Actually, way back toward the beginning of this thread I explained that I'm actually one of the people who thinks the gear gap is a joke. I'm casual, and I STILL have the gear. I had no problems killing people with better gear than me as a fresh 50, and no, I wasn't one of the first bunch of level 50's. That being said, I'm opposed to it because I've already seen what you're proposing. Champ --> Battlemaster is an absolute joke - the difference is negligible, and for many classes/specs there's no reason to switch unless you're ripping out the mods because it's a sidegrade/downgrade for you. We have the most minimal difference you can probably get with Battlemaster gear, and you know what you're still hearing? "People in full BM come into my warzones and curbstomp me." If that's the perception, fine. Take the gear advantage out. I'm sick of people using gear as a crutch for the reason why they LOST, not the reason they won/ I don't need the gear, I'll still play to win with a stat-based incentive or not. That's the only reason I'm not clamoring to keep the gap in place like you. I think it's so minimal it's a joke anyway, and frankly, just don't care. Don't need it, don't want it, never asked for it. This ridiculous format was never pervasive before WoW anyway. To the guy that mentioned D&D - that analogy doesn't hold anymore. MMORPG's cease to be like D&D when you add the "MMO" part. D&D was a PVE game, hence, the "Dungeon Master". It was about cooperative play versus a pre-designed environment. D&D was never designed to be used in competitive interpersonal combat, and you would never have someone come in at Level 10 in a Level 20 campaign and expect them to be effective - because the things they were facing would be too powerful for them to be useful against.

I didn't say anything about balance. No MMORPG is perfectly balanced, but it's almost impossible to argue that gear isn't contributing to an imbalance, if there even is one. If the incentive is one of many why would it make no sense to remove it? The only reasons posted here were that you want something to work toward. The reasons given for removing it were that it creates a barrier of entry to casual players, causes claims that wins only come from a gear difference, and just plain isn't necessary. For someone who knows they're good at PVP, they aren't going to NEED that advantage. They may want it, but I haven't seen a reason you would need it. I also see no way you could prove that gear stats have no imbalancing effect, that's just not possible. Even given plenty of other things to work toward, it's not enough for you because you refuse to concede that one, single incentive. You haven't given any reasons why, just that you need it. That's fine, I can live with that. Let's just move on. Nobody's right or wrong here, they're just preferences for certain playstyles. I may not see the need for it, but there's no reason someone else is wrong for wanting to run a hamster wheel. In the end, the devs will decide what they think is best for the game, and history will decide whether or not they were right.

Because nobody in the world is born into disadvantageous circumstances, and because Masters degrees mean soooo much. You paid your bill and showed up, that's what American education is. You made a better analogy than you realized. Do you have an inherent need for nobody to possess the same things as you? Do you get something out of it, to see someone else suffer? If you do, you probably don't deserve a say in the way people get treated anyway. Worry about what you have, and the skills you have to succeed. Who cares if someone else manages the same?

Yeah, this thread got so intense let's not forget that those things you mentioned are coming, so the "incentive" to PVP isn't leaving. The crux of the entire argument in this thread seems to be that for some people, the only incentive that they're interested in is a stat advantage. Fair enough. Let's just leave it at that. Nobody should be calling themselves "hardcore" because they want stats...the two have nothing to do with each other. Most people seem to think that if skill is really what you're testing, the gear variable should be removed. Many people who have achieved success in PVP STILL think the gear variable should be removed, because they don't want or need it, and it just creates unnecessary complaining. Let's all agree to disagree. This horse is so dead it should be laying in someone's bed sending a message to them.

No, what they allow you to do is build priority into single keybinds, so your one button does x skill first, if that's on cooldown, does x skill, if that's on cooldown, does x skill, and so on. I have no problem with what you're describing. I have a problem with how it usually gets used, because it takes what little "skill" remains in these games out. E.G. Little Timmy loses two seconds every time he accidentally presses a skill on CD because he has slow reflexes and doesn't know his keybinds well. Suddenly Little Timmy can do "leet deeps" because his computer does all the thinking for him based on a simple routine that he probably cut and pasted from someone's post/website. I'm not saying "I'm right". I'm just saying that to me, it's lame.

Can't say for sure, but my guess is you're seeing better players queue their mains for Warzones again. A lot of people after a certain point had no need for anything other than Valor. Ilum was the place to be for Valor, so the "Mains" of the PVPers just hung around looking for action on Ilum after doing their dailies. Now Warzones are satisfying the needs of just about all the players, so you're seeing more mains back in action, and stiffer competition. Personally, I love it, though I can sympathize if you just became re-acquainted with one of your server's best premades and they beat you six ways from Sunday.

No thanks to Macros. As others have already put it, it just puts a chore (scripting) into the game needlessly, and gives people an advantage over those that don't know how to do it. I understand that you can look up how to do it, but for the majority of the playerbase, especially now that these games have become more casual, it's going to be a step they never take, leaving them at a disadvantage. More importantly than that, it just dumbs down the game. I've read hundreds of posts complaining about Tracer Missile spam...I would hope that none of the people complaining about that want macros, because all you're doing is dumbing the game down into a button or two by macroing, and taking the little bit of "skill" that actually remains in playing an MMORPG out. I don't need computers to hit hotkeys for me. If you put in macroing you might as well just give us all Tracer Missile and take away the rest of our skills.

Yes. To keep me, must make more than a gear treadmill, though.

Do you have plans to ever create new instances on current worlds that open up maps for player development? This is a beautiful game, but it needs depth beyond a gear treadmill. Crafting doesn't count, it's just an add-on to the treadmill.

I'm not totally disheartened by the PVP in TOR - I'm a PVP enthusiast so I just love a good fight, win or lose, whether it's OW, in a Warzone, or naked dueling - but I will say that I totally agree with you about meaningful PVP. I had a brainstorming thread for a while as well, and we came up with some pretty great ideas. One of the big problems we've run into is that the roadmap for BioWare to make PVP meaningful (aside from Ranked Warzones) is a very long term one that won't relieve any of the folks that long for a realistic, living galaxy for probably about a year, and that's being optimistic. Many of the pessimists will tell you that they want to kill it totally, and we'll never see it. Hard to say for me. I really don't want to believe that. We've seen a whole lot of cookie-cuttering of WoW so far, which was the game that ruined meaningful PVP and worlds in general, and sucked all the depth out of MMORPG's and turned it into a very lucrative gear treadmill. I think at least some folks at BioWare would like to see us with meaningful PVP, I just don't know if EA would ever let them invest that much work in something that doesn't support the junkie-model of MMORPG's. Junkie model is cheaper, easier to design and deploy. Then again, they let BW spend money on Voice Acting, which has nothing to do with the junkie model, so maybe there's hope there somewhere. Nevertheless, glad to see people are still brainstorming ways to breathe actual life into our PVP. It's already fun, it's just fighting over useless playgrounds right now, that take us out of the world we quest in rather than immersing us in it. That's why I say "Breathe actual life". Ever been the last one in a warzone or able to walk around them? It's eerie, nothing but you and the tumbleweeds and the announcer who just sits there texting his wife telling her he's going to be home late again.

Just throwing this out there...at our Ilum event last night on my server, lag was actually noticeably worse anywhere near the zergs. We had been expecting things to improve slightly, especially with the new "Very Low" graphics settings, but they made no difference to most of us. The delays seemed to have little to do with graphics, as many of us in the raids tested and confirmed that playing at the highest and the lowest settings resulted in the same framerate. Most people seem to feel that lag in Ilum is majorly tied to tracking things in the quest log, and all the pop-up, raid-warning style text you have spamming your screen while you're getting kills. Please consider making this on-screen text optional if it's not already being done, and removing the capture of the different assault points from the Quest log, as there's really no reason for it to be there, and it's very annoying to manage in your quests anyway.

I play the entire game for fun, and to enjoy the Star Wars universe with my friends. PVP is my favorite aspect of these games, and yes, I have always PVPed for fun, whether people think my class/spec is good or bad, whether my team is good or bad, and whether or not my faction is outnumbered or not. I play for fun, and try to win every time, and I always leave with a smile.

Sorry, my bad! Troll away!

Thank you : ) I never said I hated progression. I've taken part in plenty of it. But when matching person versus person, is it necessary? Nope, not one bit. There was some intentional hypocrisy there, because it is oh, so sweet to see the situation turned around on people who have been bashing casual players all this time. If you had read the posts in this thread, you'd know there's no changing the minds of the folks in here. This discussion has been going on for some time with a handful of people clutching on to the claim that everyone else is lazy, lacking skill, or wants everything handed to them. I've never asked for anything handed to me. If it makes me a hypocrite for telling elitists to leave because it will make a better community I'm fine with that. There's a whole genre within this genre of Korean style grind based games if that's what you want. It seems like most people don't. For the happiness of both parties, I suggested they find a different game. I called people laughable for throwing one-line expressions of scorn out at the casual playerbase, and claiming they're "Hardcore", and yet afraid of an even playing field. I didn't say everyone in here was one of those people. But, it is pretty funny to be calling yourself a "real", "hardcore" PVPer, and yet be so ideologically averse to having less starting advantage over your enemy. To you that screams hypocrisy, because you want to spin it that way. To me, that screams positive, because I'm demonstrating how little anyone cares about that elitist attitude, and trying to chase off that toxic element in the community. I guess that shows the power of opinion-I was accusing the people that say they're hardcore of being hypocrites, which in turn makes me one to you. Progression is a part of MMORPG's, that's true. But having the progression be stat improvements garnered based on playtime has never made a community better, especially when that stat improvement is tied to player-versus-player combat.

Exactly, this is just filler-time, pre-pre-season, where we wait for the incentive to PVP (aside from fun), which is the rating system. I don't see what else you could ask for if achievement and your leet status is what you care about. The MMORPG gods will look deep into your soul and assign you a number based on how many matches you've won. That number will still allow people to feel better than others, just like the gear did, if that was their bag. If not? Meh, plenty of us will just be PVPing because, you know, it's fun.

Like I said, that's an okay thing. The people calling themselves hardcore that are afraid of an even playing field are kind of laughable. Let them leave, whether they think they're "hardcore" or not, I couldn't care less. If you find grinds fun, go play a Korean game like RF Online. They're out there. Most people don't want a grind-fest, because they have things to do besides play all day. What's been making this community feel like a cesspool for so long are the gangs of self-proclaimed hardcore PVPers haunting these forums, 90% of whom have supposedly cancelled their subs, insulting people with sad one-liners like "L2P". If you've played lots of MMORPG's, you might have noticed the common thread - that the games without gear progression, or with minimal gear progression have the best communities hands down, and the most active and vibrant servers. While many of them lacked the IP's to draw people to them in the numbers that TOR does, they nonetheless serve as a great example of why gear is what's wrong with these games. If the little golden twinkle in your eye is the only thing motivating you that's okay. Go fight the computer with your phat lewts. If you honestly think you need to stratify player stats in competitive play you must be blinded by your avarice, though. There's just no reason to need it, once there's a ranking system in place. "I want to feel like I'm achieving something". That's the whole point of the rating. It doesn't give you an advantage over someone else (no matter how minimal), just the bragging rights. If you can't give up the advantage, there must be a real reason besides "I deserve it". No, no you don't. Your extra playtime doesn't entitle your character to be inherently better than someone. If YOU'RE inherently better than someone, prove it. With your rank, and your stats. Put up or shut up. Personally, I think most of these "scured" kiddies will quit before it gets that far, and use the laziness of other players as an excuse. I'd say they're a bunch of charlatans that are afraid the villagers are going to wise up about the snake oil they've been selling. How's that for an opinion? I've been saying all along the "gear gap" in this game is a joke. It's easy to get, doesn't take skill, and isn't as bad as everyone's making it out to be. That's all the MORE reason to get rid of it! I did the grind with everyone else, had no problem getting wins as a fresh 50. I'm not asking for this for me. I'm asking for it for the good of the game. The elitist attitudes that pervade the vocal minorities that flood MMO forums with useless posts are the DIRECT RESULT of a greed-based system. The only motivator designed into games like this and WoW which are entirely based on gear is the acquisition of more gear. Maybe I'm just not as distracted by shiny objects. If you want to know how good someone is before you group with them, that's what friends' lists and guilds are for in MMORPG's. The people you put on it are a much better indicator of who you think are good PVPers than a HP number, an expertise rating, or a cosmetic title. If you're scared of equalized gear, you're not as hardcore as you think you are. Maybe it's time the ones throwing it around all this time take their own advice, and "L2P".

Because there's nothing to be afraid of if they do, and a thousand rivers' worth of shed tears to prevent. If you are afraid, you might not be as "hardcore" as you think.

Well, nobody's stopping you from playing to win.... "Giving away the farm" is creating a balance - or more accurately, a more even playing field. Gear doesn't factor into that choice of playstyle. Play to be the best. Your numbers will speak for you when ranking comes, gear or no gear. You'll just have less people saying it's only because you play all day if they take the gear out. I personally think the gear is really easy to get in this game. If it's a problem for people I'm not afraid of getting rid of it though. I'd rather not have my success or failure tarnished by claims of "gear gaps" and imbalance. You introduce a tier that's barely better than the others and suddenly it's the cold war and everyone's worried about gaps. Fine; as others said, real PVPers shouldn't need another advantage.

No, it was that much of a difference over Champion Gear. Enough expertise to compete could be gotten the very first day, even for a casual player. I and many others are living proof. The difference between BM and Champ gear was basically nonexistent. Once you get 500 expertise you have all you need anyway, and a mix of Champ/Cent (easy to get within a week or two of casual play, an hour or two in a day) would get you to that 500 easily. There were many people in Champ/BM gear that weren't that great, because they leveled faster or got their gear mainly from Ilum. Those folks were easy to kill even with 40 expertise. You get a lot more than that just from having maxed commendations and bags saved up. I didn't even do that, and still had no problem, and like I said, I'm casual. I don't want the crutch, don't need it, which is why I'm supporting taking the gear tiers away. Part of my reason for that is I was sick of the opposite as well - people using gear as the excuse for why they lost, rather than admitting that they aren't as good as they think they are.

Yeah...I'd agree with that. I've been saying the same thing about the depth of theme park MMORPG's. This is a very expensive game of dress-up with digital dolls, until they add guild v guild, real RvR, building of structures, and having an affect on the planets in the galaxy. That's all the gear grind is.

Your solution 1 was the way things were already. Battlemaster gear was barely an upgrade, in many cases a sidegrade or downgrade, and people were still up in arms saying that "people in full BM come in 2 shotting me". Not exactly accurate reporting, but still, lots of people felt that way. As long as there's a difference, people will use it as a crutch, no matter how small it truthfully is. I don't want that crutch to be there anymore, sick of hearing that people lost because of gear. You can't flat out say that everyone does or doesn't lose because of gear, so take the variable out. There are enough as is. Solution 2 is what was coming basically, with rated Warzones. I don't think you have to queue for Rated Warzones. I guess we'll see how many people want the progression/ranking and how many don't. I know personally, I'd like having a choice, but I'm going to play the rateds more often than not. I guess we'll see how it pans out.

Sounds like you're projecting real life experience onto a game...fair enough, I guess, but then you need to consider the alternative, that maybe if you were as good as you THINK you are, you'd be running your department, or supervising those "bads", and able to clean house. The good news is, if you're this much better in the game, your stats will prove it. In most corporate settings, "stats" are actually the main metrics your bosses are using to gauge your performance. It's possible you aren't performing that much better than the people you're considering "bads". I'm all for passionate tirades, but it seems like you just want to insult people that play differently than you. That would be okay, if there were really any grounds for an insult. MMORPG's were already so easy a chimp could play them, they had started that before WoW. The ONLY thing the gear grind does is show who spent more time playing. Someone else was spot on in this thread - more time played CAN mean that the person is more experienced, but many times it doesn't. You just can't make a blanket statement like that. Same thing with having good gear - it can mean they're great, or it could mean they exploited Ilum or AFKed in Warzones all day as many folks with access to computers at work did because of the lack of penalty. What do you have to fear by evening the playing field? Why so much hate? Somewhere Emperor Palpatine is screaming "YESSS!!!! YESSSSS!!!!"

Nah, actually I haven't. I've been saying all along that the gear difference between BM and a fresh 50 isn't impossible, and that from "full BM" to Champion/Centurion is kind of a joke, especially Champ. BM is a sidegrade/downgrade for some people. My point is, if it's a big deal to some people, who cares, let's get rid of it. Your sense of progression is WINNING, whether by yourself or with your friends. When you're winning 100% of your games, then you can say you can't progress anymore. While you win, you get different gear. Sure, its stats may not be better, but at least you earned something different...what's the big deal? By the time you're a perfect player that has "progressed" all the way and never loses, I'm sure there will be new content in the game, new armor, and new things for you to make your character grow with. Even better, maybe they'll add substance to the game on TOP of gear, like a sandbox element. Maybe these changes to economics will give TOR a healthy crafting sector. Who knows? The stat values have traditionally just inflated in these games due to the PVE sector - their gear typically gets bigger stats, because the PVE Dev's idea of difficulty is usually adding more HP to bosses, and quicker enrage timers, and making you learn to tango instead of waltz. Nobody said you can't min-max, and look for the best combination of gear, both stat-wise, and cosmetic wise - let's face it, they'll NEVER get rid of stats - but PVP should be "relatively" even, even in this kind of game. There are enough x-factors like connection speed, PC, peripherals, etc. without letting people become significantly better as a function of time-played. My eyes are dry as a bone.

Thank you...I know it's sad...most of my guildies avoid the forums like the plague except for the "cooperative" parts of it. For some reason I still feel the need to hang around and try to defend sanity and reason at times. I appreciate the nod, it's easy to forget when you read these boards that everyone isn't an elitist nutjob that complains constantly, hates this game, and yet continues to play it.

Root of your problem - You're speaking as if gear is the point of the game. In fact, it's mostly what's wrong with these games. Fun with your friends, or fun on your own (a new concept to the genre, but now valid) is the point of these games. Not having fun - don't play. Want to be measured? Use the ranking system to feel that boost of e-peeny goodness. That's your achievement. I'm not one of those "the gear gap was impossible" people, but it's not like you need a greater advantage for already being better? That's the "elitist" community in these games coming out in the design, and I, for one, am glad it's dying. If some FPS kid wants to come in and beat me, let him. I'll either school him in a whole new type of game, or bow to him respectfully when he wins. I don't need an advantage for having more playtime. Your brain is your advantage.