Marb
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Posts posted by Marb
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nah nah nah
Don't stray from your order. Keep enraged defense as the general question. Reply to my post above regarding offensive cooldowns/potential shield bypass for the pvp question.
We're good. We're good.
Considering the time difference where I am, I have to call it a night and get some sleep. For reference this is where those questions were up to if anyone wants to develop them further: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6709427&postcount=67
Also, the rough draft thread is full of proposed questions from the community and a lot of quality material for whole new questions as well.
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Its fine, but I'd rather see your PvP and General Question switched. Using the PvP question for what is effectively a PvE question is wrong and in your drafts the General Question is what the high level PvP community wants to ask, where as the offensive cooldown question would fall more easily under "more people just want to know about this, but isn't needed nor wanted by the PvP community". You have to remember, to us "Enrage" is practically an offensive cooldown on Short CD
That was my initial understanding as well, the only complication is that enraged defense's base design is the classes only threat drop ability, which made it difficult to frame a PvP question without paying any attention to its primary use in PvE. Removing the rage cost would solve the issue for PvE flat out without any other special considerations, its just that some PvP juggs thought that removing the rage cost was actually a PvE bias'd suggestion.
I feel that any alternative implementation that keeps the rage cost would have to result in the threat drop being removed completely and segregated into another ability, a change that would be complicated and a very roundabout way of improving pvp staying power.
This is what it would look like minus any mention of a threat drop to keep it PvP focused:
PvP) Enraged Defense is designed to work while under the effects of a hard CC (like a stun) and Vengeance can spec into Deafening Defense to give it 15% damage reduction while active. However, it is underwhelming as a defensive cooldown for Rage Juggernauts and unreasonably expensive (in rage cost) for all Juggernaut specs.
Would the team consider revisiting Enraged Defense's design, perhaps improving the defensive benefits for the Rage spec in addition to removing its current rage cost/rage consumption effect?
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As a PvP'er that does play at the highest level of competition-
Asking for an offensive CD for a jugg is NOT a good idea for a PvP question. In PvP they have some insane damage output, asking for more is not what is required for the class to be usable in high level play. I would gladly trade some of the damage to have an even slightly better Enraged Defense, and so I view that as being the important question for PvP.
Vengeance in arenas is good, but needs no Rage cost on ED. Rage in Arenas is ok- but needs a slight bit more defensives as 3 minute CD's / 1 minute 3 second Reflect are NOT good for arena. I'd like to see ED have buffed healing in Rage tree with no rage cost as a baseline effect as well.
Have a read of the general question, is this sufficient to address enraged defense concerns in PvP? if not, then maybe the PvP question needs to be about improving survivability?
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I only ask, because today is the day. And I was curious if/when he would post the final questions, as presented to the devs.
I'm not sure on the deadline, but I wouldn't worry too much.
I was hoping he could add to the PvP discussion a bit, as it has been a chat between essentially 3 people in here for the last 48 hours.
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When do you plan to pose these questions? Do we have until the end of the day?
Its on Marlfox to decide on the final three, we are just groupies.
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No offense, but read my post there again. How is an ability(feated in vengeance tree with seething hatred) designed to temporarily remove a player applied shield, not a pvp question?
None taken. I didn't mean to be dismissive, I am just not sure how to make that into an easily digestible question while keeping it short AND covering an offensive cooldown. I like to think having an offensive cooldown would help with bursting through sorc bubbles, so I see a bit of a potential overlap here. Would adding some sort of interesting secondary effect onto Enrage be an alternative implementation?
I am seeing a way something like what you are describing could be mentioned as an example in the pvp question, but devoting the entire question to it would be alienating those concerned with the lack of an offensive cooldown in return for a 50/50 gamble at a specific unique utility suggestion.
Could you put what you have in mind into a question as an example? By shield break I assume you mean sorc bubble break? or do you mean breaking force barrier? or ignoring a players shield chance?
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I'll look at it more in depth, but ditch the 4 piece vindicator and go with the 2/2. Why you may ask? Look at Ravage %/dmg vs Force Scream %/dmg. With the 8% increase in scream on the vindicator you were only able to match the dmg of ravage. I did the math calculation and just by swapping the 8% around you will automatically be higher. Then you add the fact that ravage has the possibility to proc 3x vs 1 on FS, the overall dmg will be much higher
Here is one of mine. Tried to parse as close to your time as I could.
2829dps
http://www.torparse.com/a/405061/1/0/Damage+Dealt
Have you tried parsing without using saber throw in your rotation?
Also notice that i have 30 hits of Ravage vs your 24, so looks like you are not using Ravage as much as you should.
I'm using Vicious Slash more than you. I'm guessing it's in place of your saber throw. That would explain why i have more of the Force Lash than you.
Do you have all your Strength/Will Power and +10 datacron? every little bit helps. Seeing that my overall crit % is higher which will help with the dps. 34.26 vs 29.84
Ok, that makes a lot of sense. I think the priority I'm using is a bit off, as I basically fit ravage in at a set spot as opposed to letting it fit in whenever its up and appropriate. My rage management seems to be off too, I am using sunder less then you, so that would explain the use of saber throw and less viscous slashes/force lash procs.
And yea, I have all the willpower and strength datacrons, I think the crit difference is just rng, some of my parses come out with 38%(?) crit rate sometimes, which is utterly random.
Thanks for taking the time to look at my parses.
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PvP) Enraged Defense is designed to work while under the effects of a hard CC (like a stun) and Vengeance can spec into Deafening Defense to give it 15% damage reduction while active. However, we feel it's underwhelming as a defensive cooldown for Rage Juggernauts and unreasonably expensive (in rage cost) for all Juggernaut specs.
Would the team consider revisiting Enraged Defense's design, perhaps improving the defensive benefits for the Rage spec in addition to removing its current rage cost/rage consumption effect for all specs?
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PvE) Vengeance can't reliably refresh Ravage, as both Impale and Shatter have notable cooldowns and rage costs accompanied with low proc chances (30%). Outside of Impale and Shatter, there is no way to trigger Rampage. PvE juggs feel that if we could rely more on this proc firing when we need it, our damage would be more consistent and reliable between encounters
The variability in our damage output from parse to parse is a point of concern with Vengeance Juggs. Would the team be willing to examine the way Vengeance is currently restricted by RnG chances on our main damaging ability, and perhaps explore ways of improving the consistency of our damage?
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General) Out of all the classes in the game, the Juggernaut holds the distinction of being the only advanced class that lacks an offensive cooldown in a literal sense. Enrage gives more rage, but doesn't feel very interesting and has no secondary dps benefit.
What are the reasons for this design choice? Would adding an interesting secondary effect onto Enrage (or perhaps a new offensive cooldown) be an addition the devs would consider for the future?
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Marb,
I think you might want to change to word few to only in the PvP question. Everyone's got one but us. I messed that up when thinking of the question.
Actually I ninja edited that, only because I thought operatives didn't have one as well. I'm not sure though.
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For the pvp question, Marb. Please reword the utility to include a suggestion for a temporary "shield break". What I mean by that is select "seething hatred" for example and specifically ask for a short window that enables vengeance jugs a few seconds to burst through shields.
I think if we do not get specific with this, and merely ask for some utility, they'll say..."Guys you have some already". Asking for an alacrity buff is too grand. Crit buffs are kool, but if a healer knows that a vengeance jug has a temporary ability to remove a shield...
This ability would not break the game. It would also couple with the pve attributes of seething hatred quite nicely.
Asking for a specific and concise utility will force them to consider it. It's 50-50. Either they love it or hate it.
As a pvp vengeance jug, if I could feat into an ability to break a shield, even if temporary, it would act as an incredible burst tool. All the while, there would not be any need for a revamp of the entire tree.
Please reword and include this new suggestion. When you do so, I'll personally stamp it with your other questions. and place it in a new thread. To hell with our rep.
I'm just concerned that being that specific, even though its with good reason, isn't going to get the kind of response that we expect. The PvP guys in this thread have expressed a strong desire to see the staying power of both dps specs improved in PvP (by zoning in on improving enraged defense as a defensive cooldown).
Marlfox is right in that the PvP question should reflect the concerns of the PvP base exclusively, I would just motion them to drop the enraged defense focus, and instead frame a brand new question about their specific PvP concerns.
Sooner rather then later would be good too.
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Good thing we can rip set bonuses out because these look ****.
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Not true, Focus really only becomes better with lots of adds, that Vigilance cannot handle as well since Vig is basically single target while Focus can down adds like crazy but is limited in actual boss fight. Vigilance also has way better focus management than Focus does. Everything that costs focus costs 1 less focus than normal, sweep is a focus generator, your big hitter is focus free on a reset proc that adds focus, and for movement intensive fights your dots keep ticking away even after you move away from your target. The dots can also proc Dispatch to use for free at any health level, which Focus never gets until <30% hp remaining, and proc instant crit on Bladestorm.
So when there's a single target that absolutely must be downed quickly, Vigilance is the spec to do it. When there's lots of adds or trash to kill, Focus is the spec to do it. Both will suffer nearly equally on fights where you have to move away from the target, though Vigilance may get a Dispatch proc from previously applied burns. Don't know where you get that movement hinders Vigilance, it doesn't since there is no setup involved. In fact, Op IX fight is one of those that I score top DPS in the raid because it's just a string of single targets, switching targets is never an issue.
To OP, honestly, I'd say learn both, buy the field respec, and use appropriately for what you will be fighting. Add heavy fights or trash pulls, use Focus, where there is basically one target, use Vigilance. On boss fights, you'll mostly be using Vigilance unless your raid group is seriously lacking in AOEs to deal with adds in a timely fashion.
The point is that focus is competitive with vigilance even on a single target.
Vigi requires you to use ravage and apply your bleeds up front. This is where it falls down with heavy movement or target switching. If vigi wasn't so reliable on RnG and wasn't punished so much for target switching and moving, focus wouldn't even be considered for operations. Focus requires no set up, has no bleeds, and can ignore ravage if movement or multiple targets are a priority.
Focus just provides reliable and consistent damage with full mobility, which means in an actual boss fight, focus can often outperform vigilance regardless of the number of targets involved.
But keeping that in mind, I agree that you should still learn and feel comfortable with both specs, so you can respec on the spot to best match the encounter type. Operator being a prime example.
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Both parses were done using a serendipitous assault relic, the only difference is I used a dread guard force energy proc in place of a boundless ages on the first parse. I will do some more parses without the dmg proc.
Here are 2 parses using serendipitous assault and boundless ages:
http://www.torparse.com/a/404945/time/1377850330/1377850635/0/Overview
http://www.torparse.com/a/404945/time/1377850781/1377851086/0/Overview
I should be doing more damage with the gear I'm in, but my apm seems normal and my ability distribution looks right:
3 69 armorings
2 69 enhancements (high power)
Rest is 72 (high power)
Crafted Implants
4 piece vindicator
0 crit, 99.91% accuracy
Underworld Relic of Serendipitous Assault
Dread Guard relic of Boundless Ages
All augmented strength, 1 accuracy aug.
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Marb baby. We got it all wrong here. There is nothing wrong with the rage cost of Enraged Defense, provided the ability grants redeemable value. We need to focus on the vengeance tree as an example and request specific changes granted for the rage and immortal trees. Simply requesting a free "lacklustre" ability isn't good, we should aim for specific benefits.
The pve/general/pvp questions are so hilariously and harmoniously linked, it's almost laughable.
Also. Quit being so damn polite you guys. We have specific questions here ! Quit beating around the bush typing novels, grow a pair of balls, and get to the point dammit!!!
Even if it was a saber ward with a 1 minute cooldown, I would still squint every time using it in PvE because of that rage cost. Also remember that if they removed the rage cost, they would have to revamp "From Passion" in the rage tree anyway. The only spec this would neglect is Immortal, and that is a good thing. This is the question subtly rephrased, placing a greater emphasis on how crap it is as a defensive cooldown for rage:
General) Enraged Defense is designed to work while under the effects of a hard CC (like a stun) and Vengeance can spec into Deafening Defense to give it 15% damage reduction while active. However, it is underwhelming as a defensive cooldown for Rage Juggernauts and unreasonably expensive (in rage cost) for dps Juggernauts to use as a threat drop.
Would the team consider revisiting Enraged Defense's design, perhaps improving the defensive benefits for the Rage spec, and removing its current rage cost/rage consumption effect?
PvPOut of all the classes in the game, the Juggernaut hold the distinction of being the only advanced class that lacks an offensive cooldown.
Question: Was the lack of an offensive cooldown an oversight? Would the developers consider granting one to the Juggernaut so as to match the other classes’ ability to bring a little extra on demand burst?
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This could really go anyway, PvP, PvE, or General. I don't think the devs are going to be able to say the Jugg DPS is just that good that every other class can have an offensive CD but us.
I really like this question, as long as the PvP people understand that adding a whole new ability like this would be more of an expansion sort of thing in its scope. It would really pay for the PvP juggs to decide what the most important priority is for them, if enraged defense and vengeance are being covered already (even if they have PvE implications, changes to either of those would have flow-on PvP benefits as well.)
There is the potential here to knock out a lot more of our issues if we use each category like this.
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PvP) Enraged Defense is designed to work while under the effects of a hard CC (like a stun) and Vengeance can spec into Deafening Defense to give it 15% damage reduction while active. However, it is underwhelming as a defensive cooldown for Rage Juggernauts and unreasonably expensive (in rage cost) for dps Juggernauts.
Would the team consider revisiting Enraged Defense's design, perhaps improving the defensive benefits for the Rage spec, and removing its current rage cost/rage consumption effect?
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PvE) Vengeance can't reliably refresh Ravage, as both Impale and Shatter have notable cooldowns and rage costs accompanied with low proc chances (30%). Outside of Impale and Shatter, there is no way to trigger Rampage. We feel that if we could rely more on this proc firing when we need it, our damage would be more consistent and reliable between encounters.
The variability in our damage output from parse to parse is a point of concern with Vengeance. Would the team be willing to examine the way Vengeance is currently restricted by RnG chances on refreshing ravage, and perhaps explore ways of improving the consistency of rampage procs?
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There are a couple things ,some people need to remember once and for all.
Rage Juggernaut is terrible when compared to Rage Marauder.It is Rage Marauders that contribute to the reputation this specs has infinitely more than Juggernauts.
Vengeance PvP is bad and not where it should be.Buffs are needed.Both dps and survivability wise.
Not all Juggernauts are tanks and the experience is completely different.Tanks are fine and should be left alone or nerfed.
This.
This issues with rage juggs are only issues when drawing comparisons with rage Marauder.
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Do you even pvp!? because i dont think you have ever seen rateds/ you prolly do a few regs here and there but nothing too serious, Enraged defense as a rage jugg is almost usless, jugg dps is one of the squishest in the game... and we arent comparing mara's with juggs, just trying to get juggs a little bit more survivability when it comes to DPS PVP specs not TANK and the point of buffing enraged defense is to give rage juggs some use in pvp lol...
Take a step back and read what you wrote
Rage needs better survivability is all I'm seeing from this. Is rage survivability the number 1 top priority issue with Juggs in PvP atm? Do dps pt's, sins, sorcs and operatives have that much better survability that we need to be brought up to their level?
Snipers and Marauders being overpowered shouldn't be the catalyst for changes like this.
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Enraged defense is possible one of the worst defensive cool downs in the game.....BOTH DPS jugg specs need to a little more survivability, they have no place in competitive pvp because of how squishie they are, also jugg dps Enraged defense needs a buff.... it really sucks for rage spec
Its not really a defensive cooldown, its a threat drop with a bad implementation (rage consumption) to discourage tanks in PvE from using it. It's only misunderstood as a defensive cooldown due to how Veng's cc damage reduction is linked to its use (a hallmark of middle tree melee dps specs).
Any buff to enraged defense would really be about improving the surviability of rage and immortal in PvP, both of which don't warrant that. Rage's PvP threat is largely countered by its simple minded nature, and beyond saber ward and saber reflect, will fold under heavy focus fire. That shouldn't be seen as an issue with the spec, the issue is with rage Marauders having too much survivability, not rage Juggs having too little. Immortal juggs are unrivaled PvP tanks at present and definitely don't need more survivability either.
I don't think you pvp Juggs are going to get the results you desire from putting all your eggs in the enraged defense basket.
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PvP
We the community believe that the most outstanding issue with the juggernaut dps tree's are their lack of adequate cooldowns with an emphasis on "Enraged Defense." In the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense" is arguably one of the best cooldowns for dps juggernauts. In the rage tree however it is almost useless when fighting 1v1 and incredibly useless when being focused by multiple enemies. A solution to the Rage Tree "Enraged Defense" would be to increase the amount of healing received by the skill or to make it similar to the Vengeance Tree "Enraged Defense." Also it will be extremely important to remove the resource cost of the skill and the resource cost while the skill is active in both trees. As it stands by using "Enraged Defense" for both trees you are inhibiting your ability to put out dps. We understand that in PvP scenarios rage juggernauts put out an incredible amount of pressure and damage, but the damage to survivability ratio is severely imbalanced. We also understand that juggernauts have the utility to taunt and mitigate damage to other players, but you can't taunt if you cannot survive.
Question: What solutions/thoughts does the combat development team have regarding the above issue?
I have read and understood the issues and concerns the community has with the PvP question. However when I have talked with multiple high-end pvp'ers on multiple servers the general consensus is that the question accurately covers the main issue with juggernaut dps. The PvE implications while being somewhat important, do not take precedence over the PvP issues of the class because this is the PvP question. The Immortal Tree is not mentioned because as it stand it is arguably the best tank in the game for PvP and PvE. No one is disputing that saber ward and reflect are good cooldowns, but as it stands the 3min cooldown for saber ward and 3 second reflect are not enough for the class.
This doesn't really work as a PvP question. The issue with the ability is that it shouldn't cost or consume rage.
Does the Jugg PvP community really feel that they need another defensive cooldown? The issue is that this question has the net result of being an indirect petition to buff rage survivability, a questionable move when rage Marauders are currently making a mockery of PvP balance. Improving the representation of Vengeance Juggs in PvP, in my mind, should be the biggest PvP priority. Tanks and smashers are already in a comparatively strong position, its only the middle tree that is under represented.
Enraged defense in its base form is arguably meant to be a threat drop. It's not really designed as a defensive cooldown in the traditional sense, it only becomes one with deafening defense (which provides vengeance with damage reduction while cc'd, like all the other middle trees of melee dps ac's).
PvEOutside of an armor debuff, which can be applied by multiple other classes/role assignments, Juggernaut DPS has very limited group utility. Off-tanking or emergency tanking is not encouraged by any mechanics at end-game, and is not practical without sacrificing competency in our primary role as damage dealers. Similarly, abilities such as Enraged Defense and Intercede, will providing increased survivability, detract from our primary function as damage dealers (Intercede for using a global to do something other than damage and ED for the Rage cost), causing our already unimpressive damage potential to dip even further; they are also completely unneeded in end-game PvE.
With the current state of affairs with regards to class balance, a group would be better served bringing a Juggernaut tank, a Sniper, or a Mercenary for their armor debuff, due to other benefits provided by those classes/roles in addition to the armor debuff. This leaves Juggernaut DPS players without something that they can offer a group as far as utility abilities are concerned. Further, Juggernaut DPS is woefully lacking with the exception of one specific spec in one specific fight in the current tier of content.
Question: Is it intended that Juggernauts' damage output and group utility while using either of the DPS trees be sub-par due to the fact that we have the option of fulfilling the tank role?
Back onto the topic of PvE, paowee's comments have really given light to our biggest issue, and that issue is the Vengeance spec. Its not about utility, its not about damage, it's about Vengeance being at odds with the advantages of being a melee dps spec, and its impractical usability in operations.
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Just a few points on the resolve system.
There are no diminishing returns on cc abilities in swtor. The only thing that restricts their use is the PvP specific resolve system.
Resolve makes you immune to all incoming crowd control once you have reached full resolve. Any incoming cc effect that brings you to full resolve will still cc you, however the timer for being immune to cc doesn't come into effect until the current cc on you expires. Moments where you are bombarded with enough cc to fully resolve you are situations where you are likely being focus fired (and you die even when resolve finally makes you cc immune). This often makes it feel like resolve doesn't work, when it is actually working as intended.
Also, snares and roots DON'T build resolve. Resolve only applies to crowd control that locks you out of your abilities (stuns and mezzes) or physics based effects like knockbacks and pulls. Resolve is only applicable to player crowd control. NPC's do not build resolve on your character, and similarly, you don't build resolve on them for using cc effects.
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Well now this thread has been bumped:
I am having a lot of trouble even cracking 2700dps as rage, and this is as I have been gearing up compared to my earlier higher parses in 69's.
http://www.torparse.com/a/403272/time/1377751462/1377751767/0/Damage+Dealt This is very typical of my dummy parses atm. I'm still rocking crafted implants and a few 69 armorings/enhancements, but everything is the good version (no high main stat mods, high endurance enhancements). 99.91 melee accuracy, dread guard damage proc, underworld power proc and force scream set bonus.
Which is counter to a previous parse I did little while ago, which put me a lot higher with a lower crit rate:
http://www.torparse.com/a/360458/time/1375098198/1375098500/0/Overview
This parse I had mostly 69's, arkanian power proc, dread guard click relic, less accuracy, ravage set bonus. Higher apm from the click relic.
Finding it hard to zone in on what I'm doing differently, the main differences are that I have started using a damage proc over the click relic and the 4 piece vindicator set bonus instead the 2/2.
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Yea, I still appreciate you posting stat spreads with shield left unbound. A lot of juggs get shield when they shouldn't be.
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If you have geared using KBN's values for a jugg tank, you should be fine for NiM tfb.
Also pick up a relic of shield amplification if you haven't already, it now procs with the fortunate redoubt.
Dipstik also did some TFB specific numbers using HM data:
Jugg:
Defense 1107
Shield 634
Absorb 795
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It would be the easiest solution but I think the high rage cost was simply to act as a deterrent for Immortal Spec. They really don't need another cool down.
That's why I think they left most of the benefit in the form of talents in the DPS trees. Reduced Cost for Rage and improved DR for Veng.
I agree, I think that was the idea behind the rage cost. The best solution would be to turn the ability into a flat rage free threat dump in its base form. Deafening Defense would stay as it is, and From Passion in the rage tree would provide a healing effect. No tank would use it then, as it would just be a threat dump without the skills from high up in the dps trees.
I would hope they come to the same conclusion, the rage cost is a wonky way of deterring tanks from using it, and it unfairly punishes dps juggernauts for using it as a threat dump or a defensive cooldown.
Rage VS Vengeance for PvE
in Guardian / Juggernaut
Posted · Edited by Marb
There is nothing the force crit can be put down do other then rng. We are both running 0 crit gear, all datacrons, and I would wager our specs are identical. Apart from those things, there is a massive discrepancy in force crit between what I average and what I see on top Rage parses, but again I'm willing to wager that I just have bad luck.
The biggest difference with his parse is that he uses sunder, viscous slash and ravage more then me. I usually delay sunder so it finishes the cooldown on smash, making sure cascading power is reserved for everything else. This means I am using viscous slash less, and subbing in a saber throw to bring obliterate off cooldown sometimes because of the rage shortage.
My ravage uses are also slightly lower because of how I use it in a fixed spot (delay its use so it coincides with force crush ticks every time). I need loosen up my rotation a bit, will try some more parses and post results,