Then the presence (or lack there of) of a PvP stat wouldn't make a lick of difference, would it? All the PvP stat does is make it so PvP is based less on player skill and more on player gear. It isn't until you have PvP matches between people who are equally geared when the skill comes more into play. If you get rid of the PvP stat, and shift stat balance from stat heavy gear to stat heavy character, then you have a balanced playing field with PvP.

*facepalm* What part of I was at work at the time so could not log into the game did you not get? And if that's all you pulled from my post that I "don't understand how expertise actually works", then you failed on comprehension on what I was posting about. I'm not going to explain it again.

The quick answer is easy: for those who don't PvP. The longer answer (from me) will have to wait (work).

Sorry... just wanted to make that stand out more.

[sarcasm]Ah, of course, I forgot... it's impossible for EA, BW, or WoW to not hire the best of the best and as such impossible for one of their players to actually be smarter than them in something. It's also impossible that maybe the smart people in the company have to answer to a not so smart boss, no matter how hard they try to get a point across.[/sarcasm] Of course I'm being sarcastic there because I don't consider myself as being smarter, however I am in the unique position of not having to answer to a boss, who generally speaking, are smart in management, not actual mechanics (perfect example would be the CEO of the company I work for refusing to sign off on the expense of upgrading our 15 year old database software under the assumption that it should be able to last as long as our 60 year old manufacturing machines... despite us trying to explain it to him). Also, the boss is under pressure of what they think will actually appease the players. If a lot of the feedback they get is PvP players don't like PvE'ers being able to just cross over (and vice versa), then the logical conclusion to some is to completely segregate them. Also, SWTOR is copying WoW... so that doesn't mean jack in regards to their personal skill. The fact that they're having a lot of trouble with fixing and balancing things in the game, however.... Anyway, here's what I was looking for (and I'll be go to heck if I can recall the actual gear name now, but these are all lvl 55 Combat Medic for Trooper... just what I happened to see first and grabbed the stats from). These are just the main 5 pieces, too: Chest, Hands, Legs, Feet, Head. PvP End/Aim: 685/640 PvP Exp: 750 (and just to point out, the Battlemaster gear set I found earlier was 500 expertise...) Lower end 55 PvE: 775/720 Ultimate PvE: 860/785 Ok, so the first logical choice when segregating PvP/PvE is to make the main (PvE) stats on PvP gear lower than PvE, but then also give it a PvP specific stat so that higher end PvE gear doesn't mean much in PvP, either. But the place where they began failing, IMO, wasn't even in the segregating of PvP/PvE... it was the large gap in stats between the PvE set tiers. Now, just merely looking at the difference between them as is it's like "so what's the big deal?" Well, when each of the individual pieces has close to double that gap on them alone, yeah, not really a big deal. But how we got this high in the first place, is. IMO, they really put the bonuses the wrong way. You should be getting more off from leveling, not from what gear you choose to wear. But that's beside the point. Either way, when normal leveling gear has a stat difference of approx 2 points between each piece per level, then you get this gear, same level, same quality, yet there's a 17 point difference between each piece of gear? Obviously, I can see where some would argue "well no one would go through the grind for a mere 2 point difference on each piece", and that would be wrong. Some games' (such as STO) have top end gear that doesn't even have a 1% gain in its stats vers the next tier down, and yet people people continue to grind and pay out the nose for this slight extra edge. Jeeze I hate trying to explain things... never been overly good with words.... Anyway, the point I'm trying to make here is that first, they shouldn't have had such large gap margins in the gear. This makes gear less important in PvP and more skill based (as is the point behind PvP... Player vers player, not player's gear vers player's gear). Second, really, when trying to balance a cross-over PvP/PvE system, you should do it from the PvP standpoint first, then balance PvE around that. PvP is the static/baseline... and mobs don't have gear of their own, so their stats can be done with whatever. This makes it so you can balance the health/damage of everything in PvE without having to add some PvP/PvE only stat into the game. I'm done wasting my game time trying to explain this. This is the route they should've gone, but obviously they didn't and now they're struggling to try to make it all work. I'll say again... Pre-WoW splitting the gear, everything worked fine. Oh and PS to your PS... it's kind of hard to look up gear sets without knowing the name of it... which is why I asked in my initial request for either the stats or the gear name so I could look it up myself.

You obviously don't get why I'm requesting the stats. You're hung up on my saying "remove expertise with the gear's current stats and all will be fine". Of course it won't be fine! They have everything balanced around expertise! And that site you gave me obviously isn't up to date or is incomplete. For item sets, they show only 2 sets: Rakata and Battlemaster. Anyways, I'm out. I'm not paying attention to the forums again until I've gotten in game and looked things up. As I consider it, too, I'm going to need the "entry" level gear into PvP/Ops as well. That'll make a better comparison.

I like

Maybe this is hard for you to understand... I'm looking for all of the stats (including the expertise) so I can do a side by side comparison and show why I feel as though expertise was a "cover up" by the devs to hide their flaws in balancing. But if you don't want to help me out, that's fine. I'm out in an hour. Once I've had a chance to relax, eat, do anything else I need to around the house and can take the time to sit down in front of the game, I'll get it myself and then show you.

My impression of PvP (and many others that I've known who do avid PvPing) is that it's all about skill, not the gear. Whereas PvE was the reverse, although a measure of each were still needed for both. If PvE is balanced right, then there is no need for an extra stat to bring PvP up to par (and in that sense, an extra set of "PvP" gear) as the stat difference between "top end" gear and that which you can easily get without raids should not be that significant. Again, I used to play WoW before there was PvP gear. I played on a PvP server with a RL buddy of mine at the time. PvP seemed to work just fine.

If I had the stats, I could tell you....

Well, I've kind of skimmed through this one. I can say that I see and agree with people's PoV on wanting this put in. And forgive me, I'm definitely not saying that it should have no priority... especially after having been requested for over a year now. But, I guess I'm failing to see where this is a "need" or "must have" vers a really big "want". Especially in the sense to where it should be taking a higher priority over actual game altering problems (I know not everyone feels that way, but reading through the thread, it's obvious to me that some do). I don't see where this would really add any "realism" as I know I saw a couple quotes from a few months ago. It's not like in RL we have chat bubbles that appear over our heads.... But yes, it would help you identify more easily who is saying what, assuming you aren't in a crowded area where the chat bubbles are over lapping each other... which kind of defeats the purpose, IMO. I also remember seeing one post in here from someone saying they wanted to say "thanks" to someone else for helping them, but didn't get a response and felt as though the lack of a chat bubble was the reason why (or rather, if chat bubbles had been present, the recipient of the thanks would've noticed and replied). I hate saying this, but even if chat bubbles were in, he probably wouldn't have gotten a response anyway... and I'm not saying this to be rude or some how imply there is something wrong with the person who felt this way... I'm saying it because of how I feel about random-dude-X that he was trying to communicate with. If he didn't reply, then he probably was not paying attention to/caring about the chat window, maybe even had it closed. And if that's the case, even if there had been chat bubbles, he probably would've had that turned off, too. On top of that, chat bubbles are being asked for what? Say, yell, emote... maybe whisper? What's the range of /say? 20m? Most people who randomly help do so, then take off back to their next thing. "/say"ing thanks to someone has a good chance of being done once their out of range. You want to thank someone, whisper, which has an audio cue to the recipient. If they're even half paying attention, they'll see it and reply (if they care). Chat bubbles would not help with this. Finally, I fail to see where people cannot get along without it. How do you think people used to do it before chat bubbles were even first introduced? With any game I get into, if it has chat bubbles (and the option for them), I turn them off. I then create additional tabs in the chat window. The first of these? A "zoneless" chat. The only things it will show are say, yell, emote, group, guild (unless I'm in a *very* active guild, then I may move this to its own tab), and whisper. Everything else is turned off in it. If I'm in a situation where I need or want to pay attention to these forms of chat without worrying about the nonsense that usually goes on in General, this is the tab I open. I've even quite often dragged the various tabs out to create multiple windows to monitor each. Again, I'm not saying that they shouldn't add this to the game... you have my sympathies and even my support... but this is not a game altering "need". EDIT: Heh... wall-o-text... didn't mean for that... seemed like a lot less while typing it up....

Get me the stats and I'll get you your answers.

Why'd you make the text so small? It's hard to read. I think a better focus would be improvement in the organization of the tree of things you can make so it isn't a disorganized mess.

The only problem is those that have already gotten everything they need/want from the WZ Comms. They'd then have no need to stay subbed.

Could someone help me out here in the stats from the "best" PvE and PvP gear, or at least the names of them so I can try looking them up in an online database? At work, so can't exactly pop open the game to look myself.... And when I'm asking for the stats, I am asking for all stats, so not just the Expertise on PvP stuff, for example.

For some reason that doesn't make sense to me... you're saying you started (I'm assuming) Tantooine 2 levels higher, has reached the proper level he should be at the end of the planet before reaching the end of the planet... and yet he isn't gaining enough XP from missions?? Either you worded things wrong, or you are thinking about it backwards. Also, just would like to point out, my Trooper is lvl 31 (almost 32, actually) and he has just started the "bonus" series on Nar Shadda. I have not done any dailies, flashpoints, PvP, space, etc... strictly the world and class story missions including the bonus series from Taris.

Sounds to me that this right here was their problem and the introduction of the new stat was an attempt to cover it up. My memories of when I played WoW, there was no "PvP" gear. Everything seemed to work fine then....

^ This. Thus, I would think the request would be more appropriate to ask for dual-speccing to be added, and as such, the ability to save pre-configured toolbar layouts to go with each spec.

Yeah, I was wondering about that. They must've added that stuff in sometime after I left. And yeah, I did notice how "WoW" like this game is.

Yeah, these would be good to have.

I have to ask it... what other MMOs out there have PvP/PvE specific gear/stats? Of all the ones that I've played so far, this is the first....

Every other forum I have ever participated in allows one to delete their own posts, most up until the point that someone else replies to the thread. It's not a "mod" tool to remove your own post. It is to remove someone else's.

The problem is that Makeb follows the class stories in story chronology, and yet while we're not allowed to do the chapters of our class story out of order we can Makeb? Makes no sense.

o/ Me

Heh... yeah, you're going to have a lot of people with this mentality I'm afraid. ^ [support Op]