I don't think you understand how DPS works... One move isn't going to inflate numbers that significantly on ANY boss fight (in fact, the only EC boss where force smash hits more than one target is on Kephess for a single phase where everyone in your group should be AoEing anyway). In any case, kf you think DPS on trash mobs is relevant, then you're delusional. No one has said this. People have simply said that Guardian/Juggernaut DPS is competitive and that any discrepancy you're noticing is likely due to your own gear, rotation or understanding of fights. The fact that you continue to argue this point while asserting that *your* rotations are superior, despite the fact that ample evidence to the contrary has been presented, is asinine and insulting. Go reroll if you really think that the class is weak, we don't need egotistical players like you to make the class look bad to potential prospective players.

Main Attacks Shatter: 2400-3300 (don't know why the range is so high, tbh) Sunder: 1800-2100 Ravage: Full ravage ranges from 10k (only crit on the second hit) to 16k (all crit) Impale: 3.7k-5.2k (again, no clue why it varies so much) Saber Throw: 2800-3600 Vicious Throw: 5700-6600 Force Scream: 3.4k-4.2k Dots: Shatter: ~450 on a tick Chilling Scream: 120 tick Eviscerate: 80 tick

It's not opinion, it's sheer fact. Skimping on any talents that add damage in the long term like that is purely detrimental to your overall dps.

Toth and Zorn are not overtuned, merely poorly designed in that if you have too much DPS you can end up bugging the mechanics for leap. The best thing to do is to have DPS actually stop if you're going too fast to let certain transition mechanics occur before the leaps. We run 2 melee 2 ranged and have found that the easiest thing to do is to let one melee and one ranged stay on one side the whole time and simply swap targets whenever the new drouk leaps over. We take no damage from fearful as a result.

Wrong, the bleeds are actually one of the highest components in our overall damage and add up to quite a bit of damage. The draining scream dot effectively adds 20% more damage to our scream over the duration and eviscerate is a 10-15% increase as well. Not picking them up is just plain stupid.

While I welcome the nice new relics (which are finally convincing me to get off my *** and grind them out as the last 2 pieces of my WH gear). I can't help but feel that too much damage was shifted to the relics while little to no consideration was made with regard to the impact that more readily available augment slots will have. They should have reduced the on-use component's effect and added marginal damage rather than making them straight up stat sticks. w/e It doesn't make a difference to me.

/thread

1.1k expertise is low... 1200-1300+ is the norm if you have decent gear.

Enraged Defense lets you tank a good deal of PT damage (namely their dots). Good use of enrage to sustain rage and force push is enough to shut down a lot of their initial damage. It's important to remember that PTs are VERY squishy and only have one real defensive CD, they're a lot easier to kill than most people make it out to be... As far as our DPS goes, we're one of the top DPS classes in the game (and if you don't think that's the case, then optimize your gear before you start running your mouth off about your personal situation). I'm not sure what you want out of a surge talent, but we pretty clearly do NOT need it. Here are my stats atm (fully buffed w/ a rakata stim): 78.09% Surge 611 Bonus Damage 29% crit 99.1% accuracy If our stats did not scale at the same rate as other DPS, I would agree that something is out of whack. But they don't. If you use the right mods and enhancements, you're going to be in a VERY good spot.

Vengeance is gear dependant and scales very fast with it. Rage does too, but it starts off on a better foothold.

Big crits/numbers aren't indicative of performance, especially in a voidstar where damage numbers have a horrible tendency to be skewed. Rage, at the moment, is an awful spec and only functions against horrible players that cannot react to it. The biggest thing that most juggernauts that tout rage as the end all do all spec is that the spec's rage costs are horribly inefficient and that outside the burst rotation every 12 seconds, your damage is woefully inadequete to the point where anyone with half a brain is going to simply murder you or keep you defensive the whole time. Vengeance is the most rage efficient juggernaut spec, has the best *effective* mobility due to unstoppable and is the best execute class in the game, period. Because the rotation isn't reliant upon a single ability coming off cooldown, vengeance can maintain it's pressure with relative efficacy without sacrificing damage in the long run. Rage *could* have had similar pressure, but the issue is that overpower for juggernauts simply isn't that good (whereas for marauders, berserk will actually cause Vicious Slash to GENERATE Rage for them). With the change to SSM in the patch, it's simply not going to be viable outside that little window. That being said, the base utility of a juggernaut (taunts/guarding) is something every juggernaut should master, regardless of spec. I've seen posts where people link themselves doing 500-600k damage yet only manage a pitiful 10k guard when players on the other team are doing 400k+ as well. That to me is completely unacceptable. Our taunts are easily usable off cooldown and so long as you actively identify players that are doing a lot of damage (in the cases of several of the linked images, over 400k on several players), you can easily hit 40k-100k guard whilist having strong damage output. To me, those players keen on showcasing their LOLDAMAGE should really have just rolled marauders. Guard too, is insanely strong as a juggernaut in that the relative opportunity cost for us to throw one up is nothing. Assassins and PTs have to actively swap form to have access to it (Pts have to stop and cast it while sins use all their energy). We merely give up rage that we may or may not have.

Lining up force crush ticks with a sweep can lead to much larger bursts than you think. Not getting it is purely detrimental to anyone that want's to deal dps. Unstoppable (unremitting) is good, but getting it does not outweigh losing your cornerstone ability.

It's hard to say and really depends on the situation both classes are in. Carnage can line up some nasty crits when they ravage with gore up, but vengeance can get pretty huge burst sequences if they bring someone to 30% and line up a savagery-buffed vicious throw.

Because there is no lack of DPS... we're one of the top DPS classes if we have gear. We are VERY much so dependent upon having it.

What the actual ****.

I'll rank them separately on three metrics, map design, competitiveness and gameplay. Map Design: 1) Novare 1.5) Voidstar (post room 1) 2) Huttball 3) Voidstar (the rest of it) 4) Alderaan Competitiveness: 1) Huttball 2) Voidstar 3) Novare 4) Alderaan Gameplay: 1) Alderaan 2) Novare 3) Huttball 4) Voidstar

Play whichever, both are viable.

It isn't all about damage, sadly.

I'm done here. You're trying to contend that fully geared players won't stack up and claimed to be one (or have innate knowledge of players with gear), showed up in defense gear, THEN made a thread whining about how DPS guardians were awful. Fail.

Master Strike is the most efficient and, quite frankly, the hardest hitting move we have in our arsenal. With Rampage procs, it sustains our rage generation while setting our next impale-> scream rotation. When a target hits 30%, you prioritize vicious throw oriented rotations over it. But to make it fair for you, I'll break down your arguments. That's irrelevant, entirely. You can honestly kill half the mobs in Black Hole simply by autoattacking. In any case, if master strike is actually being interrupted, then put in a ticket because it shouldn't be. If you're being knocked back during a master strike, that's entirely different and unavoidable. That being said, the first two ticks of master strike more than make up for any disruption in damage flow. You have ONE channeled skill. Ravage does not interrupt anything. If you're referring to have to stop mid-strike, that's still not a big issue since the first two ticks happen nearly instantly. MY ASSAULT AND SUNDERING ASSAULT ARE REDUCED BY ARMOR TOO! OH, GUESS I'LL JUST SIT HERE AND DO NOTHING. *ahem* Except for shatter, nothing in our arsenal ISN'T reduced by armor. So are you trying to tell me that you're trying to only use shatter to attack your opponent? Oh wait, you can't because you don't have a sunder effect up! I guess you'll just have to bleed on your enemies until they leave of boredom. Except that it does. You get 2 rage from it off of rampage procs and while you're in a ravage you are dealing a TON of damage during the wait for sunder to go off the GCD. Bladestorm has a long duration and you can easily get off a force scream before you ravage (in fact, your should try to do so so there are dots rolling during the ravage). Except that you're making a fundamental mistake that people in this thread are trying to correct. Master strike is HUGELY important for you and to blatantly ignore it and the constructive feedback people are providing is asinine and ultimately a detriment to yourself. All I've really gotten about reading your post is that you really don't like ravage and don't want to use it because it looks dumb and that you think other juggernauts that use it in PvE are dumb. Newsflash, not the case whatsoever.

Where's the math? I don't see a single equation or number crunch here at ALL. Lolhearsay... My guild has repeatedly cleared EC HM on 8 and 16m, we have no trouble at all with enrage timers. I am also second on our meters next to our marauder (both of us are in equal levels of gear). What? You're either in awful gear or not wearing enough expertise. In any case, damage alone is no indication of performance in a warzone. Juggernauts have the BEST map mobility of any class in the game at the moment and when you take into account how easily accesible guard is for a DPS juggernaut the point becomes moot. As far as dummy parses go, they are HORRIBLE indicators of a player's actual dps in a fight as you won't have buffs going around, spike damage at 30% (esepecially as veneance) or any indication of fight movement. Nobody needs to prove anything to anyone, MOX results are moot and mean nothing when you take all the variables into account. Do yourself a favor and OPTIMIZE your gear to the max (Meaning you're accuracy capped, have high surge/crit and a lot of power). Then make a post on how relative scaling is bad (which it's not, for the record) and make a post that mathematically demonstrates the scaling issue. As it stands, you've offered nothing but opinion and hearsay, not fact.

So if you don't play a sorc why are you commenting on the playstyle? Do you understand how kiting and LoS works in the slightest? You stun/root a person and dot them up, then dip behind a pillar if they try to get near you. Of course good players will try to *avoid* a person that's doing that , but when it comes down to it you cannot simply ignore the threat they present if they know what they're doing. The damage isn't all tickles and giggles. A good Sorc can shut down a player AND continue to deal high amount sof damage whilst keeping themselves alive (if they use their bubbles properly). Pulls/Charges, though useful to counter this type of play, are moot in this discussion as a good player can react to them accordingly (either by sprinting away or by avoiding them entirely).

So these *good* players ignore you? I'm not sure whether I want to laugh condescendingly or shake my head sadly... What a *good* player would do is retreat back to LoS, but since you have DOTS as madness you can still deal a TON of damage while you either pursue or swap targets. Madness plays very much akin to how aff locks did in WoW and they kited and dealt CC *all* the time...

Spec Madness -> Kite all melee -> ??? -> PROFIT

^ truth. Although quite frankly you only need one point in the skill to get off the full ravage on someone that's moving if you have a decent net connection (lag can cause you to miss the final hit if the client and server disagree on position).