PVP has been killed, and so will SWTOR.

[Ajalkaar]

31 minutes ago, lothloriaa said:

2v2, 3v3 has both grouped and solo

absolutly not 2v2 and 3v3 are group ranked modes ONLY you must be confusing with the unranked arena mod wich is for 3v3 players max (it can be 2v2 if there isn't enough healers in queue) but it's a single mode and works just like swtor current arena queue.

 

 

31 minutes ago, lothloriaa said:

If you're in WOW now, why are you here?

Are you saying that I can't play wow because swtor as no content but still getting involved into swtor community because I played this game for more than ten years I'm still playing it with friends now and then ???? 

Edited May 19 by Ajalkaar

[Ajalkaar]

32 minutes ago, lothloriaa said:

And 2v2/3v3 is far more fun than 4v4 because at least in 3v3 the teams were balanced.

In 4v4 on SWTOR, you usually end up with really STUPID mismatches.  Always 1 team has a healer/tank/2dps, I end up on a 4 DPS team. 

again that's because wow is thousands of times more populated than swtor so of course the matchmaking will be better. 

How does a matchmaking algorithm works ?

 The matchmaking uses a list of rules ranked by priority, such as balancing roles within each team, matching premades against each other, etc. When one of these rules cannot be met, the game will move on to the next priority, performing what is called backfill to allow players to still get the pop even if the matchmaking hasn't met all its priorities.

SWTOR as a very low population overall and especially in PvP that's why a lot of matchmaking priorities are being overuled wich result in a matchmaking of a lesser quality and vice versa that's why WoW matchmaking as less issues.

 

Why not strengthen the priorities to improve the quality of matchmaking?

 

If you make the matchmaking more demanding it will increased the queue time since the algorithm needs to take more time to form teams that meet its priorities.
So devs are left with the choice to either have longer queue times and a better matchmaking quality or having a lesser queue time at the expense  of the matchmaking quality.


When you look at swtor queue time are already pretty long most of the time so they can't rlly increase the matchmaking strenght further and that's why all issues are tied to one single reason : low player population.

Edited May 19 by Ajalkaar

[lothloriaa]

7 minutes ago, Ajalkaar said:

absolutly not 2v2 and 3v3 are group ranked modes ONLY you must be confusing with the unranked arena mod wich is for 3v3 players max (it can be 2v2 if there isn't enough healers in queue) but it's a single mod and works just like swtor current arena queue.

Are you saying that I can't play wow because swtor as no content but still getting involved into swtor community because I played this gamefor more than ten tears I'm still playing it with friends now and then ???? 

 

1 hour ago, Ajalkaar said:

again that's because wow is thousands of times more populated than swtor so of course the matchmaking will be better. 

How does a matchmaking algorithm works ?

 The matchmaking uses a list of rules ranked by priority, such as balancing roles within each team, matching premades against each other, etc. When one of these rules cannot be met, the game will move on to the next priority, performing what is called backfill to allow players to still get the pop even if the matchmaking hasn't met all its priorities.

SWTOR as a very low population overall and especially in PvP that's why a lot of matchmaking priorities are being overuled wich result in a matchmaking of a lesser quality and vice versa that's why WoW matchmaking as less issues.

 

Why not strengthen the priorities to improve the quality of matchmaking?

 

If you make the matchmaking more demanding it will increased the queue time since the algorithm needs to take more time to form teams that meet its priorities.
So devs are left with the choice to either have longer queue times and a better matchmaking quality or having a lesser queue time at the expense  of the matchmaking quality.


When you look at swtor queue time are already pretty long most of the time so they can't rlly increase the matchmaking strenght further and that's why all issues are tied to one single reason : low player population.

 

With everything you said above, if SWTOR were to use 2v2/3v3, ranked/grouped, non ranked, non grouped, don't you think there'd be more queues and more popularity in the game?  SWTOR has never adjusted to increase interest in the game.  So leaving things at 4v4, 8v8 is not the answer.

Nor is letting grouped matches vs pugs helping. In 4v4 all morning, I'm facing nothing but premades.

[Ajalkaar]

59 minutes ago, lothloriaa said:

With everything you said above, if SWTOR were to use 2v2/3v3, ranked/grouped, non ranked, non grouped, don't you think there'd be more queues and more popularity in the game? 

not at all for the same reason that team ranked was empty in 6.0. Let's be real 90% of players in pvp are not competitive and when they have to 4v4 against experienced players (premade or not) it's a no match. 3v3 and 2v2 is event more reliant on skill and meta than 4v4 how do you think this these would go ? players will flee these Q because they're either too bad to win anything or just because they would be forced to play meta to even be competitive. Most of ppl will just avoid group Q and 2v2 3v3 4v4 Q because most ppl aren't competitive players and aren't good at pvp wich makes makes this kind of gamemode not fun at all for a huge majority of players. And even for experienced the players who would like this kind of Q,  they will just stop to Q for 2v2 3v3 because it would pop enough due to this gamemode being unpopular.

Look at the current arena queue you're already seeing the same players again and again what do you think 2v2 and 3v3 would 

and soloQ 2v2 and 3v3 would be a disaster since it's heavy reliant on the players skill and class meta so most of the time would either be against unwinnable meta matchup or just with a complete random that can't even pop a dcd. At least in 4v4 if one player is trash you can still do something but not in 3v3 2v2 its too big of a disadvantage. That's why 2v2 and 3v3 ranked and only groupQ on wow and that's why regular arena are fairly unpopular.

[lothloriaa]

2 minutes ago, Ajalkaar said:

not at all for the same reason that team ranked was empty in 6.0. Let's be real 90% of players in pvp are not competitive and when they have to 4v4 against experienced players (premade or not) it's a no match. 3v3 and 2v2 is event more reliant on skill and meta than 4v4 how do you think this these would go ? players will flee these Q because they're either too bad to win anything or just because they would be forced to play meta to even be competitive. Most of ppl will just avoid group Q and 2v2 3v3 4v4 Q because most ppl aren't competitive players and aren't good at pvp wich makes makes this kind of gamemode not fun at all for a huge majority of players. And even for experienced the players who would like this kind of Q,  they will just stop to Q for 2v2 3v3 because it would pop enough due to this gamemode being unpopular.

Look at the current arena queue you're already seeing the same players again and again what do you think 2v2 and 3v3 would 

and soloQ 2v2 and 3v3 would be a disaster since it's heavy reliant on the players skill and class meta so most of the time would either be against unwinnable meta matchup or just with a complete random that can't even pop a dcd. At least in 4v4 if one player is trash you can still do something but not in 3v3 2v2 its too big of a disadvantage. That's why 2v2 and 3v3 ranked and only groupQ on wow and that's why regular arena are fairly unpopular.

 

Well the ones who quickly leave 2v2, 3v3 won't have to wait as long for another queue, at least he ones that keep going.  Takes longer to build a 4v4 queue than a 2v2 queue, agreed?  NO tank classes should be allowed in 2v2, 3v3 either.  DPS/Heals, that's it.  This isn't dungeons we're doing here, so I see no reason to have a tank.  I'm fine in 2v2 with either team having 2 dps or 1 dps, 1 healer.  

I'm just thinking if its smaller pvp matches, we can some more interest.  At the very least try it out and see if it helps.  At least I know WOW works really hard to fine tune classes as to not have them OP.  SWTOR hasn't done a lot in that area yet. 

[Ajalkaar]

10 minutes ago, lothloriaa said:

 

Well the ones who quickly leave 2v2, 3v3 won't have to wait as long for another queue, at least he ones that keep going.  Takes longer to build a 4v4 queue than a 2v2 queue, agreed?  NO tank classes should be allowed in 2v2, 3v3 either.  DPS/Heals, that's it.  This isn't dungeons we're doing here, so I see no reason to have a tank.  I'm fine in 2v2 with either team having 2 dps or 1 dps, 1 healer.  

I'm just thinking if its smaller pvp matches, we can some more interest.  At the very least try it out and see if it helps.  At least I know WOW works really hard to fine tune classes as to not have them OP.  SWTOR hasn't done a lot in that area yet. 

2v2 in solo Q would be very unbalanced because actual class balance is very very bad and isn't suitable for a 2v2 mode and because the huge skill gap against players nowadays because now the player who still PvP in swtor are either very experienced players that can't quit the game because they're addicted or very new players who still haven't be affected too much by the game issues.

And 2v2 groupQ would be empty because there isn't that much players willing to Q against the same team again and again with probably a long Q time with no rewards at the end (at least team ranked had rewards).

 

same problems with 3v3 just in lesser proportions

Edited May 19 by Ajalkaar

[lothloriaa]

8 minutes ago, Ajalkaar said:

2v2 in solo Q would be very unbalanced because actual class balance is very very bad <----

and isn't suitable for a 2v2 mode and because the huge skill gap against players nowadays because now the player who still PvP in swtor are either very experienced players that can't quit the game because they're addicted or very new players who still haven't be affected too much by the game issues.

And 2v2 groupQ would be empty because there isn't that much players willing to Q against the same team again and again with probably a long Q time with no rewards at the end (at least team ranked had rewards).

 

same problems with 3v3 just in lesser proportions

 

On the 2v2 being unbalanced, that's the developers problem to solve.  This game came out, what, a good while after WOW and they still can't get it right. In WOW, 2v2 is mage/rogue, warrior/healer, etc.  

As for the queue's being longer, I doubt it.  It'd be 1/2 the time 4v4 is.  3v3 would be interesting, as dps/tank/heal matchup could take forever but 3dps vs 1 healer, 2dps could be interesting.

I mean, they have to do something to bring in more pvpers because the PVE content is just -- blah.  I find that the most boring aspect of a MMORPG. I want to face other players, not NPCs.

[Ajalkaar]

1 minute ago, lothloriaa said:

On the 2v2 being unbalanced, that's the developers problem to solve.  This game came out, what, a good while after WOW and they still can't get it right. In WOW, 2v2 is mage/rogue, warrior/healer, etc.  

Ofc its the dev problem but they don't care at all about this since years why would they change by adding another PvP mode. They won't magicely decide to balance their game so forget it. The day devs will focus on balancing issues or any issues in this game then we would start to talk about adding new PvP modes.
But balancing isn't the only issue.

 

4 minutes ago, lothloriaa said:

As for the queue's being longer, I doubt it.  It'd be 1/2 the time 4v4 is.  3v3 would be interesting, as dps/tank/heal matchup could take forever but 3dps vs 1 healer, 2dps could be interesting.

Because you're assuming that there will be the same amount of players in Q for 2v2 as in 4v4 right now. Like I said my prediction is that if 4v4 is already unpopular it would be way worse for 2v2 simply because 2v2 would be very unfun most of the time because it rely way more on meta and player skills wich the 2 main issues of pvp right now after 8players premades
And I'm not even talking about the fact that swtor in future would have less and less players unless devs decide to take a massive turn around and fix a lot of things. But this would be extremely surprising.  

[lothloriaa]

22 minutes ago, Ajalkaar said:

Ofc its the dev problem but they don't care at all about this since years why would they change by adding another PvP mode. They won't magicely decide to balance their game so forget it. The day devs will focus on balancing issues or any issues in this game then we would start to talk about adding new PvP modes.
But balancing isn't the only issue.

 

Because you're assuming that there will be the same amount of players in Q for 2v2 as in 4v4 right now. Like I said my prediction is that if 4v4 is already unpopular it would be way worse for 2v2 simply because 2v2 would be very unfun most of the time because it rely way more on meta and player skills wich the 2 main issues of pvp right now after 8players premades
And I'm not even talking about the fact that swtor in future would have less and less players unless devs decide to take a massive turn around and fix a lot of things. But this would be extremely surprising.  

The reason why WOW does well is subscribers which = BIG $$$.  That is the MAIN (and probably only) reason to get in line.  How can they continue to fumble and stumble with this game with the entire backing of the entire STAR WARS franchise behind it. The fact it is neglected and little is done to improve is just utterly embarrassing.

As for 2v2 vs 4v4, it's less "chaotic".  The 2v2, 3v3s often happen in BGs, so it isn't something unusual. 

My main point being "What harm would there be at least to TRY?!"

[supertimtaf]

22 minutes ago, lothloriaa said:

The reason why WOW does well is subscribers which = BIG $$$.  That is the MAIN (and probably only) reason to get in line.  How can they continue to fumble and stumble with this game with the entire backing of the entire STAR WARS franchise behind it. The fact it is neglected and little is done to improve is just utterly embarrassing.

While WoW does indeed earn money from subscription, the fact is that they can afford to ask people to subscribe because there are *things to do* in the game. The game gets updated frequently, and has a lot of things to do once you hit max level that aren't just "go grind galactic season". The sheer difference in update size is both a result and a cause for the subscription model.

Another example is Guild Wars 2 and ESO. Both have the "buy to play" model, you buy something once then can play for free. They both have a cash shop, with roughly the same prices, but ESO also posesses a subscription model that's not mandatory but still unlocks every expansions that you didn't buy as long as you're subbed. Well, let me just say that GW2 is getting updated far less than ESO is, because GW2 only relies on purchases.

The main thing with ESO is that there has never been a drop in content quality, which makes you want to stay subbed. The fact that you also have to buy the latest expansion each time also funds the game considerably more than swtor. The main issue being that swtor knew from the start that Kotet and the likes wouldn't be filled with enough content to justify a purchase. So they shot themselves in the foot and are still limping to this day.

22 minutes ago, lothloriaa said:

As for 2v2 vs 4v4, it's less "chaotic".  The 2v2, 3v3s often happen in BGs, so it isn't something unusual. 

My main point being "What harm would there be at least to TRY?!"

There is always a cost. Two things mainly. The first one is "manpower". Swtor is a 40 people team. It's very, VERY tiny for a MMO. If you want to add a new mode you need to assign someone to work on it. This means that this person will probably not be able to work on something else for a bit of time. This means that something else needs to get delayed unless the devs really want to work on both (which can happen, FFXIV does that all the time) and so there's a good chance that at this point some other piece of content will be getting shafted. That's risky.

The consequence of this is also, you guessed it, money. It costs money to put a developper to work. And if you have some margins of error it's okay, you can assign someone to work on a piece of content that will "maybe" (or maybe not) bring players. The issue here I think is that swtor doesn't have that margin of error anymore. It's probably why we don't have a new flashpoint in the next update. They don't have the money to do everything anymore, so they're stuck in that awkward position of "what will bring us money to keep working ?"

The obvious trap that too many developpers fall into is "well let's do MTX and stuff that's low effort like Galactic Seasons and PvP season !" which, while it does indeed put out content, will also harm the game on the long term due to a drastically lower retention rate for players than if you put out good content. So basically they're in panic mode, because they don't have money (they can't hire anyone else to help them, that's pretty telling), and so they're in full damage control, trying to release as much low-effort content that'll last a while, unaware that this will in term have the same result as it has on any other game : Less players and less money.

TL;DR : They're trapped because they don't know what to do and don't have the money and knowledge to get out of this situation. So while it doesn't always hurt to try, in their case it definitely can. Will they have the courage to do so ? I hope because at this point they can only get out of this situation with risky gambles like that.

[Ajalkaar]

1 hour ago, lothloriaa said:

My main point being "What harm would there be at least to TRY?!"

because this would in any way fix swtor problem and like I said in the actual stat of the game a 2v2 game mode would be horrible or at best boring to play because of balancing issues community etc...

 

[lothloriaa]

Ok I can't disagree there, but if SWTOR only has a 40 man team, then just copy that over for 3v3, then maybe they need to find other careers, because I'm not sure what other "Content" they are working on.  If they can't determine how to remove 1 player or 2 players from 4v4 with just 1-2 people working on it, I dunno.  Seems to be they're just raking in the cartel cash.

WOW has a pretty active PVP base.  At least when I played (got censored too much so stopped playing), there wasn't long queues for 2v2 and 3v3.  Rated BGs though, that took a very long time.

Edited May 19 by lothloriaa

[lothloriaa]

3 hours ago, Ajalkaar said:

because this would in any way fix swtor problem and like I said in the actual stat of the game a 2v2 game mode would be horrible or at best boring to play because of balancing issues community etc...

 

Don't understand.  WOW can do it, why cant SWTOR do it?  Takes time/effort, but its possible.

[supertimtaf]

2 hours ago, lothloriaa said:

because I'm not sure what other "Content" they are working on.  If they can't determine how to remove 1 player or 2 players from 4v4 with just 1-2 people working on it, I dunno.

Not everyone in this 40-man team knows how coding works. The best bet would be to assume that half of this team is probably artists, a quarter of that is most likely system/content designers and the rest would be coders, so the people in charge of actually coding new enemies, content and gamemodes. That leaves then 10 people roughly to work on everything code related, so be it the new UI features, the new basilisk droid feature, implementing quests, bug fixing, new enemies to create, triggers for quest progressions and story... I mean, that's an awfull lot of work for ten people, especially on an engine that's notorious for being hard to work on. I'm not saying that it's impossible, just that everything takes time, and that not everyone in this 40-man team knows the intricacies of Arenas to attempt making a 2v2 version.
 

3 hours ago, lothloriaa said:

Seems to be they're just raking in the cartel cash.

You got that thing right though.  It's getting harder and harder to see what they're trying to do with the game and more and more obvious that they're stretching playtime for more money.

[VegaMist]

8 hours ago, supertimtaf said:

The best bet would be to assume that half of this team is probably artists, a quarter of that is most likely system/content designers and the rest would be coders, so the people in charge of actually coding new enemies, content and gamemodes. That leaves then 10 people roughly to work on everything code related

Possibly fewer, since you didn't include management and customer service as part of your calculations. And that is only if Broadsword provides HR, accounting, and such from their previous team - otherwise, they'd have to be counted too.

However, running lean should never be an excuse for a poor product - it's just every decision matters more and has a bigger impact, for better or worse.

Edited May 20 by VegaMist

[Ajalkaar]

12 hours ago, lothloriaa said:

Don't understand.  WOW can do it, why cant SWTOR do it?  Takes time/effort, but its possible.

I've already answered to that : player population

And Blizzard and Bioware/Broadsword are two very different teams with very different ressources it's not even comparable

Edited May 20 by Ajalkaar

[lothloriaa]

9 hours ago, supertimtaf said:

Not everyone in this 40-man team knows how coding works. The best bet would be to assume that half of this team is probably artists, a quarter of that is most likely system/content designers and the rest would be coders, so the people in charge of actually coding new enemies, content and gamemodes. That leaves then 10 people roughly to work on everything code related, so be it the new UI features, the new basilisk droid feature, implementing quests, bug fixing, new enemies to create, triggers for quest progressions and story... I mean, that's an awfull lot of work for ten people, especially on an engine that's notorious for being hard to work on. I'm not saying that it's impossible, just that everything takes time, and that not everyone in this 40-man team knows the intricacies of Arenas to attempt making a 2v2 version.
 

You got that thing right though.  It's getting harder and harder to see what they're trying to do with the game and more and more obvious that they're stretching playtime for more money.

If I am right on the second, then this game is dead.  The new owners just don't realize it yet.

But when other players realize it, that cartel cash is going to disappear.    It would have made more sense for Blizzard to buy SWTOR....

[supertimtaf]

4 hours ago, lothloriaa said:

The new owners just don't realize it yet.

There is no "new owners". The team still takes orders from EA (very funny when you look at broadsword's motto on their website. "no suit is making the call for us" yeaaaah ). And they still have the same dev team as before, only smaller. I would have hoped that in the sake of transparency they'd have been more precise with all this, but no there is absolutely no new owners on swtor.

Just PR moves to make you believe that something changed for the better, unless one of the dev answers this thread to prove us wrong on that. 😕

5 hours ago, VegaMist said:

However, running lean should never be an excuse for a poor product

Sadly this is not the company's mentality at Bioware. You can thank Chris Schmidt for confirming that again on one of his tweet when the Broadsword merge happened.

If quality was one of the dev team's goal, then this game would not have flopped this hard. Each patch for swtor can be summed up kinda well by "it's okay but it lacks that extra attention to detail to make it truly great" and that defines this entire game. Swtor would have been different if the team sincerely tried for quality rather than just settling for "it works". Maybe they'd have an actual QA team too. What a surprise this was to see around 5.0 to see that they didn't even have this. (Official announcement from Keith Kanneg after a bug so bad it shutdown the servers for days)

 

4 hours ago, lothloriaa said:

It would have made more sense for Blizzard to buy SWTOR....

While I do say that the swtor dev team definitely deserves better than what they're forced to work with, I also don't wish them to be bought by Blizzard. If there is one company that is making absolutely zero efforts despite the colossal ressources they have, it's Blizzard. 

 

Anyway, to get back on track... 2v2 i'd like to see happen. But there's so few players, not sure this is even worth it at that point. Fix PvP's other issues *then* add more gamemodes. That's how things should work.

[lothloriaa]

20 hours ago, supertimtaf said:

There is no "new owners". The team still takes orders from EA (very funny when you look at broadsword's motto on their website. "no suit is making the call for us" yeaaaah ). And they still have the same dev team as before, only smaller. I would have hoped that in the sake of transparency they'd have been more precise with all this, but no there is absolutely no new owners on swtor.

Just PR moves to make you believe that something changed for the better, unless one of the dev answers this thread to prove us wrong on that. 😕

Sadly this is not the company's mentality at Bioware. You can thank Chris Schmidt for confirming that again on one of his tweet when the Broadsword merge happened.

If quality was one of the dev team's goal, then this game would not have flopped this hard. Each patch for swtor can be summed up kinda well by "it's okay but it lacks that extra attention to detail to make it truly great" and that defines this entire game. Swtor would have been different if the team sincerely tried for quality rather than just settling for "it works". Maybe they'd have an actual QA team too. What a surprise this was to see around 5.0 to see that they didn't even have this. (Official announcement from Keith Kanneg after a bug so bad it shutdown the servers for days)

 

While I do say that the swtor dev team definitely deserves better than what they're forced to work with, I also don't wish them to be bought by Blizzard. If there is one company that is making absolutely zero efforts despite the colossal ressources they have, it's Blizzard. 

 

Anyway, to get back on track... 2v2 i'd like to see happen. But there's so few players, not sure this is even worth it at that point. Fix PvP's other issues *then* add more gamemodes. That's how things should work.

 

Hmmm I've not been on WOW for about 8 months. I get banned for free speech, lol.  The way it works is someone can insult you, very abusively, but if you respond in kind, youg et banned.  It's because they reported me, but I didn't report them fast enough. Nice work, Blizzard.  What are they doing that you don't like?

I would love 2v2 and 3v3.  Those were fun in WOW, and would make more sense than just 4v4 and 8v8.  And why not make a legit 20v20 battleground?  Like Alterac Valley   Or was that the 40v40? Can't remember, I'm old AF.

[tsteenburg]

One issue with the matchmaking in war zones is one of the seemingly minor changes when they dropped ranked. For obvious reasons when they split they made a wz queue and an arena queue, they removed arena from the options when making what had been the unranked queue. Unranked arena popping was an important element of matchmaking. It allowed for shorter queue times, and it rarely dumped more than a 2 person group into the instance.  Obviously, unless they restored ranked, they aren't going to pop arenas in a wz queue. However, if they even made a 4v4 wz map that could pop at lower times, it would go a long way towards solving matchmaking issues. 

 

They also could create a separate 4v4 wz queue with some of the existing maps. It would probably be just the 3 huttball and Voidstar and possibly hyper gate since as lowbie pvp shows, the other maps really breakdown with smaller groups.  They could even solve many issue/complaints with making a separate huttball queue in the 4v4. and pulling huttball from the 8v8 rotation.  You could then have no group queuing allowed in the huttball queue. Huttball is also more resistant to issues with ungrouped players on comms on opposite teams trying to win trade.  

[lothloriaa]

I hear ya, I'd just rather see 2v2/3v3 ranked and unranked matches. 

[supertimtaf]

2 hours ago, lothloriaa said:

And why not make a legit 20v20 battleground?  Like Alterac Valley   Or was that the 40v40?

Someone wasn't around when Ilum first released :')

They tried doing that, with a large scale PvP area on Ilum, made for constant fights between the two factions. Let's just say that it went so bad that they had to remove it. It's now repurposed as the Gree event area.

 

The engine has been modified in such a way that it can't handle 8v8 really good. Even worse for 16-man operations. Now imagine that but 20v20. You'd be playing a slideshow no matter how good your pc is.

Because that's already what happens. So... 40v40 ? Lol. If you want any luck at that, play ESO. Same engine, but modified in a way that's thought for mass scale encounters like you see in MMOs. You have 200 players fighting in a same spot above a demonic portal, entire PvP maps, siege engines with dynamically breakable walls... All without a drop in framerate.

Makes you wonder what the hell they made with Swtor's engine. I'd be very curious to know to be fair. Would make it easier to understand what's working and what isn't. Or how to potentially fix things.

[lothloriaa]

2 hours ago, supertimtaf said:

Someone wasn't around when Ilum first released :')

They tried doing that, with a large scale PvP area on Ilum, made for constant fights between the two factions. Let's just say that it went so bad that they had to remove it. It's now repurposed as the Gree event area.

 

The engine has been modified in such a way that it can't handle 8v8 really good. Even worse for 16-man operations. Now imagine that but 20v20. You'd be playing a slideshow no matter how good your pc is.

Because that's already what happens. So... 40v40 ? Lol. If you want any luck at that, play ESO. Same engine, but modified in a way that's thought for mass scale encounters like you see in MMOs. You have 200 players fighting in a same spot above a demonic portal, entire PvP maps, siege engines with dynamically breakable walls... All without a drop in framerate.

Makes you wonder what the hell they made with Swtor's engine. I'd be very curious to know to be fair. Would make it easier to understand what's working and what isn't. Or how to potentially fix things.

Sounds like the engine was made with candy corn and ice cream, I guess.  I never had a lot of latency issues with WOW in 40 man BGs.  But then again my PC is super powerful and I have a pretty fast internet connection.

Again though, 2v2, 3v3 rated and and group/non group would be ideal. I do miss 2v2 that WOW had.  Much more fun.

[supertimtaf]

15 minutes ago, lothloriaa said:

Sounds like the engine was made with candy corn and ice cream, I guess.

More or less yes. Hero Engine in Alpha was selected for Swtor's game engine at the time. It was heavily modified to suit the needs of a story-based multiplayer game, but with the intent of making it run on bad PC at the time so a lot of bad choices were made when it comes to memory usage, CPU usage and the likes. Basically they made an engine that worked for a story game but not for a MMO. The 64-bit upgrade didn't change anything to it, it just allows the game to pull more ressources from your computer at once without making it run smoother.

That's about it. A choice that seemed smart but was clearly bad for the future of the game.

[Wilsu_Addar]

On 5/21/2024 at 12:11 PM, supertimtaf said:

More or less yes. Hero Engine in Alpha was selected for Swtor's game engine at the time. It was heavily modified to suit the needs of a story-based multiplayer game, but with the intent of making it run on bad PC at the time so a lot of bad choices were made when it comes to memory usage, CPU usage and the likes. Basically they made an engine that worked for a story game but not for a MMO. The 64-bit upgrade didn't change anything to it, it just allows the game to pull more ressources from your computer at once without making it run smoother.

That's about it. A choice that seemed smart but was clearly bad for the future of the game.

This is indeed what doomed the game from the start.  It crippled everything - a large world PvP presence, interactive PvP battles, the ability to release quick updates and hotfixes, as well as the game coding in general.  

The main reason WoW is still relatively successful is the pace and cadence of its patches, hotfixes, and content updates.  This is enabled by its engine, which was custom built and upgraded many, many times over the years.  

SWTOR had everything at its fingertips to become the most dominant game of all time.  The best IP in the world, amazing voice acting storylines, endless lore, and the desire at the time for something different from WoW.  

Bioware had a choice to go with the cheaper Hero engine or a custom designed engine.  They chose to save money, and it ended up costing them hundreds of millions if not billions.  Amazing when you think about ehat a colossal mistake it ended up being.