Rebuff Slicing - A plea from a non-slicer

[VioletZero]

Oh, I wish that Splicing was a crew skill. lol

[Pansophist]

Jack, before you call a lot of us stupid, a couple key points I noticed while I endured through your post:

 

It's slicing, not splicing.

Fix your grammar and spelling before you try to place your intelligence above any of ours.

There have always been better ways to make money than slicing. But then again, those who haven't hit 50 don't know that yet.

Hit 50, then come back to me and tell me the other crafting professions are just as useful as Biochem. The caveat to this, obviously, is that we don't have a lot of the recipes that may or may not drop, allowing crafters to create better armor than they can currently.

 

[edit]Although I do agree with you that part of the problem is a lot of people just want something that makes them the most money for the least amount of effort. [/edit]

 

Also, Violet, one of the few things you and I agree on is the sad state of the crew skills on SWTOR. Admittedly, I was poking fun at you there due to some of our recent engagements. I do not want to see any crew skill get nerfed at this point, Biochem least of all as, like you said, it does actually make sense.

 

The problem is, as you stated, relativity. People are clamoring for a Biochem nerf because in comparison to the other skills, it is superior. I'd love to see _all_ of the crew skills re-visited, it needs it. Crafting is a large part of any MMO to me, and thus far it has left me with a bitter taste in my mouth.

 

I heard once, and I do not know if this is true, that crafting was more of an afterthought in SWTOR development. Originally, there weren't any large plans for crafting in this game. I heard this several months back, but it seems as if that might be the case with the lack of thought put into many of the professions.

 

I will get down off of the high horse now, and grudgingly give you a nod of respect for the Biochem post - I did enjoy it

Edited December 31, 2011 by Pansophist

[Racheakt]

Oh, I wish that Splicing was a crew skill. lol

 

So remove the nodes from the world and rebuff slicing abit? I'm game ;-)

Edited December 31, 2011 by Racheakt

[VioletZero]

You know what? I am being an ***. I apologize for my behavior.

 

I still think it was broken before. But I am NOT in favor of having useless crew skills.

 

The way that Slicing is currently implemented in game is completely at odds with the way crew skills work. That's what it comes down to. Both its pre-nerf and post nerf forms are evidence of this.

 

How exactly this will be fixed is another issue all together.

[Pansophist]

You know what? I am being an ***. I apologize for my behavior.

 

I still think it was broken before. But I am NOT in favor of having useless crew skills.

 

The way that Slicing is currently implemented in game is completely at odds with the way crew skills work. That's what it comes down to. Both its pre-nerf and post nerf forms are evidence of this.

 

How exactly this will be fixed is another issue all together.

 

It's okay, I was much more of an *** than you at times, although I try to hide most of it in subtle insults most people won't catch. The reason you and I sparked against each other so much is because you do catch them.

 

On another note, this is where the devs should come in and notice. When two people who have been completely at odds start agreeing that most of their crew skills system needs to be reworked or at the very least re-evaluated, something definitely needs to change.

 

I actually laughed as I read your post, because I thought "Well da**, I no longer want to debate with him. Now I really know something needs to be done about the crew skills."

 

Carry on, folks, it's been fun. I think I'm going to take my exodus from the forums for a bit and go play.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Pansophist

[stayonboard]

Funny, if you actually read that thread then you would have realized that it actually had little to do with Biochem itself but rather the sad state of crafting today.

 

Biochem was really just talked about as an example of how and why the crafting skill works.

 

So either you didn't read it or you read what you want to read to make your opposition look as pathetic as possible.

 

 

Funny... I remember you from pregame launch and it seems you still haven't smartened up since then.

 

If one cannot see how the slicing nerf has impacted EVERYONE there's absolutely no hope. I used to put materials on the GTN and make a profit - now?? Pfff... I couldn't give them away. I have 2 pages worth of GOOD stuff that used to sell like hotcakes sitting there for days... no one will spend the cash, it completely ruined the economy.

 

I also have to LOL at those who say they lose money in other professions. Do you not understand how slicing works? at all? I'll explain it to you. You send a companion out on a lockbox mission for say... 2000 credits. Before, he would return in say, 30 minutes with 2700 credits. Now, he will return with 1400 credits. I don't get any other items or things I can sell - Im just as better off giving money to a stranger in a cantina.

 

And - like the OP, I'm not saying it didn't need a nerf... it absolutely did, especially at lower brackets, but to absolutely smash it into the ground giving you 15% of before? Pathetic.

Edited December 31, 2011 by stayonboard

[Swordsandarmor]

Well Gamers need to learn, not everything should be handed to them on a silver platter. It is what is killing games, making them worse, making them cater to people who want everything for nothing. Sure there are many games out now, but they went down from 40 hours to 10-15 average. My point is we need to get back to the older games, where hitting 50 and having a mount meant something, now the only sign of having something is having over 1 mil credits lol. The sooner Bioware kicks them in the butt and say, ' WORK for some money, don't be lazy. The better.

 

I play games for fun i don't expect to play a game to WORK. I have a job for that

[VioletZero]

What I particularly love is the wording.

 

Rewards from Slicing have been reduced to bring them into balance with other skills.

 

I love how no one accused this of being a lie. Because it is true, more true than BioWare even realizes.

[CtJackHarkness]

Jack, before you call a lot of us stupid, a couple key points I noticed while I endured through your post:

 

It's slicing, not splicing.

Fix your grammar and spelling before you try to place your intelligence above any of ours.

There have always been better ways to make money than slicing. But then again, those who haven't hit 50 don't know that yet.

Hit 50, then come back to me and tell me the other crafting professions are just as useful as Biochem. The caveat to this, obviously, is that we don't have a lot of the recipes that may or may not drop, allowing crafters to create better armor than they can currently.

 

[edit]Although I do agree with you that part of the problem is a lot of people just want something that makes them the most money for the least amount of effort. [/edit]

 

Also, Violet, one of the few things you and I agree on is the sad state of the crew skills on SWTOR. Admittedly, I was poking fun at you there due to some of our recent engagements. I do not want to see any crew skill get nerfed at this point, Biochem least of all as, like you said, it does actually make sense.

 

The problem is, as you stated, relativity. People are clamoring for a Biochem nerf because in comparison to the other skills, it is superior. I'd love to see _all_ of the crew skills re-visited, it needs it. Crafting is a large part of any MMO to me, and thus far it has left me with a bitter taste in my mouth.

 

I heard once, and I do not know if this is true, that crafting was more of an afterthought in SWTOR development. Originally, there weren't any large plans for crafting in this game. I heard this several months back, but it seems as if that might be the case with the lack of thought put into many of the professions.

 

I will get down off of the high horse now, and grudgingly give you a nod of respect for the Biochem post - I did enjoy it

 

I am 50, and once again I will say this - you people need to quit whining. Slicing (yes i misspelled it but clearly you are in that state of ego you can't look past a grammar mistake to the real point - or just short sided) still makes profit, it's just not the same one SLICERS are used to exposing. So kindly stop falling from your 'high horse'.

 

Also "The problem is, as you stated, relativity. People are clamoring for a Biochem nerf because in comparison to the other skills, it is superior. "

 

How so? Please tell me as I have an alt with 350 biochem and a slicer at 400. How is biochem more superior? It can make med pacs and some reusables that are extremely hard to make ingredient wise? Is that right? Or is it simply because all the other people whining about not making enough money are failing to see the potential market slicing still has if they didn't have the intention to overprice the hell out of anything they craft.

 

Let me tell you something - all these slicers going Biochem for the sake of making insane money, they will be VERY disappointed. And I will always sell my stuff for very cheap and bring them down by cheaper I mean deadly moderate cheap similar to the cost. I'll even go to zero profit if anything.

Edited January 1, 2012 by CtJackHarkness

[Timayus]

I play games for fun i don't expect to play a game to WORK. I have a job for that

 

For the last time, work for money, doesn't mean, farm for hours, no, i got a few hundred thousand in about an hour or two just doing quest alone. it is not that hard to get money just questing with the content you get.

[stayonboard]

I am 50, and once again I will say this - you people need to quit whining. Slicing (yes i misspelled it but clearly you are in that state of ego you can't look past a grammar mistake to the real point - or just short sided) still makes profit, it's just not the same one you are used to exposing. So kindly stop falling from your 'high horse'

 

hmm.. I didn't realize paying 2000 credits to get a return of 1500 credits was making profit.

 

Thank you for keeping us all informed.

[Zennshi]

Honestly, the reason people are not buying things, in my opinion their easy flow of cash they had to do nothing but click three buttons really is gone, which is good. People can still make easy cash flow, i went to ilum did about... 8 maybe 10 quest walked away with 150,000 credits, by just killing mobs, which were dropping anywhere from 500-1000 credits a single kill and nearly 12,000 from just turning in simple, kill 10 guys plant 1 bomb quest on dailies.

 

People can still make good money on slicing if they actually go out and find those slicing nodes, most gamers are lazy and want the thing right now, no work little work. I am not putting you in that category it takes some skill to play the GTN right, i know a few people that manipulated many games Auction houses and walked away rich as high heck. Granted they also farmed mats harder than most Chinese farmers lol. No, I am not a slicer, but i have multiple slicer friends who have told me they still make enough money the right way, and i made that much just getting my daily commendations in Ilum, money is not hard to make people just do not wish to work for it.

 

Btw, I Apologize for any rambling just woke up brain isn't fully functioning just yet.

 

Let me sum this up "Its easy to make money by being level 50

 

 

Really?

 

Really?

 

-_-;;

 

Are you even listening to yourself?

 

You aren't even trying to defend the slicing nerf with real logic and are instead offering alternative non crew skill related ways to make money.

 

Are you trolling?

Edited January 1, 2012 by Zennshi

[Kusumura]

Signed.

 

'Nuff said.

[ezrafetch]

Slicers had control over the market. End of story. This is wrong. The second issue was that it made "gold" farming stupidly easy which also led to devaluing money. In the short term it may all look good but what was really happening is a Diablo economy where gold meant nothing at all.

 

Except...that's not the way a market works. Assuming the market clears, no one sets the price. It reaches an equilibrium and both buyers and sellers take the price that the market has set by the various exogenous variables and previous iterations of the market. There's also a point where the market has enough money supply that folks are going to move away from Slicing to crafting skills, because, you know, there's enough money to go around. They will see that crafting mats can get ______ creds and will switch out of Slicing to start finding those mats too so they can get more credits than if they'd just Sliced constantly.

 

I'm not arguing that it should go back to its old self (it shouldn't completely be restored), but the Slicing nerf in an infant economy that was trying to find a reasonable money supply and economy does no good for anyone. Not for the Slicers who buy the goods, and not for the people who are trying to sell their goods.

[Kenmuir]

I think the biggest thing people are forgetting has nothing to do with the slicing nerf. As we get farther away from the release date people are getting higher level. As you get higher the price for getting Class Skills increases very fast. For my last level I had to spend almost 50k credits at level 34 to get all of my skills. I simply don't have the extra money to get the same amount of GTN items I used to.

[BrigOrion]

I don't play games to make imaginary money. I make plenty of real money in the real world.

[Mookz]

I don't play games to make imaginary money. I make plenty of real money in the real world.

why you fraudin in my post brah

[Zennshi]

I don't play games to make imaginary money. I make plenty of real money in the real world.

 

This logic is also what drives people to buy gold.

 

Not saying you will, but if you can spare 20 bucks for 2 million credits, why not?

[Darth_Melf]

I don't want to troll or anything, but i read through this and I admit I'm not lvl 50 yet. And yes I am a slicer but NO, I didn't take the skill untill AFTER the nerf.

 

An argument I have not yet seen ( and I am not sure it is important, though I think it might be ) is that slicing is a gathering skill. People now say that slicing COSTS money. And slicing missions costing 2000 and only giving 1500 is wrong because that is working with a loss. Can someone stating that explain to me why that is supposedly wrong ?

 

Take Archeology ...

- when gathering things from nodes that i can sell i WIN money

- when doing missions i lose money and get relative returns

 

Mission skills ... why should slicing be the only skill that grants missions and makes you WIN money by doing them ? All other mission skills COST money.

 

I am making sweet cash from slicing ( and i only took it AFTER the nerf ) because I don't do that many missions ( except for when i want companion gifts and augments ) ... slicing nodes in the world actually make you more cash then other gathering skills. And I tested this.

 

 

I am also wondering about the pre nerf situation where a seller tried to sell stuff and due to inflation of money ... a slicer could pay the crazy prices and sellers of things could ask more and more because hey ... slicers could pay it anyway.

 

The nerf may SEEM bad because now AH items sell for less ( or not at all ) ... but try please not to take a NIMBY attitude and look at the whole picture. I - as a nonslicer - before the nerf could not buy a number of things because I could not pay the overpriced stuff on the AH.

 

Think about it ... should a crafter try to sell a lvl 15 item that will be obsolete by lvl 18 ... should he ask for 20.000 credits ? Now, I see prices drop to levels that more people can afford. Do the sellers of these items find that a shame ? Yes, no doubt thanks to slicers paying a lot of cash for very few items they also made easy money. You could look at it positively ... you get more players who are able to pay what you ask. Sellers of things can still make large amounts of cash. Only instead of selling 1 item for 10000 credits, you'll have to sell 10 items for 1000 credits each.

 

So yes, the nerf hurts not only the slicers but others as well, and that in itself shows the effects the prenerf situation was having. As for people hoarding cash, don't worry about that, after economic changes there is always a period where people will observe a bit before resuming their spending again.

 

 

Personally, I am very much in favor of the nerf.

 

 

kind regards, Melf

Edited January 1, 2012 by Darth_Melf

[CtJackHarkness]

Patently false. Once the non-Slicers start putting up their mats, they'll get paid for their mats. Since there was more money around with Slicers, their mats were going to sell for higher prices. The money would have made it into non-Slicer's hands once the economy had settled. The game wasn't even out for two weeks before they nerfed Slicing: the market was not even well-formed when they nerfhammered Slicing, which was foolish. No one had started to put enough mats out onto the market to completely supply it, which is why everyone was keeping credits in their pocket, which led to everyone keeping credits and storing them until they could spend them on stuff, whether it was twink gear or, you know, crafting materials. Now they've just slammed the market by withdrawing a ton of credits from the market. Think of it as akin to a massive credit crunch or the Federal Reserve requiring everyone to buy bonds to pull back the money supply by at least 30%. The results wouldn't be pretty in either real-life case, and we're seeing it in TOR now.

 

Did Slicing need a nerf? Sure, but changing it from an over-profitable activity to a sure-loss activity in one swift move was a terrible idea. It needed to be a smaller change or something spread out over a few months. It was foolhardy to shrink the money supply so quickly, especially when a market is new. A new market does need some money supply to get started, and TOR's starving for it right now.

 

False. It has been proven to yield positive profits, just not as much. It is not a sure-fire loss activity. Please do your research or refer to the Analysis threads done by one smart user.

[stayonboard]

False. It has been proven to yield positive profits, just not as much. It is not a sure-fire loss activity. Please do your research or refer to the Analysis threads done by one smart user.

 

Im really tired of your pompous attitude - you are not the be-all-end-all and I find it absolutely hilarious you treat others opinion as "stupid", not even being able to see how much of an idiot you're being in this whole process. Flame away, doesn't matter.

 

The search results are very often yielding a negative return. Are they always negative, no - absolutely not... but many times they are. There's countless times that I will try a lockbox and lose 500 credits with nothing to show for it.... which brings me to my next point from another poster:

 

I don't want to troll or anything, but i read through this and I admit I'm not lvl 50 yet. And yes I am a slicer but NO, I didn't take the skill untill AFTER the nerf.

 

An argument I have not yet seen ( and I am not sure it is important, though I think it might be ) is that slicing is a gathering skill. People now say that slicing COSTS money. And slicing missions costing 2000 and only giving 1500 is wrong because that is working with a loss. Can someone stating that explain to me why that is supposedly wrong ?

 

Take Archeology ...

- when gathering things from nodes that i can sell i WIN money

- when doing missions i lose money and get relative returns

 

When you use the example of say, Archeology, you are GAINING items in the process - that's the key difference. While you most certainly lose money, you at least get an asset for your trouble. So, let's say you lose 1000 credits on an archeology mission but you gain 6 level 5 supplies, well, then you are actually getting something back for your loss. With slicing, if you lose (which, is an awful lot right now) then you lose credits AND you have nothing to show for it - that's the difference. I don't care if I lose money from the crew skill, but I expect SOMETHING for my efforts, if not, why even bother? Why should I send my companions out at 2k each for 30 minutes a shot to make 1890 credits ? Or hell... to make 2100 credits, why is it even worthwhile? For the odd time I crit and hit a money shot of 5000 credits? That happens maybe once every 20 times? I laugh at all these nonsense stats people try to come up with numbers that are such a small sample size. It's like judging a baseball player on 20 at bats, it's completely useless.... and you don't EVER get a lockbox with say, 100 credits, so those crits are most certainly pushing any averages that these people might find. Regardless, no matter what anyone says it's not a useful profession in it's current state and you're much better off leveling something else instead.

 

Believe me I fully agree that a nerf was needed, but knee jerk relations like this are absolutely moronic for a company like Bioware and I trust they will eventually fix it. No, not to the levels it once was, that was kind of stupid as well - but at least to make it worthwhile enough to level. If not, they will eventually just remove it from the game entirely as no one will bother leveling it for absolutely no gain (or very very little). Anyone who thinks 10k every few hours at level 50 is going to keep someone on slicing is sorely mistaken, not when you can go with Biochem or Cybernetics and actually craft useful items in the process.

 

Either way, Im not ************ -- in fact, I don't really care much either way, it has very minimal impact on my gaming pleasure but some of these posts by people who THINK they know what they are talking about is what bugs me... I'm surprised some people can get out of bed in the morning and tie their shoes before going to work.

[Rivetcrow]

If one cannot see how the slicing nerf has impacted EVERYONE there's absolutely no hope.

 

The counter point to this is that if one cannot see how one skill having such an overwhelming impact on the entire game population is a bad thing, there's absolutely no hope.

 

Do you not understand how slicing works? at all? I'll explain it to you. You send a companion out on a lockbox mission for say... 2000 credits. Before, he would return in say, 30 minutes with 2700 credits. Now, he will return with 1400 credits. I don't get any other items or things I can sell - Im just as better off giving money to a stranger in a cantina.

 

Funny - that's not how slicing works for me. At all. I still (post-nerf) make money off just missions along with getting discovery missions for other crafting skills. And all the slicing nodes out in the game world are just gravy on top of that. Sure there is the occasional, individual mission that you lose credits on but over the long run (heck, even over the short run) missions turn a profit.

 

Bottom line - slicing is still profitable.

[Leomccoy]

if the point is to continue to have an influx of currency to the galactic trade network i would think continuing to have that capital be at the hand of only slicers initially is an unhealthy one. It skews demand/supply to much in the hand of one group, not to say that slicers dont cover multiple classes/crew skills, it just has money divided between slicers, and those who provide to slicers. It would be far better to simply increase credit gain from quests/loot so as to have everyone spending money more robustly then before.

 

plus and its a side note but i'd actually like to see steps to make the "economy" more accessible on other planets so there are more goods placed on the auction more frequently, rather then the current system that do to it only being on your capital planet,fleet and nar shadaa. How you establish market value in a system with arbitrary sale prices, while you have slicer and non slicers doesn't really flush out anything other then who has the money to meet the price set, rather then having price meet money available to players.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Leomccoy

[Neblin]

When you use the example of say, Archeology, you are GAINING items in the process - that's the key difference. While you most certainly lose money, you at least get an asset for your trouble. So, let's say you lose 1000 credits on an archeology mission but you gain 6 level 5 supplies, well, then you are actually getting something back for your loss. With slicing, if you lose (which, is an awful lot right now) then you lose credits AND you have nothing to show for it - that's the difference

 

So if you send 1000 credits on a mission and get 800 back, its broken.

 

If any other craft spends 1000 credits on a mission and gets items worth 800 credits upon reselling, it's all good?

 

And btw, the guy you quoted was right. If you browse these forums and look at the posts of people who actually bothered to write down gains/losses, Slicing missions are still profitable. Just run Abundant/Rich ones. At the end of the day you'll have made a profit.

[archzai]

Honestly, the reason people are not buying things, in my opinion their easy flow of cash they had to do nothing but click three buttons really is gone, which is good. People can still make easy cash flow, i went to ilum did about... 8 maybe 10 quest walked away with 150,000 credits, by just killing mobs, which were dropping anywhere from 500-1000 credits a single kill and nearly 12,000 from just turning in simple, kill 10 guys plant 1 bomb quest on dailies.

 

People can still make good money on slicing if they actually go out and find those slicing nodes, most gamers are lazy and want the thing right now, no work little work. I am not putting you in that category it takes some skill to play the GTN right, i know a few people that manipulated many games Auction houses and walked away rich as high heck. Granted they also farmed mats harder than most Chinese farmers lol. No, I am not a slicer, but i have multiple slicer friends who have told me they still make enough money the right way, and i made that much just getting my daily commendations in Ilum, money is not hard to make people just do not wish to work for it.

 

Btw, I Apologize for any rambling just woke up brain isn't fully functioning just yet.

 

I'm sorry that YOUR definition of fun is having to earn money to spend in the game. It's a game, the last thing most people want to do after working a job all day, is to come back and have to do something as monotonous as farming mobs or doing daily quests out of necessity instead of interest.

 

Also, it was ridiculously stupid of BioWare to nerf slicing so fast soon after the release of the game, over complaints from people who chose the wrong profession. It's even more stupid when riding skill alone will cost almost 800-900k credits and skills are costing 10k-15k a pop.

Edited January 1, 2012 by archzai