutions to these issues I think we can all agree what our questions should be about. Now number 3 is the only tank question I could think off, because we are in a very good place at present. Now because each AC will get to rotate, we will effectively be given the opportunity to ask 6 questions, so It would be a good Idea to coordinate with the Guard rep to ensure we don't double up on questions.
- PvE) Vengeance lives and dies by its rampage proc. The dps difference between a good proc streak and a bad one seems to vary significantly, with vengeance dps only topping out with some very good luck. We recognize that the proc makes our spec more dynamic and fun to play, but we would all prefer a little more consistency in our parses. Would you guys consider making some changes in order to make vengeance less reliant on pure luck?
- PvP) Enraged Defense is an awkward cooldown when comparing its rage cost to its benefits. In pvp, juggs feel that it's not as effective as it should be when used as a defensive tool considering the total amount of rage that is consumed for its full effect. In pve, we feel the threat drop component is not worth the rage cost to use it exclusively for that purpose. What is the intent behind the rage cost of Enraged Defense, and are there any plans to revisit its design?
- General) Juggernaut tanks are the only tank class that has to spend resources and a global cooldown to apply an aoe snare in the form of a separate ability; chilling scream. Many jugg tanks feel that applying an aoe snare is too costly when taking into account our melee range restrictions. We can spec to reduce its rage cost, but that still leaves the issue of its GCD, which makes its use problematic in PvE when tanking large groups. Is this design intentional? Would you guys consider re-thinking this in order to make chilling scream a more attractive ability for Immortal Juggernauts?
- PvE) Vengeance lives and dies by its rampage proc. The dps difference between a good proc streak and a bad one seems to vary significantly, with vengeance dps only topping out with some very good luck. We recognize that the proc makes our spec more dynamic and fun to play, but we would all prefer a little more consistency in our parses. Would you guys consider making some changes in order to make vengeance less reliant on pure luck?
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There have been a lot of mixed messages from Bioware on this topic. I think its clear since F2P there has been a trend with the few comments from devs that we have had on the topic: Makeb is a model of how the story will evolve in the future. Class exclusive chapters are expensive.
I don't think leaked content that has been dug up from the client files is any proof that they are actually planning on class stories. The entire road map of this game changed when they went to F2P and moved to the "smaller patches more frequently format". There was a lot of stuff in their pipeline from development, as with all mmos. The plans changed when the game bombed with 1.3.
If Makeb is how the stories will progress, I am ok with that. However, considering they will still have to record VO from the class actors anyway, I don't see how including more class exclusive content in the world arc would be prohibitive from a cost point of view. Also, I hope to god that the level designers understand that fighting through waves of superfluous mobs to simply get to a location is not fun. The level design of Makeb feels cramped and the mob density is out of proportion with the small explore-able spaces.
Lets not even mention the performance issues that many people have on Makeb, even with decent rigs.
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I'll leave the question format and phrasing up to Feralpug, these are just my general ideas:
- 1) The PvE question should absolutely be about the hybrid issue we have, and the lack of good top tier skills compared to the mid tier of each tree. For elder game dps, hybrid is currently the only competitive spec, and it relies on the mercenary pvp 4p set bonus.
- 2) This could be a tank specific question, because it does effect pvp as well. The distinct lack of an anti Force/Tech cooldown is frustrating with the addition of saber reflect for juggernauts, making PT's the only tank class with no anti F/T cooldown. Dps powertechs also feel they lack defensive capabilities to stay alive to help their team in pvp.
- 3) This one is a wildcard, we could use this question to be very specific about an issue we feel is important, and not be general about it. We could ask about a gap closer, as with operatives being given the roll, we are now the only melee dps spec without a gap closer of some kind. Many feel hydraulic overrides is more defensive in nature to avoid knockbacks and break roots and snares, and it feels like a waste to use it for a minor speed boost to close to melee range. Grapple also does not serve this purpose, as it does not function in most operation encounters (the tanks would love that).
- 1) The PvE question should absolutely be about the hybrid issue we have, and the lack of good top tier skills compared to the mid tier of each tree. For elder game dps, hybrid is currently the only competitive spec, and it relies on the mercenary pvp 4p set bonus.
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So a zero cooldown, weapon damage Smash with no 5-target cap?
I don't mean remove the 5 target cap, it did sound that way. Just altering the effect shape to that of flame sweep. Edited.
The reasoning is that we are restricted to 4m more then any tank, yet have an expensive frontal cleave (which is awkward to use on melee mobs with larger hitboxes), with no way of using a snare beyond wasting a GCD. It just feels odd.
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The issue is that they trade places with shield, and that is a ridiculous illusion of choice and just confuses new tanks. Either remove them, or make tanking enhancements have different rules, so that if you guys really want us to have accuracy/alacrity it doesn't come at the cost of tanking stats.
The expectation that tanks choose between tanking stats and dps stats on their gear just makes no sense when threat in this game is purposefully designed to be simple. The comments made by Bioware about accuracy being useful for threat generation demonstrates an incomplete and contradictory understanding of their own game design.
Lets not even begin to talk about the "actual" benefits of those stats to tanks in the first place. If Bioware think these stats are good for us because of the way some active mitigation procs and abilities interact with accuracy and alacrity, it still doesn't justify the proportion of mitigation you would loose to even see any benefit from these stats in the first place.
Imagine if accuracy was on healer gear?, that's how much sense it makes. What the hell is going on Bioware?
/signed.
Juggernaut suggestions for our Representative
in Guardian / Juggernaut
Posted · Edited by Marb