'End' game silliness.

[Rikalonius]

It seems to be the same with most MMOs doesn't it.

 

Wasn't like this with Everquest 1. Took people so long to reach the level cap they had time to push out loads of expanded content. Games are way too easy, but that's how people want them these days... it's a diluted genre.

 

At the EQ1 stage MMOs were very much a niche genre. I frankly got sick and tired of leveling. I don't want to get into the infinite debate about long not equaling challenging, but that's how I felt. There has to be a balance. I'm not saying SWTOR has achieved it, but EQ1 didn't either. SWG had some good concepts if it hadn't been a bug laden laggy mess. That still needed some "end game" for those who enjoy that sort of thing, but like I said in a previous post, what alternatives do you have. Collection quests can be just as monotonous as raiding, and usually much less rewarding.

 

The genre is in adolescence, and it doesn't know yet what it wants to be. The old hard cores who have all the time in the world to play these game, and the new casuals, who don't, but represent a much larger money pool are vying for developer attention. Unfortunately these games cost a lot of money to produce, so guess who is going to win that fight.

[Enako]

I've been having tons of fun leveling. The most fun I've ever had leveling.

 

yes, i did too. therefore i am not saying i am 'leveling' in this game - but 'playing'. this is the first mmo in which i had had made distinction.

 

and i want it to be that way. i dont want my gameplay separated in between something called 'leveling' and a neverending repetitive 'endgame'.

 

what i want is, the star wars story take me from adventure to adventure smoothly as time goes by and i progress. everything else is peripheral, and supplementary.

[twistedtime]

yes, i did too. therefore i am not saying i am 'leveling' in this game - but 'playing'. this is the first mmo in which i had had made distinction.

 

and i want it to be that way. i dont want my gameplay separated in between something called 'leveling' and a neverending repetitive 'endgame'.

 

what i want is, the star wars story take me from adventure to adventure smoothly as time goes by and i progress. everything else is peripheral, and supplementary.

 

Ugh, your still not seeing it.

 

neverending, work from there.

[Enako]

The genre is in adolescence, and it doesn't know yet what it wants to be. The old hard cores who have all the time in the world to play these game, and the new casuals, who don't, but represent a much larger money pool are vying for developer attention. Unfortunately these games cost a lot of money to produce, so guess who is going to win that fight.

 

'fortunately' you should have said.

 

note how wii brought back 'simple, engaging fun' into console gameplay. before wii, consoles were unanimously aaa titles produced as timesinks by megacorporations. wii has kicked everyone in the industry in their balls.

 

same needs to happen in pc industry. and it will. the question is, who will do it first.

 

granted, swtor had had made a major move with this immediately entertaining immersive interactive storytelling thing. it is a revolution, but not as abrupt and ball-kicking like what wii has done. im sure it will change mmos forever though.

[twistedtime]

'fortunately' you should have said.

 

note how wii brought back 'simple, engaging fun' into console gameplay. before wii, consoles were unanimously aaa titles produced as timesinks by megacorporations. wii has kicked everyone in the industry in their balls.

 

same needs to happen in pc industry. and it will. the question is, who will do it first.

 

granted, swtor had had made a major move with this immediately entertaining immersive interactive storytelling thing. it is a revolution, but not as abrupt and ball-kicking like what wii has done. im sure it will change mmos forever though.

 

Ugh x2. Your understanding of both these topics is....Ugh

[Enako]

Ugh x2. Your understanding of both these topics is....Ugh

 

and your intelligible participation/contribution to the thread is zero. all you have told so far is your unwillingness to talk/discuss, and how others 'dont understand'.

 

there is nothing to reply to.

[twistedtime]

and your intelligible participation/contribution to the thread is zero. all you have told so far is your unwillingness to talk/discuss, and how others 'dont understand'.

 

there is nothing to reply to.

 

ugh. The thing is im going to just show u stuff and its going to go nowhere. its going to be very ugh.

[Enako]

ugh. The thing is im going to just show u stuff and its going to go nowhere. its going to be very ugh.

 

ok then what about not replying to the thread, since you are, ugh, not willing to, ugh, talk ?

[twistedtime]

ok then what about not replying to the thread, since you are, ugh, not willing to, ugh, talk ?

 

"and i want it to be that way. i dont want my gameplay separated in between something called 'leveling' and a neverending repetitive 'endgame'."

 

You want never ending leveling. There are so many elements within mmos aside from the ones you've pointed out that would cause the dreaded repetition and would have to be rebalanced apparently every month if new content would come out that the game could never sustain itself.

 

Your goals are completely unrealisitic from a development point of view and what you have in essence done is say "i hate endgames in wow clones, however i cannot realisitically think of a sufficent supplement for them."

 

Another underlining issue is the alienation of the social aspect of these types of mmo's. Your basically trying to make a game suited toward your tastes that cannot happen

 

ugh

[Kaskava]

I see a lot of people blabbering about 'endgame'. and i recently noticed that it was a silly, silly concept. ENDgame - consider :

 

the word itself even signifies end of something - ENDgame. end of a game. basically, what it means is you play through all the game, and at the end, you reach a point.

 

Yeah, and when you beat all of something, that's the end. You then have to go over from a certain point and resume from there. So, no, it's not a silly concept. I can reach the end of any YouTube video. Does that mean that it's over forever? No, it doesn't. In the same way, I can reach the end of any game, but that doesn't mean that the game suddenly shuts down forever.

 

BUT, for some reason, this 'end'game is supposed to last longer than THE game itself - DESPITE that the entire game is traversed and completed.

 

Because most people will spend more time at the max level then they will leveling. Want to know why? Because leveling for that particular toon does come to an absolute end. It might be nice to one day see an MMO that allows you to go back and redo certain quests, but that day may never come.

 

Also consider, not everyone likes learning to play 8 different toons. I finished leveling my Sith Juggernaut last week, I have no real desire to go back and level anything else. Hell, I kept trying to use Rune Strike when I was playing my Jugg, and that was at level 48.

 

at this point someone would come up and say that there is 'content' in endgame. and when you query what that content is, it ends up being 20-40 repetitions of some set up dungeons over and over. and, during this ordeal, the statistics on a player's overall gear progresses with 1-5% per 1-1.5 weeks rate.

 

Not really sure where you're getting the numbers from, but whatever. Armchair analyst is armchair analyst. But, based on much of the rest of your post, you very much want the same thing, just in a different section of the game.

 

and this is called 'endgame'. and, players of a certain segment want everything, including crafting, revolve around this particular 'endgame'.

 

Yeah, pretty much. Without it, your toon would hit 50, then do nothing. Seems like a waste to me.

 

now, take a moment and think totally objectively, with a perspective from outside gaming ;

 

Why, exactly, would I look at this from outside gaming? It's a hobby. I hobby I happen to be some-what competitive enough in. A hobby I would like to turn into a job in the near future. I don't care if people who aren't gamers can't understand what I do in the game, or why I do it.

 

Why, you ask? Two reasons: First, why should anyone's opinions of my hobbies have any impact on me? It's not like I'm hurting anyone else, though I do need to drop some poundage. Two, my friends and family (ya know, the people's opinions who I give some modicum of concern about), don't judge me for my hobbies. Outside of making the occasional joke.

 

from wherever you look at it, this thing is just repeating the SAME thing over and over, 20-30 times, a time which spans MORE time than you the game content you had seen to get there. and, you see the SAME thing there over and over.

 

Yeah, it does. Again, your character, unless you delete it, will spend more time at max level then not.

 

the only thing that is hooking these people to this, is the gear drops and the gear progression. a bold claim, but true -

 

Wrong. Do you know how many times I did Karazhan? I lost count, but it was a lot. I did it more times not needing anything out of there, then I did actually wanting something. Off-set pieces, and fun stuff not withstanding. Do you know why I kept going back? Because I enjoyed it. Because I liked the fights. Because I liked trying to find new ways around things. Because I enjoyed *********** around with my guild.

 

Do you know how many times I did ICC? Too damn many. A lot of it sucked, I admit. Like Kara, however, there came a time when I was doing it simply because I could. Yes, there are some memorable loot drops, like when I got the first blood off of Festergut. And Deathbringer's Will. There are, however, far fewer of those memories, then there are of just being there.

 

For example: Having one of our guildies throw himself off of the edge before Lootship as a sacrifice to the lag boss. The first time we killed the Lich King, then laughed because the drops were useless. One time one of our guildies DC'd in the middle of the defile, and it covered the entire platform. The night were I accidentely started the Lootship fight, with just me and another tank on it. Then, in the same night, turning off the buff.

 

Then there was the first time I did the Festergut fight as a tank. My budget-*** got one-shot. That was funny.

 

So, again, gear is not the sole factor.

 

notice ; nomatter who you are, doing the SAME thing 20 times would get you bored the hell out of you regarding content - there is no 'content' when you do the same raid 14th time, and see the same events take place for the 14th time.

 

See above.

 

so it has to be gear drops and statistics progression fixation.

 

No, it most certainly does not.

 

no - it cant be 'doing things in a group' either - for there are endless opportunities for doing things in groups prior to this 'endgame' these people talk about. but, they dont do these. when they do their grouping is in 'endgame', and it stays there. everything else is peripheral in the game.

 

There are a lot of opportunities, I agree. Does that mean there shouldn't be as many, if not more, at endgame? No, it doesn't. Again, your character will spend more time at 50, then at level 49. Unless you delete him.

 

repetition kills fun.. noone can claim otherwise. even the people who like to repeat endgame raids for 30 times - because the SAME people talk about how things got boring, even the voice acting got boring when they were doing the same quests in lower levels even in this game. so, basically, they too dont like repetition.

 

It can, but it all depends on what you're doing, and how you're doing it. You can do the same essential act 40 times, but keep it at least somewhat interesting by just tweaking this or that.

 

there are drops with high/low percent changes while leveling/questing too. it is possible to group while leveling/questing too. so then, why are these people getting bored with these ?

 

Because that blue I picked up 10 minutes ago, might have just gotten replaced by the green quest reward. Because we're tired of spending twelve hours on Voss, with no real change. Because training sucks. There are all sorts of reasons.

 

the difference is in being maxed out or not.

 

That's certainly one factor, but not the only factor.

 

it follows another fixation in the hardcore grindscene - 'gear is easy to get' -> technically what is desired is, gear/drops should not be easy to get, the person who is pursuing that grind philosophy should spend effort, require gear that is better than other people's and be 'ahead of them in progress'. actually, this is nothing but a feeling of superiority over one's peers through possessions one identifies with - gear and titles in this case, instead of a house and a car.

 

Grats, you can understand the idea of competition! But, once more, you're just focusing on one aspect of something that happens to annoy you, and thinking that that is the only thing that drives people and is, therefore, bad.

 

i respect such needs and such inclinations.

 

Not based on anything you've said, you don't.

 

however, they are not a harmonious existence with others ; if there isnt a hardcoded, all encompassing hierarchical progress scheme, it fails - and if there is, it makes everyone obliged to itself - it is not fun, or it is not all encompassingly democratic/coexisting.

 

Democracy is actually really annoying. More so in video games. It sounds to me like you want a sandbox game, akin to SWG 2.0. I happen to have several guildies who played SWG from beta until WoW's launch. One of them told about this annoying grind he went through to get mats to make a gun to make himself more un-killable then he already was.

 

Another will go on a tirade whenever the idea of player owned cities comes up, and his particular gripe with traveling across these massive planets, coming across these cities, and finding nothing.

 

I think a lot of people like the hard-coded progression scheme, as it gives them a clear, concise goal.

 

 

let me tell you what i think should be - a game should be 'game' at any given point in its playthrough.

 

Fun fact: it is.

 

there can not be any kind of separations regarding 'endgame' or 'leveling'.

 

World of Levelquest? Yeah, sounds real fun.

 

these are just the travesties everquest and wow afflicted mmo gaming with.

 

WoW also introduced the idea of the accessible, self-contained, level progression system. Where you would go talk to this guy, who was clearly marked, pick up the quest, do the objectives, and turn it it. You would then get a nice little sound effect and, usually, some kind of reward.

 

Much improved over EverQuest's model of having to look for key-words when talking to an NPC, then type them back in the form of a question.

 

no son of god would sit and play the same end part of a single player game, or multiplayer capable single player game with his/her friends for 20 times. and noone expects them to.

 

That really depends, actually. Ever play MineCraft? You're doing the same thing: building and creating. A lot of people play it for hours on end.

 

a game should be fun and entertaining at any given point, and there should not be an 'endgame' that comes to being by subjecting people to repetitive instance/raid runs for progressing 3 to 5% performance on their gear statistics, in groups of 20.

 

But there should be an endless level grind. Makes sense...if you don't think about it. The problem is when you have one raid, and three dungeons introduced, and that's it for six months. Looking at you, ICC. That's when people really start to get pissy.

 

 

 

at most, the period should be so arranged that, after 3-4 runs of the 'endgame' instances/raids, the game should be complete at that point, and a new expansion should have already been out.

 

Which faces you with the dilemma, who do you work off of? The guys like Paragon, who burn through stuff really quickly, and dedicate upwards of 12 hours in one sitting to one boss? Or, do you go off the the guys like my guild, who usually don't put in more then four hours a night, and a max of eight per week for actual progression.

 

and all the players should progress to the new storyline and new adventure in front of them, instead of repeating the same stuff 20-30 times over and over, hooked only by low percent chance item drops.

 

A new expac after every raid? No thanks. Sounds like pay-to-win-nickel-and-dime-me-to-death-please. Not a fan. Less so in a Pay-to-play game.

[ArkhamNative]

LOL yes, the irony is that "Endgame" is endless, and a game without endgame ends.

 

Endgame is usually a highly social activity, and in that, it is its own reward. There's also a certain human nature that enjoys respect from peers and being part of something larger than oneself. Even though we're talking about mashing keys and mouse-clicking imaginary foes, the experience itself is real.

[twistedtime]

FML i could have just waited for kas.

 

sigh and major UGH

[DarthVeoilion]

maybe if you paced your self. instead of trying to reach "end-game" so fast you would enjoy the factors of the games elements and wouldn't complain. but they again you properly would find something. but if your so UN-happy with the end-game why don't you try making your own mmorpg. because frankly the time and money and skill they spent into making this is evidently greater then your puppy tears. and frankly I am enjoying "taken my time" in the game meeting players pvp. trading and everything and not rushing to the end so it makes my game more realistic in the sense that fits my server "role-play pvp"

 

i spend more time role-playing. pvp. enjoying the games worlds and taken my time with everything thing that I'm not lvl 50 yet another 17 levels to go. but all in all

 

stop going on about how you reached end-game so soon and got nothing to do its your fault you didn't pace your self and taken in the wide variety that the game has to offer.

[Enako]

"and i want it to be that way. i dont want my gameplay separated in between something called 'leveling' and a neverending repetitive 'endgame'."

 

You want never ending leveling. There are so many elements within mmos aside from the ones you've pointed out that would cause the dreaded repetition and would have to be rebalanced apparently every month if new content would come out that the game could never sustain itself.

 

Your goals are completely unrealisitic from a development point of view and what you have in essence done is say "i hate endgames in wow clones, however i cannot realisitically think of a sufficent supplement for them."

 

and in the end, you came up as the one who understood nothing about the mechanics of this entire mmo business then eh ....

 

all mmos are neverending leveling/progression. this is true for all games that do not present a sandbox content. for wow, for others. even kotor 1, was a game of progression/leveling.

 

you progress, you evolve, you go through the story. and what happens ? a new story comes in the expansion, and you continue from there.

 

this is the basic story of such games.

 

it is what happens at any rate. . there is no evading that.

 

the difference in between games is that, some of them create 'endgame' timesinks to exploit the progression desires of some small segment - like wow. there is a huge neverending repetition of the SAME stuff in such games.

 

and in some others, new content comes at an amiable rate - like lotro.

 

dont talk about what is realistic and what is unrealistic, if you dont know enough about mmo industry or played other games long enough. as you can see, there are games that pump out content at very reasonable speeds, and do not create exploitative timesinks in between their major story progression. (expansions/books).

 

Another underlining issue is the alienation of the social aspect of these types of mmo's. Your basically trying to make a game suited toward your tastes that cannot happen

 

ugh

 

social != 20 people having to group for repetitively grinding the same instances for 0.1% chance drops for months.

[Tirpe]

There is no mmo in the world that can produce "content" faster than we players can consume it.

 

The only way to make the content last longer "in the endgame" is to craft content in a way that encourages repetition. There has to be goals for the player to aim for. If the player lacks those goals he or she will probably lose interest in playing the game and unsubscribe.

[twistedtime]

and in the end, you came up as the one who understood nothing about the mechanics of this entire mmo business then eh ....

 

all mmos are neverending leveling/progression. this is true for all games that do not present a sandbox content. for wow, for others. even kotor 1, was a game of progression/leveling.

 

See here's the difference, they have raiding encompassing the endgame. What do you propose? Constant leveling, it's not a solution just an alternative, and you can't delude yourself into thinking this is any better than raiding. Who are you catering with this? hardcore or casual, what happens to the person who levels in two days? what does that person do?

 

you progress, you evolve, you go through the story. and what happens ? a new story comes in the expansion, and you continue from there.

 

this is the basic story of such games.

 

it is what happens at any rate. . there is no evading that.

 

the difference in between games is that, some of them create 'endgame' timesinks to exploit the progression desires of some small segment - like wow. there is a huge neverending repetition of the SAME stuff in such games.

 

and in some others, new content comes at an amiable rate - like lotro.

 

dont talk about what is realistic and what is unrealistic, if you dont know enough about mmo industry or played other games long enough. as you can see, there are games that pump out content at very reasonable speeds, and do not create exploitative timesinks in between their major story progression. (expansions/books).

 

You don't understand, players get through content faster than devs can make it, your trying to elimnate the timesinks that allow for the gaps between new content which will never come at a pace to satisifiy your demands. And I promise that Lotro (with its raids and world instances) and every other wow mmo clone f2p or not has time sinks just as your theory of constant leveling will become one. Only your version lacks any semblance of balance or realism.

 

 

 

social != 20 people having to group for repetitively grinding the same instances for 0.1% chance drops for months.

 

ugh and stuff

 

20 people having to group for repetitively grinding the same instances for 0.1% chance drops for months.

 

Apparently you really cannot grasp the social element behind mmo's. You dont become as good of friends with a stranger helping you out during 1 lvling mission then 19 other people showing up night after night progressing towards a goal for the benefit of not only themselves but their counterparts.

Edited January 1, 2012 by twistedtime

[Kurtayn]

There's just one problem...if people don't have anything to do once they hit max level, they will stop playing the game. That means that there needs to be such things as raids to keep people occupied. Ideally, a new raid would be released every couple months, or have a progression to it, like Everquest did in Planes of Power. This keeps people engaged in the game and busy.

 

For an MMO, endgame is a must. Otherwise, it's a single player game with coop and chat boxes.

[twistedtime]

There's just one problem...if people don't have anything to do once they hit max level, they will stop playing the game. That means that there needs to be such things as raids to keep people occupied. Ideally, a new raid would be released every couple months, or have a progression to it, like Everquest did in Planes of Power. This keeps people engaged in the game and busy.

 

For an MMO, endgame is a must. Otherwise, it's a single player game with coop and chat boxes.

 

Op cannot comprehend this nor post a proper alternative that is realisitic.

[Shadysketchy]

and in the end, you came up as the one who understood nothing about the mechanics of this entire mmo business then eh ....

 

all mmos are neverending leveling/progression. this is true for all games that do not present a sandbox content. for wow, for others. even kotor 1, was a game of progression/leveling.

 

you progress, you evolve, you go through the story. and what happens ? a new story comes in the expansion, and you continue from there.

 

this is the basic story of such games.

 

it is what happens at any rate. . there is no evading that.

 

the difference in between games is that, some of them create 'endgame' timesinks to exploit the progression desires of some small segment - like wow. there is a huge neverending repetition of the SAME stuff in such games.

 

and in some others, new content comes at an amiable rate - like lotro.

 

dont talk about what is realistic and what is unrealistic, if you dont know enough about mmo industry or played other games long enough. as you can see, there are games that pump out content at very reasonable speeds, and do not create exploitative timesinks in between their major story progression. (expansions/books).

 

 

 

social != 20 people having to group for repetitively grinding the same instances for 0.1% chance drops for months.

 

Your entire argument is based off of the false mentality that a profitable amount of subscribers are willing to pay monthly for "story"

 

Most people are only going to pay a subscription, if there is a form of endgame content like Raiding, or Competitive PvP, that justifies the monthly cost; as opposed to a single player story

[twistedtime]

Your entire argument is based off of the false mentality that a profitable amount of subscribers are willing to pay monthly for "story"

 

Most people are only going to pay a subscription, if there is a form of endgame content like Raiding, or Competitive PvP, that justifies the monthly cost; as opposed to a single player story

 

LOL i said help him...not....well never mind

[Enako]

Yeah, and when you beat all of something, that's the end. You then have to go over from a certain point and resume from there. So, no, it's not a silly concept. I can reach the end of any YouTube video. Does that mean that it's over forever? No, it doesn't. In the same way, I can reach the end of any game, but that doesn't mean that the game suddenly shuts down forever.

 

Because most people will spend more time at the max level then they will leveling. Want to know why? Because leveling for that particular toon does come to an absolute end. It might be nice to one day see an MMO that allows you to go back and redo certain quests, but that day may never come.

 

there is a problem when people participate in discussions without employing the capability of reading comprehension.

 

how did you miss the fact that i have stated that progression should come through progression of story through expansions at an even pace - not making people repeat the same worn-out dungeon for 30 times ?

 

Also consider, not everyone likes learning to play 8 different toons. I finished leveling my Sith Juggernaut last week, I have no real desire to go back and level anything else. Hell, I kept trying to use Rune Strike when I was playing my Jugg, and that was at level 48.

 

surely - not everyone likes to do anything particular. but, also not everyone has to oblige with the small majority that rushes to achievements - like you.

 

excuse me but its your problem that you rushed to level 48. you may argue you are not rushing, but that's your perspective. apparently game was designed properly for a progression speed of the majority of gamers, and not you.

 

its not anyone else's problem that you rush through things and then get bored. society just cant keep you satisfied, wherever you go.

 

this was also stated in my original post. however apparently reading comprehension lacked there again. or you just dont see yourself falling in that group.

 

Not really sure where you're getting the numbers from, but whatever. Armchair analyst is armchair analyst. But, based on much of the rest of your post, you very much want the same thing, just in a different section of the game.

 

anyone who did raiding in wow would easily tell you the percentages and the gear progression rate. and these are lucky numbers if you end up in good guilds too - some were not that lucky.

 

if someone is not aware of concepts like spreadsheets, places like elitistjerks and what talk goes on there, s/he should not talk about progression/mmo/endgames in grand fashion.

 

Yeah, pretty much. Without it, your toon would hit 50, then do nothing. Seems like a waste to me.

 

yes - instead 95% of the players should be obliged and entire resources be spent for some 5% selfish minority who were hardcore rushers/progressers enough to be able to see molten core in vanilla wow. even when wow was at its most hardcore point actually.

 

this is actual blizzard statistic. your segment is basically 5%, and you want everyone else to be b**ches to you.

 

we dont want that.

 

Why, exactly, would I look at this from outside gaming? It's a hobby. I hobby I happen to be some-what competitive enough in.

 

because your 5% segment wants everyone else to be subjected to the same gameplay. the rest, does not want that. you also demand the resources of entire development to be spent satisfying you.

 

your hobby does not supersede others'.

 

Yeah, it does. Again, your character, unless you delete it, will spend more time at max level then not.

 

until expansion comes. and only true in games like everquest/wow which are timesinks for exploiting the progressive desires of some hardcore minority. so that they can be kept subscribed with a carrot that slowly drops.

 

Wrong. Do you know how many times I did Karazhan? I lost count, but it was a lot. I did it more times not needing anything out of there, then I did actually wanting something. Off-set pieces, and fun stuff not withstanding. Do you know why I kept going back? Because I enjoyed it. Because I liked the fights. Because I liked trying to find new ways around things. Because I enjoyed *********** around with my guild. ...................(and some other stuff in same direction)

 

congrats - you are a minority even among the minority that is the hardcore progressives. your kind is rare to chance against. and you are lucky. most of the hardcore raiding guilds quit when their progression was complete in the servers i played in wow. they went to other games.

 

so basically you are among the rare small percentage out of the 5% that has seen wow endgame raids. exceptions dont make a rule.

 

and excuse me if we refuse to have entire game designed around your ridiculously small population numbers.

 

For example: Having one of our guildies throw himself off of the edge before Lootship as a sacrifice to the lag boss. The first time we killed the Lich King, then laughed because the drops were useless.

 

..........

 

The night were I accidentely started the Lootship fight, with just me and another tank on it. Then, in the same night, turning off the buff.

 

wooooooooooow. seems like a lot of fun !! ................ ehhh ....

 

There are a lot of opportunities, I agree. Does that mean there shouldn't be as many, if not more, at endgame? No, it doesn't. Again, your character will spend more time at 50, then at level 49. Unless you delete him.

 

no it wouldnt.

 

naturally in any game, reaching end of a game, would end the game. also your character. in games that continue the story with expansions, you character gets carried to the next expansion.

 

only in everquest/wow timesinks, your character spends more time in 85 than level 84. and that is simply because a huge repetitive timesink is introduced into the game at that end point.. its not that there is 'much more to do' at that point - you do the same thing over and over and over.

 

normally the story should continue into new storyline and environments with a new book/expansion.

 

It can, but it all depends on what you're doing, and how you're doing it. You can do the same essential act 40 times, but keep it at least somewhat interesting by just tweaking this or that.

 

'somewhat interesting' does not suffice as 'entertainment'. a lot of things are somewhat interesting in life. yet, you rarely do any of them 40 times.

 

Because that blue I picked up 10 minutes ago, might have just gotten replaced by the green quest reward. Because we're tired of spending twelve hours on Voss, with no real change. Because training sucks. There are all sorts of reasons.

 

so basically you just want to reach the max point. so, you are an achiever - not a player. you want to achieve the highest point you can come to, and stay there. and that's your poison.

 

that's also our poison - it poisons games.

 

 

That's certainly one factor, but not the only factor.

 

considering what you said above, it seems to be THE factor. for, if it was chance of dropping of great stuff, purples dropping randomly while you were questing would give you the same satisfaction. if it was progression, progressing while leveling is much more noticeable and engaging than seeing your progression in endgame spreadsheet statistics.

 

basically you are playing to max yourself out and achieve.

 

Not based on anything you've said, you don't.

 

respect does not mean that i should see them as valid and i should oblige by them.

 

i respect these inclinations. but, these inclinations dont respect me. see, here you are, just continuing the trend of demanding that games should be entire progressive timesinks with huge repetitions in the end so you can feel maxed out.

 

Democracy is actually really annoying. More so in video games. It sounds to me like you want a sandbox game, akin to SWG 2.0. I happen to have several guildies who played SWG from beta until WoW's launch. One of them told about this annoying grind he went through to get mats to make a gun to make himself more un-killable then he already was.

 

yes. democracy is actually really annoying - especially when it allows people like your guildie, who is playing a game for achieving 'being unkillable', and is not satisfied because he is not able to achieve being more unkillable through this or that.

 

basically he was not playing the game for star wars, or environment, or social amenities, or creativity. he was playing it for maxing out and topping out.

 

 

I think a lot of people like the hard-coded progression scheme, as it gives them a clear, concise goal.

 

and that is the sentence that summarizes the entire problem : you people play games for hardcore progression. and you want everyone else to fit in your preferred progression scheme, or else.

 

see, your gameplay, does not leave room for others' gameplay. its either/or. if anyone is given any freedom/liberty, your illusion of having maxed out through grinding effort in endgame, will shatter.

 

if otherwise, people will be subjected to a long unrewarding grind.

 

That really depends, actually. Ever play MineCraft? You're doing the same thing: building and creating. A lot of people play it for hours on end.

 

quite. and it is the new phenomenon in gaming.

 

and it is just another pointer how mmos do not need to be leveling maxed-out repetitive grindfests like wow or everquest.

 

But there should be an endless level grind. Makes sense...if you don't think about it. The problem is when you have one raid, and three dungeons introduced, and that's it for six months. Looking at you, ICC. That's when people really start to get pissy.

 

how many people other than hardcore progressives who rushed through, or 'not rushed through' and got to 50 are pissy as of this point in swtor ?

 

noone. millions playing the game and enjoying the story and its progression.

 

progression is possible without repetitive endgame dungeons.

 

Which faces you with the dilemma, who do you work off of? The guys like Paragon, who burn through stuff really quickly, and dedicate upwards of 12 hours in one sitting to one boss? Or, do you go off the the guys like my guild, who usually don't put in more then four hours a night, and a max of eight per week for actual progression.

 

you work the stuff off of 95% majority people - people who enjoy progression of a story at a normal pace, rather than maxing out and grinding in the endgame dungeons for months.

 

because, the latter group, is a very small minority despite the apparent segmentations within themselves - there may be people grinding 12 hours in one boss, there may be people who meet 2 weeknights for 4 hours each to make 2 raids a week. (which group i was also raiding in by the way).

 

neither group can come close to the 95% 'casual' majority which does not like grinding/repetition.

 

therefore, arrangement of 'endgame' instances/content to be 4-5 times runs for this group, would prosper a game.

 

A new expac after every raid? No thanks. Sounds like pay-to-win-nickel-and-dime-me-to-death-please. Not a fan. Less so in a Pay-to-play game.

 

surely. repeating the same instance 40 times is MUCH better.

[twistedtime]

"only in everquest/wow timesinks, your character spends more time in 85 than level 84. and that is simply because a huge repetitive timesink is introduced into the game at that end point.."-op

 

This is going to blow your mind op.

 

Did you ever stop to think that lvls 1-85 are the timesink, and 85 is where the game starts?

[Enako]

Your entire argument is based off of the false mentality that a profitable amount of subscribers are willing to pay monthly for "story"

 

i am appalled at the fact that how people, who are in the minority hardcore segment of gaming, think that only their money exists, and noone else other than them pay for games.

 

excuse me, your segment - and my former segment by the way - is just 5%. a measly 5%, even in then-existing rather hardcore gaming crowd of vanilla wow - tbc. all kinds of segments that came to wow, ranging from ex starcraft players to ex everquest players, to ex ultima online players, fit in that.

 

and, from among this entire playerbase of already veteran gamers, ONLY 5% saw wow's endgame raids in vanilla and tbc.

 

a pathetically low amount from among even largely veteran gamer population.

 

who would pay monthly subscription to follow a good story ? pretty much rest of the population.

 

the same people who paid endless amount of cash for kotor 1/2, mass effect 1/2, dragon age 1/2. they are still paying and buying these, by the way.

 

the only drawbacks to these games was that, a new one of them was not coming out every 6 months.

 

Most people are only going to pay a subscription, if there is a form of endgame content like Raiding, or Competitive PvP, that justifies the monthly cost; as opposed to a single player story

 

thats the delusion of hardcore progressives. you only think your segment exists. whereas you are in the minority. even in veteran gamer crowd.

[Enako]

"only in everquest/wow timesinks, your character spends more time in 85 than level 84. and that is simply because a huge repetitive timesink is introduced into the game at that end point.."-op

 

This is going to blow your mind op.

 

Did you ever stop to think that lvls 1-85 are the timesink, and 85 is where the game starts?

 

that is as such in wow and everquest, and it is because these games are designed to be so.

 

its also the same reason why wow had to go free to play 1-20. game was a long boring grid to endgame raidfest, and people were just not playing again, or leveling new toons (majority), and newcomers were quitting before 20.

 

and they have gone free to play in order to be able to hook up as many grinders they can from the general gaming population.

[Theodwulf]

@OP You realy don't "get" MMOs , so I am guessing you at least work in the industry, if not BW/EA directly.

 

Mass story telling is very difficult, it becomes impossible when everyone wants to be "The Chosen One" . You cannot base a game on mass story telling of a personal nature. You can tell a meta story that everyone has a role (however small) in and let the player come up with the details of their story. BW style of story telling doesn't work in a mass enviroment.

 

The allure of "Endgame" is the social aspect of the game.