And it will be h3ll for anyone who thinks being geared should take perspiration rather than skill. See ya. Go play one of the 250 000 other mmo's that demand that you play 24 hours a day for 2 months in order to be able to stand around in public areas in spiffy gear pretending that you're good at the game.

Thanks Bioware for setting the bar for other MMORPGs. It's about (damn) time game publishers and developers pulled back the curtains. Other MMO have done similar things, but not to this extent. I was amazed at the candor from the developers about what they wanted to do, what they admitted was "stupid" and needed changing, and why some requests from people were either not possible or more complex than even they anticipated. This wasn't a marketing stunt, nor was it propaganda. It wasn't a canned press release, and it wasn't a scripted convention "reveal." This was a public discussion about the game, with designers and fans, streamed to the internet. They took a pretty big risk, as anyone there could have completely derailed the discussion, and the audience could have reacted badly to any of the aspects revealed in the meeting. This was pure win for the community, with pretty open communication on both sides. If other game developers take note of this, it can only lead to better games, and that can only be good for us gamers. Kudos Bioware.

I made a similar post here that ended with the same results. Lots of players so accustomed to the current MMO grind mechanic that they can't even conceive of something different. It's sad. The responses to this topic are always the same: - insult the OP's ability to PVP, ie attack the messenger - Conclude that the OP doesn't want to work for gear, which is completely missing the point of the argument. - Claim that because the gear isn't that hard to get or doesn't make that much of a difference makes up for the fact that it creates an unbalanced playing field that rewards time spent rather than skill or ability I am also an old fart, and I'm disappointed in how brainwashed most MMO players have become. They accept that completing the level grind should be rewarded with more grinding, and they accept that players with more hours spent should be given an advantage over them. I challenge posters here to try one of 2 things: 1) Run a champ up to 50 as the OP did, and see how much fun it is to play without gear. Then consider what that does to the casual PvP player population at level 50, and how that affects queue times. Also consider how that undermines the legitimacy of the whole solo and team ranking system 2) Play a non-mainstream MMO that deviates from this broken, unimaginative tiered gear mechanic. They are indie games for the most part, like Darkfall, and so lack the graphic and sound polish of the large label games, but they provide a much richer PvP experience. I'm hoping that things change somewhat with 1.2, but I'm not expecting much. Edit - typo

You're right. What was I thinking? I mean, an MMO that I pay a monthly subscription for should definitely entertain me with hours of grinding! God forbid they make the game entertaining WITHOUT the grind at all! The people eating this poo should stop complaining! The other poo tastes way worse! They should be grateful for the poo they have and pay for rather than say asking for something that doesn't taste like poo at all!

ErrantMercenary I bow to your math skills. Your numbers are more accurate and do make more sense than mine. Thanks for the correction. However, I still haven't seen a logical argument for a tiered gear system. The answers I've seen so far can be summarized as: 1) It's faster to get geared in swtor than in other games. This is the "This pile of poo is good because it tastes better than the other piles of poo" argument. Wouldn't you rather eat something else? Yes, it is faster, unless you're comparing to actual competitive PvP games like Guild Wars and MOBAs, where guild and player rankings have some meaning. In those games players enter the battlegrounds on level footing. SWTOR could do this too if it removed PvP gear and extended the bolster system to the 50 bracket. 2) The op wants his gear to be handed to him on a silver platter This is the "You need to grind to be rewarded" argument, otherwise known as "MMORPGS are endless grinds get used to it." Actually, I want to be rewarded for reaching level 50 with fun rather than a second job. Wouldn't you rather be rewarded for reaching level 50 with something fun, rather than more grind? Think outside of that box that the old MMORPGs have put you in please. There are many games out there that do not require grinding at all. Aside from the above online game examples, do you have to grind to have access to all of the pieces on a chessboard? Do you have to compete in X number of matches before you can have 6 players on the ice in hockey? Of course not, because those games are fun in their own right, just like the war zones are fun in their own right. Why do you accept this mechanic in competitive online play? Putting tiered gear in the game only upsets balance and puts some people at an unfair disadvantage 3) You can still beat someone in higher tier gear if you're skilled True, assuming the other player is less skilled. Although, I really would like to see a 1v1 with a skilled player in greens against a less skilled player in BM. The BM will do 10% more damage to you AND take 10% less damage from you, meaning (mathematically) he kills you 20% faster. ie if your standard attacks did 1000 damage, you would do 900 to him while he did 1100 to you. Combine that with the stats giving him around 2-4000 more health and at least 140 more in his primary stat, and the difference is pretty significant. If you are as skilled as you think, wouldn't you much rather have a balanced playing field to demonstrate it, rather than one where people just point at your gear as the reason you won? Didn't you have more fun in the 10-49 war zones, where the bolster system made people more equal? (although obviously not totally equal) And this sort of system undermines the legitimacy of any ranking system swtor develops. This sort of system is exactly why people laugh at people who brag about their WoW ranking. The people at the top will have BM gear. The people at the bottom will have greens and blues, and will not progress until they're in BM gear, regardless as to how good they are. Teams will accept new players based on their gear rather than their skill. Anyway, I guess no one here is actually interested in a level playing field, and is quite comfortable with the accepted norm for MMORPGs of rewarding grinding with more grinding.

Actually, I got ridiculously lucky. In the first week after I hit 50, which was before the change to the bags, I got all 5 set pieces of armour, gloves, an ear piece and a relic. I've since bought my main and offhand. So I'm not whining because I'm undergeared here. I'm whining because this system caters to the people who: 1) Play the most, rather than win the most or 2) exploit the most It effectively punishes those who are good at pvp but can't play 4 hours every day by putting them at a disadvantage. It also punishes those who try to play by the rules or PvP for fun, because it takes them significantly longer to become competitive. As for Centurion gear, yes, I glossed over it, because it's not the point here. Yes, you can get Centurion gear fairly quickly, which does make you MORE competitive. However, you are still at a disadvantage based on time spent farming rather than time spent winning. When you're traveling from a to b on Ilum and you run into that guy who has been bridge farming for weeks and has full BM, you're already at a significant disadvantage based on nothing other than time spent. The availability of Centurion gear is not really relevant to what I'm proposing here. Tiered gear systems like this tilt the playing field. People who support a tiered gear system always sound, to me, like they don't want a level playing field, because they're not secure in their ability to compete.

or it could be 24 if it's a relic, or 36 if it's an ear piece or implant. And I don't use anecdotal evidence to guess at statistics. I took the number of bags people in my guild have collected since they changed it. 154 bags with 8 drops, 3 of which were duplicates. I would do more research, but as I said, my guild has basically given up on PvP. For those saying that this is better than other games, you sound like someone saying that being in prison is fine, because there are worse prisons. Wouldn't you rather not be trapped in this grind to become competitive? There are games, popular ones, that do not have a tiered system at all. League of Legends and Guild Wars don't have tiers, at least not that make players more powerful. Once you've reached max level in LoL, you're on the same terms as anyone else, and while you're getting to level 30, you're competing against others around the same level and record. In GW, you can create a PvP character from day 1 that is the same level as everyone else you're competing against. Then there are the FPS games. Counterstrike has been played for over a decade now, and there are no rewards for winning other than self satisfaction. Lastly, don't you think that having a tiered gear system undermines the competitive ranking system they're planning for 1.2?

Just wondering if people have added this up. 7 commendations per bag. Chance of an item dropping is estimated at 5%, which with the possibility of getting duplicate items, is essentially negligible. Number of commendations needed for armour and relics: 635 (relics x2 = 48, belt and arms = 88, armour pieces x 5 = 335, main hand 123, offhand 41) Number of commendations needed for implants and ear piece: (36x3) 108 total for full champ set: 743 It's not perfect math, but let's remove 5% of that for the random drops. -38= 705. Divide by 7 commendations per bag = 101 bags. Assuming you're not a casual player, and can complete both dailies and both weeklies every week, you're collecting 20 bags per week. Add 5 bags from commendations, and you have 25 bags per week. So, for a fairly committed player, it will take 4 full weeks of doing dailies and weeklies to get a full champion set. I am semi casual, and spend a fair amount of my gaming time doing PvE with my guild, so I probably represent a typical casual player. If I'm lucky I get 10 dailies done and 1 weekly done each week, and maybe 3 commendation bags a week. 16 bags a week means around 6 weeks of slog to get champion gear. Why do I bring this up? I just don't think this is the best way to reward players who have gotten themselves to level 50. When you reach level 50, you should feel powerful, but in this system it will take at least 3 weeks of being slaughtered in 3 hits before you start to feel like you're on par with your opponents. Many people, especially casual players, will and do give up on PvP with this sort of mechanic. As I've mentioned in another post, in my guild of 8 people, most casual players, I am the only one left doing war zones regularly. I wrote a post on this here, describing why I'm confused and frustrated with this system, and why I don't believe tier based systems work, if you're interested. Otherwise, does anyone have ideas for a better system than this?

Wrong. Burst is the only way to take down healers. Spreading damage out means healers become impossible to kill.

If only people read posts before responding. I described force leap issues in huttball. And that knock back is on a 60 second cool down, and is single target. Overload on sorcs is AoE and 20 second cool down. Force push requires some thinking to use, because if you waste it it's gone for a long long time. Overload, on the other hand is available almost every time my force leap is available (force charge is a 15 second cool down). Basically it is always available when you need it, requiring little skill or planning. Your escape mechanism is always available.

I've never understood the tiered gear system so common in MMOs today. Here's what I've seen happen with half of my (albeit small) guild. Guildie loves PvP and does warzones every day. Hits level 50, does a few warzones and gets so frustrated at being effectively useless in the match that he becomes determined to gather armaments and stand on the bridge to get his gear. Two weeks later, he's given up due to frustration with the RNG reward system and the prospect of taking more than a month to get champion gear. Tiered gear does two things, neither of which is productive for MMORPGs. 1) It encourages people to find exploits and loopholes to get their gear faster. I won't mention what these are in swtor, but we all know them. 2) Discourages casual players and others who don't have the time or the interest to run through the endless gearing up hoops, even if they love PvP. No one in my guild is interested in grouping up for level 50 warzones anymore. There are 8 people in my guild, all with level 50 characters, and I'm the only one still doing warzones in the level 50 bracket. Two have let their subscriptions run out.

Oh look, another insulting post offering nothing to the conversation other than name calling. They should just change this this to the "I can't formulate an argument so I insult people instead' forums. In huttball, melee characters need some love. As a juggernaut, I can tell you that if you're on a rampart you're effectively safe from me. I leap to you, you knock me off. I have to run around to get out of the pit, usually either slowed or rooted from the knock back. I can avoid this sometimes with positioning myself so I leap to a point where I won't be thrown into the pit. However, the location of the target on my screen is not always where the character actually is unfortunately, and I find myself landing nowhere near where I intended. Pulls, knockbacks, slows and throws should all fill the resolve bar. This would require more skill from those classes with short cool down knockback abilities, as they'd actually have to use them judiciously rather than every time the cool down is up.

My advice is as follows: 1) Join a laid back guild that isn't trying to get every HM done every night. Pugging it without purples is going to be a major headache in most cases. 2) Do the level 50 flashpoints on normal a few times. You might get a drop or two that improves your gear 3) A few bosses you might want to avoid at first are the bonus boss in Kaon (KR-82 Expulser), Bulwark in directive 7 and Krel Thrak in Battle of Ilum. KR-82 is a bonus boss and can be skipped, and Krel Thrak can be skipped although I wont describe how here. Bulwark is required however, and so you might want to wait on doing D-7 for a while. Just my 2 cents.

I would just add that you should join a decent guild. Where Juggs have problems is when the party has no sense of control or team work and is wildly attacking everything, which is usually the case with a Pick up group. Even with trash, if the party allows you 2 seconds to jump in and hit your AoE taunt, you should be able to hold the mobs long enough for the party to clear them, especially if you hit them with a frozen scream after the taunt wears off. There are a few trash pulls that are hard for juggs though. When the mobs are all spread out can be a challenge. There's one in Black Talon near the end that can lead to a wipe if you don't pay attention when the adds spawn from a side corridor. I agree with the above poster, they could do with a threat tweak and perhaps a rage tweak. Rage is particularly problematic when there are two tanks, say in an operation, and you're not taking regular damage to build rage in a boss fight.

Will there ever be an opportunity made to change your legacy name, perhaps for a fee? For something that has the potential to affect every character you make from that point forward, it would be nice to have the chance to change it at least once.

I was sitting around waiting for a couple of guildies to get their stuff together for a hard mode and I thought it would be nice to have something to do to pass the time. It would be cool to be able to toss a huttball around. The item would be purchasable from a social items vendor or something. When you click it in your inventory, a huttball appears in your hands. You can then throw the ball around to other people. If the ball is thrown and isn't caught, it resets the item in your inventory. After a set period of time, the ball disappears and is reset in your inventory. Obviously, the item would have to be disabled in warzones. There are a few logical things that would need to be worked out, like what happens if I throw a ball to someone who is already holding a ball, or who is in combat. But overall I think it would provide some amusement between raids or warzones.

Ok. So far the poll states pretty clearly that 100% of respondents prefer 4. Anyone care to contradict that finding?

Yo ma is jung? How Jung? Is she cute?

Not my mistake, but the other day I was in a very close and fun game. In the dying seconds, it was 1-1 and a player from the other team tried to throw the ball out of our pit to his team mate, but he threw it directly to one of my team instead. Our player now had the ball and was free and in the clear, and all he had to do was hold the ball for 10 seconds. Our team member then stepped off the platform, dropped into the pile of players on the other team, and was killed. Other team won.

Really? No one has an opinion on this? Or is the voyeuristic draw of the Real Life photos thread just too strong?

I'm writing a blog post about this subject, and was curious what the outcome would be in a poll of this subject. Sadly I don't think I have the ability to create an actual poll thread, so please just answer in a reply. Which model of PvP reward system do you prefer? 1) Tiered gear rewards, such as that used in WoW, WAR, and SWTOR, where playing provides access to more powerful equipment 2) Recognition rewards, such as those used in Guild Wars and the MOBA games like League of Legends. Things like leader boards, titles, skins, and items that provide bragging rights for your accomplishments, but do not provide an advantage in combat 3) Full loot - where you receive everything the person you killed was wearing and carrying, such as that used in Darkfall, Mortal Online and Ultima Online (for all you old schools) 4) No reward is necessary. PvP is rewarding in its own right, much like playing chess or competitive sports is rewarding.

Spoken like someone who doesn't play melee. Melee who start a fight at range? How exactly would they do that? Melee who are attacked at range is 90% loss. And this is how most fights start and end in huttball. Melee who attack at short range are knocked back, usually off a ledge, snared, and then whittled to death as they they are kited around. There is very little fun in playing huttball as a melee class after level 50. Once in a while you get a team that is not 90% sorcs and snipers, and then it can be fun. But the rest of the time, it's constant rain of death and lightning from above.

In all seriousness, force push is a skill I live and die by as a tank, both in PvP and PvE. I do wish it was on a shorter cool down, like the AoE ones the ranged classes have. I often use it to 'round up' mobs that have strayed from the back I am attempting to hold aggro on. He runs to my healer, I intercede to the healer, turn around, knock his butt back, then jump to him and smack him around. In PvP it's vital really. I am a tank, but I can't actually tank that much damage. Jump into a group, knock that pesky assassin or operative away before they do too much damage, then cause as much havok as I can and get as much attention as I can to help take or maintain the cap. It's not so much a defensive tool for a tank as a crowd management tool.

And then there's that you have 16k health, which is the same as my warrior in near full champ gear...

Which is more than an immortal spec warrior can do when launching both of his heavy, long cool down attacks. Ravage, 50 seconds cd, is about 2000 if it hits for all 3 strikes, and crushing blow, 15 second cooldown if you have 5 stacks of armour reduction is about 1200. And yes, it's ONLY 1 tick in the fire, but of course that gives you the ability to sprint through fire and acid, which no one else can do. The problem is not that it's too high. It's that in the time it takes someone to remove it, you've healed all the previous damage you took AND you can cast it again on yourself shortly. Don't even get me started on the fact that you can spec it to blind everyone around you...