In your opinion.

Don't tell me you are one of those misinformed people that thinks there is a Sith lord out there that can measure up to Palpatine? The closest one in the whole setting is Vitiate, and Palpatine could still crush him, demonstratably so.

This is the first thing I have ever seen you write on these forums, and it is a straight-up lie. Not a good first impression. In case you are curious, George Lucas has a timeline that goes back for over a thousand years, right up to Darth Ruin, who came before the New Sith Wars. He also says that the EU that is post RotJ is an alternate timeline, not that it does not exist. In fact, the planet of Coruscant was originally an EU creation, but he used it anyway for his movies. No he didn't.

I would imagine that the reason you don't see a whole lot of that going on, is because those groups already have their own civilizations, and aren't blood-thirsty conquerors like the Sith are.

I disagree totally. Anakin was damaged goods the moment they took him away from his mother. He had a powerful root of fear that he could never deal with. It was ultimately his own cowardice that kept him from following basic Jedi teaching about facing and understanding fear, that led him to where he was. When you look at the details of Obi-Wan's life, he is seen as what is basically the penultimate Jedi. Read the RotS novelization and you will see what I am talking about, he is second only to Yoda, and perhaps ties with Mace Windu. Mace Windu certainly believed that in some respects Obi-Wan was a better Jedi than himself. Personally, knowing how Qui-Gon trains his apprenticies, I think Anakin would have been worse off. He was pretty harsh on Obi-Wan throughout his apprenticeship, and let's not forget about Qui-Gon's first padawan, that trainwreck named Xanatos. Hell, even Qui-Gon said that Obi-Wan was, "a much wiser man..."

I just want to note that George specifically said that the Sith themselves in some ways act as a cancerous agent in a host body, the host body being the Sith order. The dark side was never likened to cancer by Lucas, he in fact said it was natural and necessary.

Well, this is kind of touched on in the RotS novelization and Jedi VS. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force. What it boils down to, is that he had a choice to let go of his attatchments there as the Force willed, or hang onto them. He chose to let go, as that was the time to do so. That is why he did not try to save Anakin or take him with him. As for hwy he didn't kill him, the same books touch on this as well. Long and short of it, it would have been wrong of Obi-Wan to strike Anakin down while he was disabled and no longer a threat. Jedi principles and all that. It would have been a death that would not have directly protected life, which only serves and strengthens the dark side of the Force.

While that serves it's purpose, that kind of sounds like it was taken straight from the wookieepedia article. My own rules....now that the Sith code is clearly defined for the purpose of this thread, (and it is a functional definition, which is kind of hard to locate on these forums) this makes making our own rules based on that a lot easier. From now on, the Sith order will function thusly. There will only ever be one single Sith lord, and this Sith lord shall be the epitome of dark side mastery. This Sith lord will not take a new apprentice, but will instead attain immortality, or the Sith order will fall. Whenever feasible the Sith lord will eliminate life, to strengthen the dark side of the Force. Ultimately, the Sith lord will attain the greatest power by ending all life everywhere. This has the advantage of epitomizing Sith philosophy, but the disadvantage of keeping the fate of the Sith teetering on a knife-edge. That, in its own way, is also an advantage though.

Vader can exert several tons of kinetic force at once through the Force, and he was sand-bagging whenever he fought Luke in the OT. If he wanted Luke dead, he would have moved faster than Luke's eyes would have been capable of tracking at the time, and hit him with a blow powerful enough to rend durasteel. Vader was a scary son of a *****.

Sith and Jedi philosophies are not what you think they are. Jedi philosophy could fairly easily be summed up as a combination of Buddhist, Taoist, and Sufi elements. Traditions that normal, happy people follow in the every day real world. Sith philosophy on the other hand, states that individual ego will is supreme, and should subjugate all of the rest of existence under it. Good luck with that.

All of my friends and I have been on the edges of our collective seats concerning the Jedi Knight story. Don't know what the problem is.

No offense, but I hate people like you. See that kind of thing on the internet all the time and I can never help but think. "how intellectually dead must one be to reach that point?" Also, you don't gimp yourself on gear choice by running contrary to what might otherwise be considered a standard alignment. There are options for everyone....save for those dirty neutrals.

You should look up method acting, and consider the concept in context of really scary and nasty antagonists. Might put some of this into perspective.

It was around quite some time before then. We saw the gaurdian and consular appear as classes as early as the first d20 version of the SW RPG, and shortly after that, I believe before, or concurrently with KotOR, we got Saga Edition, which included the Sentinel.

So I guess we are just ignoring the fact that Threepio functioned and felt exactly as a human does in the Original Trilogy. Cool.

"Threepio, would you shut up and listen to me?!? Shut down all the garbage mashers on the detention level! Shut down all the garbage mashers on the detention level!" I can cite more examples of good ol' Artoo hacking stuff in the movies, but that makes my point well enough, and it is the funniest.

Classic argument for why people don't like Jedi. Rather than re-write my debunk of this argument, I will just ask people to use the search function. God knows I re-write it often enough for it to be simple to find. That said, let me explain why I made both Jedi and Sith characters. It is as simple as the opportunity to personally explore more secrets of the Force, to immerse myself in those aspects of the setting as a character, instead of as an observer.

This is going to be fun. Before I get started, how about you outline the Sith code as it relates to the core of Sith teaching? Also, including the name of the original author of the Sith code would be a good idea.

Not all of the information in there is accurate, and it doesn't matter anyway, as the Sith were the ones who did all the real damage to the Sith in that fight. Not like they still didn't have their actual homeworld of Ziost to fall back to, as well as their other sacred worlds in that cluster. Even if the goal of the Jedi was to kill all of the Sith on Korriban, you would have found nothing but military personal and powerful sith priests, as Korriban was a funerary world, and not a major population center. Now say for the moment that the Jedi were fixing to commit full blown genocide as it is typically understood. I am talking the wholesale slaughter of cowering women and children who are helpless to defend themselves. If that was the will of the Force, then not only will Jedi do it, but they should, because it was good for the galaxy, and possibly in some way even good for the victims, depending on how much their overuse of the dark side had twisted the cores of their beings, as it does with the Sith race. No, I am not attempting to argue for or justify genocide, I just want people to think before getting hung up on buzzwords like genocide, good, and evil.

I just want to note that depending on which specific definition you are talking about concerning the word, "evil," it may or may not be. One definition of evil is summed up simply as malevolence, harsh and painful action. That is pretty objective, as most of us here can feel physical pain. Now watch how fast that definition can be turned into a functioning platform. Yay maxim of correct desire, and thank you Greek philosophers for giving it to us.

Okay. No. That was the lie that Anakin kept telling himself. He became a Sith to avoid facing the fears that tormented him for much of his life. Two things: In multiple sections of Star Wars media, it is confirmed that actions are the only thing that matter, and intentions do not. Secondly, Anakin did not love Padme, at least not by the start of Episode 3. His motivation for being a Sith came purely from fear. The RotS novelization, and the dialogue in the actual movie, makes it quite clear that he was trying to keep Palpatine from dying, because he wanted the information about saving people from death that was promised to him. Even though he hated Obi-Wan by then, he still saw Obi-Wan as more of a father figure than Palpatine. This is hilarious. This isn't just an appeal to relativist thinking, this is a poorly thought out appeal to relativist thinking. To start with, I am going to fire off a quote from the man himself, George Lucas. "The Force is not inherently good or bad, but it does have a benevolent side and malevolent side." Yes, he specifically uses the words benevolent and malevolent. See, it works like this. It doesn't matter if your hand is numb, and you stick it in a fire. You may not feel it burning, but it is still inflicting damage in the same way as if a person who had feeling in their hand stuck it into a fire. The Force works the same way. You may be getting something different from your perceptions, but your perceptions are immaterial compared to the reality. If we really want to get into how you are defining good and evil, I can simply say this. The light side, is totally 100% beneficial and helpful to all life everywhere. Rather than simply saying it is good, I will say, it is good for you. The dark side is the opposite in every way. It is bad for you, and is always, no matter what, harmful. To the user and the victim. A good man who almost became evil. See? Still clearly defined. Having a clearly defined system of good and evil doesn't preclude people from crossing the line from one to the other. In fact, it is the only thing that makes it possible. Without a clearly defined system of good and evil, you have no line to cross. This begs the question, "what makes a good person?" If you are going to create a line of thought that poses a question, particularly one that could be an if-then, you need to answer the question, and not rely on an appeal to ignorance to make your point. The answer is no, of course he wasn't a good man because he was a Jedi. He was a good man because he was guided by the Force and followed the light, the benevolent side of the Living Force. Mace Windu's first thought in any situation was, "be guided by the Force, and from there, act, regardless of how that turns out." There were plenty of times where he spared people. The thing about the Jedi approach to combat, is when they sense through the Force, that it is a fight to the death (which is why they are always on about the will of the Force, and being in-tune with it, so they don't mistakenly identify a situation) they respond by quickly and decisively ending the fight, saving innocent lives. See the above quote about the two sides of the Living Force, you know, where George Lucas mentions benevolence and malevolence. Lucas was the one who defined the Force as it is, so resent his claim. Then there is of course the Unifying Force, or as Lucas called it, the Greater Force, which deals with our place in the universe, connection to all life, and destiny. Connecting to that is done through letting go of an ego or will-based understanding, which is absolutely beneficial. This is true. but it is worth noting that the Force has a good and bad side. This is not true. The Force can only be wielded for evil. The Force can only be communed with for good. Note the difference there, and then go back and look at what I said about the codes of the respective orders. Imposing one's will upon the Force, regardless of the result, is dark, period. It also isn't the Jedi way. Depends on which specific agent you are looking at, and what said agent does. Don't try and take this into the realm of generalization, as that is not where this is headed. If you want actual discussion, we can either focus on ethical philosophies of groups, or specific individuals within groups, not the groups themselves. I would however, say that the overall ethical philosophy of the Imperial Intelligence is pretty harmful to most life. Especially now that I know more about the story. I think you know the answer to this is, "not enough information." This sounds like a lead-up to a point you are trying to make. Simply saying, "dealing with the Sith," does not provide nearly enough information to make a value judgement. Standing up for one's ideals hardly constitutes good. What if those "ideals," are horribly harmful to everyone? Not enough information for a value judgement. Again, fire, it's either hot or it isn't. Doesn't matter how you percieve it, it still burns. Examine the facts of the case, and then based on what you know, make a judgement call. Personal perspective doesn't even have to play a major role in this. At most it can be limited to barely affecting judgement at all, depending on how much one wishes to keep personal bias out of an analysis You're welcome.

Lot of wild ideas and big misconceptions floating around in this thread about what the Sith and Jedi are and aren't. I have seen a few people notice them and try to tackle them. If I had more time to type up this post, I would attempt to do those details greater justice, but I don't, so I can't. Instead, I will give the cliffnotes version of my debunk of what I have come to know as, "The Lie of Lumiya." The Lie: Sith philosophy does not have to be evil, and can be used for a good end. People like Vader and Palpatine were misrepresenting Sith teaching and what it is that they stand for. Misconceptions and reality: Bear with me, this will take a bit. One big misconception I have seen, is the idea that Jedi don't use emotions when tapping into the Force. They do. Specifically, they use emotions like joy and love when they tap into the light side. Not all Jedi from all eras function this way, but it is seen enough in the EU, particularly within the post RotJ era that I think it has merit. Another big one is that the Sith use the full range of emotions. They don't. They can't. Emotions that are either weak or positive don't fuel the power of the dark side. Vader, for example, loses access to his bodily regenerative abilities when he experiences joy. Another example is when guilt completely shuts off Bane's ability to access the dark side. The dark side corrupts. This is not true. People think this because they don't know what the dark side is. People externalize the dark side, when they shouldn't. The cave in TESB, Jacen Solo's experience with Vergere, and Mace Windu's reasons for creating Vaapad all demonstrate how darkness is something that is internal. If the dark side corrupted, then everyone in Star Wars would be all corrupt, all the time. With those three big ones out of the way, I am going to quickly examine their philosophies, and their mantra. Note that the two are not the same, but one is designed to facilitate the other. I will look at each successive line one at a time, to better understand how the two relate. There is no emotion, there is peace. Many people take a literal reading of the first line of the Jedi code and think, "oh, they don't like emotion, or think it is a bad thing, so they avoid it or something." That is not true. What this is, is a denial of a personal ego that is separate from the rest of the galaxy, and a recognition of the connection to all life through the Unifying Force. Peace is a lie, there is only passion. This is not stating that the natural state of all things is war. This is not saying that peace is bad. From the Sith perspective, peace is impossible, because there is nothing to have peace with. Everything in the whole galaxy is wrapped up in the self, the ego. There is no ignorance, there is knowledge. My actions are informed by guidance from the Force. Simple as that. Note that this is an ideal, or rather a goal, not a statement of fact. Through passion, I gain strength. I use the Force through an imposition of will via the ego, and there is no stronger imposition of will than that of passion. Specifically, anger, which has been confirmed to be the strongest emotion available to Force users. Note the difference in focus with the mantra so far. There is no passion, there is serenity. Hm, look at that, passion, peace, lies, serenity... I'm sensing a pattern here. Rather than impose my will on the Force, I recognize my connection to all life, and through that connection, access the Force. Through strength, I gain power. With my strong passions, I can impose my will onto the Force, and bend it to my will. There is no chaos, there is harmony. The focus here is again on the galaxy as a whole in macrocosm vs. microcosm. The Force guides life, rather than individual egos forcing things. Through power, I gain victory. With the power that I gained through imposition of will, I can kick anybody's butt that dares disagree with me. Through victory, my chains are broken. Because I can kick anyone's butt, I don't have to do what anyone says. No, really, this is the main thrust of those two lines. Sounds pretty childish when seen in those terms but there it is. There is no death, there is the Force. Ah, now we come to a realization of where the Jedi code leads. My death is immaterial, because I am giving back everything that I was and am, into the Force. We see the ego finally subsumed by the Greater Force. I will come back to this later. It is at this point, that the Jedi returns all that they are to the Force, including their own power. Yes, Jedi do go after power as well, but not so they can cling to it, fearful of losing it. They claim it for the purpose of surrendering it. Specifically, surrendering it back into the Force, literally giving strength to all life everywhere, which is the focus of their code. There is so much more to say about Jedi teaching here, but I have classes to attend, and I may very well come back to this if I can tear myself away from Book of Sith. The Force shall free me. At first this seems like the least scary line in the bunch, sounds like a good thing, freedom achieved through using the Force. What it actually means though, is certain death for every living thing in the galaxy, should it ever be totally realized. Here we see the Force actually being subjugated into the position of actor on behalf of the ego, freeing the ego from its constraints. This should scare the hell out of every single character in the setting. A Sith that has achieved this has literally made the energy of life itself, his *****. There is so much more I could say about this, and I may when I have the time. But for now, I will say that once a Sith has complete control over life everywhere, due to their quest for power, they will likely kill everything so they become stronger in the dark side. That was, after all, Palpatine's, and now Vitiate's goal. The Sith code is centered around what the Sith teach about using the Force, and how personal power is the greatest virtue one can achieve. That is the heart of Sith teaching, in a nutshell. They take everything, so they can have the greatest power.

Knowing a friend of mine who has an Assassin, he was sour everytime his character did kill someone in a cut scene with lightning.

It would be nice if things were a little bit more mixed up. But really, I think they could just change one thing and I would be happy as can be about the attack animations. Change the animation of thundering blast to a huge torrent of lightning, and give some kind of, "Force blast," animation to another one of the attacks, something like what Exar Kun had. We are supposed to be masters of dark side secrets, we should get freaking Force Blast.

The SI story is largely very good, it is just this, plus two other blotches on it that really annoy me. The absurdity of act three, and your reall apprentice's attitude when you finally get him. I'm sorry, but Xalek seems like he would make an awesome Sith when you first get him, but once you get his affection really built up, he proves just how unworthy of the title that he is. Nadia Grell makes a much better Jedi than Xalek does a Sith. That makes me really sad.