The 4pc is easy to get and from the way it looks with bioware's design they're keeping the pve set bonus in every tier moving forward. It's not a needed change at the moment, so pining for it isn't going to yield any fruition.

Our rage generation is fine. Also, we have that on our 4 pc set bonus for PvE...

When it comes down to it, rateds are going to be about winning games. You can tout all the damage you want, but rating changes will be based on who wins and who loses. The *best offense is the best defense* approach only *really* works if you're playing against terrible players.

Viglance/Vengeance have far better utility and survivability than rage/focus at the moment. Not to mention that they are more rage efficient and far better at target stacking in a team fight due to unstoppable/unremitting. You can make the argument that you will see 6k crits every 12 seconds, but vengeance has THREE abilities that hit nearly as hard and in far more rapid succession. Coupled with savagery/force rush, there isn't a lot that can compete with a well-played vengeance juggernaut. Also, the change to SSM doesn't hurt vengeance at all (unless you play a hybrid spec, in which case you're SoL).

I've been PvPing in my PvE spec as of late due to a bit of laziness and I've got to say, the lack of pooled hatred is really noticeable if you're being kited in any way OR if you're going to to toe with an operative/marauder. The spike damage you can get with a big impale is massive, and with the changes to adrenals/relics on the PTS, I can't see us not picking it up for PvP.

It is possible, I've done it =P The issue with expertise at the moment is while it's an effective zero-sum game for players in full expertise gear, the defensive gain from expertise hits a diminishing return where the overall offensive gain (20-70 bonus damage) can outweigh the offensive gain from expertise handily.

Yes, you can. However, it's really suboptimal when you consider the only armorings with expertise that aren't slot specific are deprecated (obtained via a glitch in 1.0). You'd be hard pressed to find any today.

I'm sorry but without CONTEXT, discussion is impossible in scenarios like this. Here are MY questions: Were you fighting said marauder 1v1? Why were you out of position? Did you have CDs up? If so, why didn't you pop them. Were you already low? Did HE have CDs up? If so why didn't you recognize that and use CCs to distance yourself from the threat, you're a shadow, you have stuns and slows out the wazoo, as well as sprints and a vanish if things are really not going your way! Did he pop an adrenal or have a WZ buff? Why didn't you recognize that? There are countless variables that you absolutely have to take into account when engaging ANY player or claiming that certain things were out of the scope of your control. 5 seconds are THREE global cooldowns yet without any discussion of the context, you make it seem like you didn't react at all and let him walk all over you without trying. This isn't a L2P Post, this is a post asking you to RECOGNIZE the situation you were in and take some time and thought into understanding what YOU as a player could have done to prevent it. 99.99999999% of all situations like these can be avoided if you know how to react. If you don't, post what happened and maybe people can help, baseless QQ like this is non-constructive.

We do NOT need any buffs, our DPS is fine if our gear is optimized and if you have a good spec/rotation.

I specifically mentioned DPS, not Tanks, for good reason. The change to SSM is simply not needed with the other changes going on in the immortal tree. The change to crushing blow, though helpful on SOME encounters, is asinine when you consider the implications. Rage Damage was fine on the PTS as far as I saw on Thursday. With the passive stat gain on relics, the overall damage actually felt higher, if a bit less spiky. I was still getting 5.9k-6.2k crits (compared to around 7k max with adrenals on live). You also have better longevity now due to the overall reduction of Pace in TTK.

I was on the PTS on thursday, we're fine in PvP as vengeance and while the changes hurt rage you can live a little longer thanks to the changes.

I have no clue what you people are whining about. The changes DO NOT affect juggernaut DPS in PvE in the slightest. The change to SSM only hurts Hybrid Vengeance Juggs in PvP and Tank Juggernauts. Our PvE DPS is fine, if we're fully optimized our damage is simply phenomenal. I've pulled higher numbers than a lot of players on that list, I'm away from my gaming PC for the weekend but I can post those to the site later on.

It absorbed around 1960 damage on the first day of the PTS but that was a bug, it absorbs only ~980 damage, even after the change.

Wrong, it only absorbs 850 damage at the moment. I agree that sonic barrier is strong (and imo necessary) but cases can be made otherwise for static damage reduction talents in vengeance.

It's all about understanding the relative stat gain and the damage reduction lost over time. Currently, I run with 1240 expertise but I have modded out certain pieces of my gear to PvE equivalents (the hilt on my saber and the crystal to a power one). The net math shows that I gain ~60 bonus damage on melee attacks and 40 force attacks as well as a significant health gain. Even without multipliers taken into account, the stat gain is a much greater gain than the 1.2% damage reduction and 2.4% damage gain I've lost by not going up to 1305 expertise. Reitemizing is not something you should do on a whim, always think of the opportunity cost =P

Then they're idiots and need to reroll marauders, sadly. Shii-Cho Variants of rage are godawful in this patch unless you regularly play against undergeared players that scream like little girls when you charge at them. Soresu rage does similar levels of damage while maintaining high protection and survivability as well as very strong rage-efficiency, something that shii-cho variants of rage sorely lack.

You actually get no benefit towards your smashes from SSM at the moment. It only affects obliterate, vicious slash, sundering assault and assault. The change is actually a net buff for soresu rage, though losing out on 6% force damage kind of blows for them if they're not using shii-cho. EDIT: The change is strictly a nerf to thee specs that Juggernauts use at the moment, Straight up immortal/immortal dps and vengeance/immortal hybrids that swap between vengeance and soresu. The latter is effectively dead with the change since they'll be down 12% damage instead of 6% while in soresu (which was needed considering good players could mantain nearly all their DPS while acting in a tank role) while the former lost significantly more with the nerfs to Crushing Blow's primary damage hit.

It's been around since launch and can happen in any WZ. It's at it's worst when you're respawning but can't move and inevitably get booted (unless it's at a void star phase transition).

It's a buff to rage, actually. A buff to force damage means 6% more damage on crush, smash, push, scream AND choke which are all more important than obliterate and vicious slash. The big thing is that it forces even more damage into force attacks which I find odd considering they want to provide a means to work with other damage. The big nerf is when we go defensive in soresu, we'll actually be dealing 12% less damage in it as vengeance. It also effectively murders soresu-rage as you'll be losing on too much damage, period.

It's a buff to rage and no change at all for vengeance. The adrenal/relic changes, however, kill rage.

For a bit yesterday it was as high as 1900, that got nerfed fast

Did you play in defensive stance all the time as a warrior in WoW because you took less damage? (If you didn't play WoW, well w/e then). "Key to beat multiple targets" What does that even MEAN? Are you suggesting that it enables us to 1v3 or 1v4? Because if you're attempting that, then you're not playing as a team player and are either stalling or wasting your team's time. If you're playing in soresu all the time then you have garbage rage generation and horrible followthrough damage when going through a burst sequence. You're losing out on 6% overall damage which is REALLY bad. You can set up a burst, but it's simply not efficient. Anyway, I take back what I said about the patch. There's been no change whatsoever for Shien that hurts us, we'll still have the 6% overall damage in shien on top of what we already have (Shien's gain from SSM is still the same as before). This change just makes it so that when we go into soresu (when playing defensively) less strong in that we won't be able to execute our full burst sequences as efficiently as we are able to now.

It's a 6% nerf to force attacks which hurts, but quite honestly that's about it. We still have the full gamut of our toolset to work with. Maybe more people will finally start picking up accuracy in PvP (I'm at 99% atm) >_>

You should never be in soresu "most of the time" it's something you should swap to if you're being focused heavily or your team needs a guard out in a pinch. Otherwise, it's best to stay in shien for the extra damage.

This is why Rage needs fundamental talent restructuring and a focus (pun not intended) on other aspects of the class's strengths (mobility and protection). Rage efficiency is another thing that needs to get looked at, because as it stands, I don't see the tree getting a whole lot out of the changes (although 6% more damage on force attacks is a nice change over 6% singe-target damage).