But that is completely subjective. "Better" isn't something you can quantify. And it also doesn't automatically mean that the business or services with fewer customers is "better" - as a matter of fact as is often the case, it is not. For WoW, I think the consumers got it right this time. The best product does indeed have the most customers. Few would debate that WoW is mechanically superior in gameplay, systems and otherwise...

And every other MMO that can/does measure internationally in the far east would do/is doing the same thing! So the numbers are all correct and relative to industry reporting. i.e. Blizzard dominance. Also, the average HHI in China, in 2010 at first glance appears to be about $10,000US. In the US, the average HHI was about $84,000US. So their salaries are about 8 times less than ours, and their game payments are about 6 times less than hours. Seems to all line up. And yes, I play WoW and have had an active subscription since day 1 on November 23, 2004.

There aren't even 700 hours in a month, just FYI. The average rate for paying is indeed cheaper... but some people have this impression of only "pennies" per month for Chinese players who have no subs, when in reality they're paying much close to US subscription rates even though they aren't subscribers.

You have no clue, those aren't the numbers, and that's not how it works at all.

Thank you. Whereas a subscriber works out to just 2 cents US per hour. While most players, even in China, don't play 24 hours a day... you could make the assumption of an 8 hour play day. If you add that up... (8*.07) * 30 = $16.80 cents US per month. So, yeah. Everyone else read this?

No, it usually doesn't. But in WoW's case it definitely does. Consumers got that one right. An example of failure would be Windows. There couldn't be a larger piece of rubbish OS out there, but the majority of consumers use it. They got that one wrong.

I guess we're debating because you're consistently wrong. You realize that if Chinese players play as much as a monthly subscription would allow (when obviously they play much less, as we all do) they actually pay MORE per month than subscribers? You didin't realize that, did you? And the argument is not about how much money is made... don't move the goal posts. It's squarely about how many PLAYERS there are... the fact is those are numbers TOR will never see.

Except in WoW's case, the game is great. Game developers around the world - including those at BioWare - will tell you so. It's artistically sound, masterfully crafted, has mechanics that are second to none and a level of polish that is envied across the industry. For players, it's all subjective. There is someone out there, maybe even reading this very thread, who is playing WoW while cranking Justin Beiber and chomping on a McDonald's cheeseburger. And to them - there couldn't be anything better.

They PAY TO PLAY THE GAME. Just like everyone else. If you understand this, what are we debating?

No it's not a fact, and it's not common knowledge. Chinese players DO IN FACT PAY TO PLAY. I suggest you provide a link - from Blizzard no less - that details how Chinese players play WoW for free.

Oh, you mean "fun and variety". And of course Chinese users pay to play... stop fabricating things.

Smacks of desperation. The FACT is, there are still over 10 million PAYING customers. It could lose 8 million more and still be larger than TOR (not to mention every other MMO) in terms of subscribers. You would do well for yourself to not try and diminish WoW with falsifications. It's a great game and you in fact have it to thank that TOR even exists.

Because it's better and more fun.

The voice acting for every quest in TOR was very much over-done. For the "class quests" it makes sense, but it makes for significant tedium when that's only 20% of what you're doing, the rest is killing 10 rats or clicking 10 things, and you need a 4 minute conversation to find out what you have to do - with no other story attached to it.

I would tend to agree. Blizzard demonstrates the story by action, using voice acting and very rarely true cut scenes. And as you said, the way the stories are told in TOR, it leaves little to the imagination. (Then again, I feel this way about all stories in video games that are literally "told" to me.)

But you're comparing different styles of gameplay entirely. Some people prefer the calculated, strategic approach to building their character and maximizing their output to give them the best chance. Twitch gamers usually can't hack it. And vice versa... I suck at FPS PvP.

It's a social structure... you have to deal with social pressures and judgements just as in any other. That's the beauty of social games...

Do you play WoW? If not, how do you know the population of EVERY single server? If so, well you seem to be quite hypocritical. Why would you still be playing WoW when TOR is perfect? I have news for you (and this won't surprise you, because you were just using a defensive posture of fabrication) - WoW's server are far from dead. I play on a backwater server that was never in any of the progression races, it's not a PvP server.... it's literally bustling with people in all of the major Alliance cities. People are still doing dailies, and still running dungeons and raids.

That is a silly, silly statement. They aren't niche or unpolished any more that TOR is today. The ratio of subscribers is the same because the MARKET IS BIGGER. Ok, let's take your tact for a minute... WoW came out with a polished game and trounced the competition because "they weren't polished." Are you saying TOR did the same thing to WoW? This is the whole point about "Blizzard gets it". Despite watching WoW evolve for 7 years, new games including TOR STILL DO NOT come out anywhere as closed to polished as WoW. That, my friend, is perplexing, and why you see all the complaining.

GW2 has marked, distinct differences - that they're willing to talk about, unlike BioWare was - that will either make the game crash and burn or have wild success.

I've been following your argument the last page or so, and I have to say it's ridiculous. There were concurrently running successful MMOs before WoW launched (EQ, AC, EvE, SWG, DAoC) and more... all with at least 100k+ subscribers). And since WoW, several MMOs that have come out have crashed and burned (Tabula Rasa, AoC, Vanguard, Warhammer) and there have been some that have had moderate success like the earlier games - LoTRO, DDO, DC, and more...) The bottom line is the playing field is has it's ALWAYS been. The big difference is that WoW was such a masterfully crafted game it defined the genre as most people know (hence, the "standards" everyone talks about) and more importantly WoW actually EXPANDED the genre and brought more people into the idea of playing and subscribing to an MMO. So the market is larger now... but the ratio of "successful" games? THe same as it always was. Due to the quality of WoW, in every way, it would stomp out current competition if it came out today - because no one would be tired of it, it would be fresh and be mechanically better in every single way. Not to mention, all of these other games have copied WoW in one way or another and couldn't even use that to their advantage after they had the benefit of watching WoW for years. The only games that will compete with WoW for the "next-gen" are ones that break the mold and up the quality... one is a risk most aren't willing to take and the other most can't deliver. As has been proven by LoTRO, and now TOR, having a big name IP doesn't mean squat when it comes to retaining subscribers. The game has to be good. GW2 has the next best shot. And of course Titan will be breaking the mold completely... but success isn't guaranteed. But at least they're trying.

I agree, especially on the story part... I don't require being the hero of the galaxy to have fun. It's so spoon-fed in this game and especially BW's single player games, it really panders to the lowest-common-denomenator. The raid or die thing, it really feels to me like that wasn't the original intent for end game... but we'll never know.

There seems to be a miscomprehension here... it's not that we want TOR to become like WoW. But there are features TOR is missing which WoW standardized, and are now no-brainers to include in a AAA MMO. That's what, at least I mean, when I say "more like WoW" For example... GW2 is nothing like WoW. But it has all of the "features" you expect to make online gameplay with friends more fun and manageable... even encouraged.

Lol, I have some experience in the area...

"Cheats" cannot be used in MMORPGs like they can in other online games like FPS, at least without the developers noticing very quickly... no need to worry.