How to beat a madness sorc 1v1?

[wepeel]

I'm pvping as a merc to learn the class better and have so far been able to hold my own in most situations, be it group or 1v1 I could at least feel I was contributing and when I lost to someone at least I gave them a good run for their money. When I faced a madness sorc alone though, it was like running into a brick wall.

I play arsenal, we were both around level 78, I'm fully geared out in 306 gear and tactical. I went through all my dcds one after the other (could probably have used flare better, but can't see it making a big difference), and the sorc just stood there. Didn't have to pop bubble or actively heal, didn't phase walk, didn't even try to los. Literally just stood there and face tanked all my damage, and when I went down he was still around 40% health.

I'm relatively new at merc so is there anything I'm missing here? Any way through their dps+self heal I'm not seeing? Does IO fare better than arsenal? It seems like if you try to run and recover, you'll still take damage from the dots while the sorc heals up.. and it's not like you can outrun them. Even electro net doesn't do much against an opponent who doesn't have to move or pop any escape.

[SentinalMasterWW]

1 hour ago, wepeel said:

I went through all my dcds one after the other (could probably have used flare better, but can't see it making a big difference)

Chaff flare is one of the best DCD's in the game. It absorbs TWO force and tech attacks no matter how much DMG they would do. Doesn't matter if its an engi nuke or a force leach, it'll gets absorbed. Add on top of this it increases your defense chance and its something you should be popping when you are about to get hit with big burst. That said you need to pop chaff flare properly and know when to pop it, for madness Sorc I pop chaff flare when they are casting force leach or demolish those are two of their heavy hitters. But ideally you want to pop chaff flare when you see them cast force leach. 

Did you also use Tech override and concussive round to knock them out for a bit? I use that and its extremely effective at well...everyone (Except specs that have CC immunity periods). Did you use interupt when they were doing really well anything? Use it during force leach or force lightning. Force lightning is what madness relies on to insta cast demolish, interupt them and they cannot insta cast it giving you more time. Also I don't suggest standing in one spot, Mercs are a bit more mobile with thrill of the hunt being given mainline now. Using tracer missile sure you are locked into one spot, but the rest of the time if possible be moving, Id also suggest putting something between you  and the sorc (like a wall) so that you can get a reprieve, that sorc can't do anything if he can't line of sight you.  

The other thing I'm going to ask is are you running the right skill tree setup for Arsenal?

I personally run; 

Signature shot passive at level 23. 

Power barrier obviously at level 27 

Customized warhead at level  39. 

Chaff flare at level 43. 

Energy rebounder at 47. 

Kolto surge at 63. 

Responsive safeguards at level 68.

and finally trauma regulators at level 73. 

Are you also using your supercharged gas? It's where most of your high DMG comes from. You ALWAYS want to be building stacks of supercharge. I Spam Kolto shot 24/7 when i am running to the next fight to prebuild my stacks of supercharge to have my supercharged gas ready when I engage the next fight. If you are out of combat use your recharge and reload to build stacks or heal back up, sometimes you might even have to bail out of a fight to go heal back up. 

1 hour ago, wepeel said:

I went through all my dcds one after the other

I also hope that you were not popping them all at once. That is the fastest way to down yourself. It's kind of hard to explain, I recommend watching this old vid by biggs here, it's a bit outdated with the changes to chaff flair, but the general idea remains relatively the same. Given time with Merc/Commando you'll get the feel of when you should be popping defensives and it will come naturally. 

1 hour ago, wepeel said:

Does IO fare better than arsenal?

IO does better sustained DPS and is my go to because its more mobile and has less casting compared to Arsenal. I also just find it more engaging to play. However IO is more strict in its rotation and it can punish you by botching your heat. I highly recommend that anyone learning Merc/Commando stick with Arsenal/Gunnery until you get the hang of how the spec plays. Arsenal is far more forgiving compared to IO.  

So in short yes, but only if you know how to play it properly. 

1 hour ago, wepeel said:

Even electro net doesn't do much against an opponent who doesn't have to move or pop any escape.

Electro net should be used against them if they are running around like speedy Gonzales or if you are securing a kill on them. Fun way to annoy people is to CC round them, than if they break throw net on them. They can't break it and have to endure our DPS. 

 

Honestly though, I think it just comes down to practice and time. Given more encounters with sorcs and well anything in PVP playing as merc and you'll learn how to deal with them. 

[wepeel]

11 hours ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

Chaff flare is one of the best DCD's in the game. It absorbs TWO force and tech attacks no matter how much DMG they would do. Doesn't matter if its an engi nuke or a force leach, it'll gets absorbed. Add on top of this it increases your defense chance and its something you should be popping when you are about to get hit with big burst. That said you need to pop chaff flare properly and know when to pop it, for madness Sorc I pop chaff flare when they are casting force leach or demolish those are two of their heavy hitters. But ideally you want to pop chaff flare when you see them cast force leach. 

Thanks for the detailed reply -- to start off, yeah, I could probably have used this better, didn't really watch and wait for any particular cast.

11 hours ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

Did you also use Tech override and concussive round to knock them out for a bit? I use that and its extremely effective at well...everyone (Except specs that have CC immunity periods). Did you use interupt when they were doing really well anything? Use it during force leach or force lightning.

I've used the power surge + concussion missile as a neat trick now and then, but not in this fight. I can't really see what I'd gain from stunning the sorc, especially if I'm already dotted up. Also he might as well just use his stun breaker, it's not like I can follow it up with a hard stun. The interrupt is a good point though, like flare I could probably have used it better.

11 hours ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

Also I don't suggest standing in one spot, Mercs are a bit more mobile with thrill of the hunt being given mainline now. Using tracer missile sure you are locked into one spot, but the rest of the time if possible be moving, Id also suggest putting something between you  and the sorc (like a wall) so that you can get a reprieve, that sorc can't do anything if he can't line of sight you.

Again I'm not sure I see the strategy here, as in what will running away get me? Against several other classes I can understand it, but here my health will keep going down if I'm dotted, he'll heal from them, my damage will go to zero without los and he has access to more self heals than I do. Even if he just waits and lets me stand behind a wall, odds are that when I go back out I'll likely be at more of a disadvantage than when I went in.

11 hours ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

The other thing I'm going to ask is are you running the right skill tree setup for Arsenal?

Almost but not quite the same as you. I usually run the hunter killer droid instead of power barrier, and jet escape instead of energy rebounder. I guess it makes me a little less geared for pure 1v1, but they come in handy in warzones.

11 hours ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

Are you also using your supercharged gas? It's where most of your high DMG comes from. You ALWAYS want to be building stacks of supercharge. I Spam Kolto shot 24/7 when i am running to the next fight to prebuild my stacks

Yeah, pretty much the same, usually use my regen when I can and then pop kolto shot to keep it at 10 stacks until needed.

11 hours ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

I also hope that you were not popping them all at once. That is the fastest way to down yourself. It's kind of hard to explain, I recommend watching this old vid by biggs here,

Haha, yeah, no I realize they work in different ways and use them one after another like I said. Very much like explained in that video, though I sometimes combine energy shield with the warzone adrenal to stack DR. I'm not sure how well responsive safeguards works vs dots though.

11 hours ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

IO does better sustained DPS and is my go to because its more mobile and has less casting compared to Arsenal. I also just find it more engaging to play. However IO is more strict in its rotation and it can punish you by botching your heat. I highly recommend that anyone learning Merc/Commando stick with Arsenal/Gunnery until you get the hang of how the spec plays. Arsenal is far more forgiving compared to IO. 

Hmm, yeah at least with IO it might make it more reasonable to play for time. I'll try it out at some point.

11 hours ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

Electro net should be used against them if they are running around like speedy Gonzales or if you are securing a kill on them. Fun way to annoy people is to CC round them, than if they break throw net on them. They can't break it and have to endure our DPS. 

Yeah, in many situations it's a great ability, I guess that added to my frustration here: like with so many other of the things I could do it felt like there was just no real effect/didn't change the outcome in any way.

 

Edit: going further with this, the general feeling was that it seemed like such an uneven encounter that even if I'd played it perfectly, the outcome would still have been the same. Maybe the sorc would have been forced to heal actively or use some los, but still not be in any real danger of losing. It's a bit like the feeling of fighting an operative -- if they know what they're doing, there's not really anything you can do to beat them 1v1 -- even if you make the optimal choice in every situation, the best you can hope for is to play for time. The difference is that at least an op or a sin have to be able to take their sweet time to kill you, dip out of combat, open again from stealth and so on, something you don't always get the time and space to do -- they can't just run up and facetank you without worrying about their own healthbar.

Edited April 4 by wepeel

[septru]

If you want to get into specifics, I recommend recording your gameplay and uploading it here. That way we can actually help. Just going through a list of scenarios that could happen is extremely speculative, and rather unproductive. 

 

As you already stated, the best way to learn how to beat other classes in 1v1s is to play those classes yourself. If you're struggling with madness sorc, play against it to learn its weaknesses. As you've come to realize, madness v arsenal is always going to be a hard matchup for the arsenal merc. But that doesn't mean you need to always lose to them. Oftentimes skill trumps class, especially in reg warzones were the average player is extremely bad.  With enough skill and experience you can beat maddness on arsenal merc. 

 

Lastly, I wouldn't put a lot of value in lowbie pvp. Lowbie PvP used to be a great place to learn, now it's a waste of time. The skill level in lowbies is very low, many players don't have their full range of abilities, and the type of gameplay is significantly different from lvl 80. 

[Luciferior]

@wepeel Some of your encounter may depend on who you were fighting..

I rarely get fights vs anymore who are willing to stand there toe to toe with me without LoSing or moving around constantly 

I realize you might not want to hear this but despite the fact of losing Id appreciate the notion the sorc fought ya standing still granted them tanking your damage might be frustrating and I can surely understand that

I cant personally say whether or not arsenal merc is supposed to beat madness sorc 1v1 if both players are with in the same skill range and no cool downs

Merc has alot of dcds and I cannot hide the fact I personally hate having to run all of them just to eek out a fight vs specific specs who seem to live decently despite seeming glassy

Iv run into some squish madness sorcs in warzones that seemed clueless and melted np despite having decent gear rating and Iv run into madness sorcs that just rofl stomped me even when I had all of my dcds 

its 1 of those toss up merc having so many dcds in their kit and the same time a class like madness sorc with their barriers eating damage for breakfast and dropping damage

Ironically ill be in the same situation as you in a few weeks as I am leveling a plasmatech vangard to take into pvp While I have played vangard for a bit I am not really experienced with it

And I have no idea how it stacks up vs a class like madness sorc If plasmatech is supposed to nuke them with their eyes closed or get rofl stomped in return 

Tbh I hate scenarios where the notion the class your playing is potentially supposed to beat a specific class that you are fighting because there is always one player that is an enigma and does not play their spec the same way the majority may and If they win vs you then it just casts doubt

Next thing you know your wondering If hes really good if hes hacking or you start thinking you suck at the class your playing then you give up on that spec and go back to something familiar 

I will say on star forge in warzones there are alot of arsenal mercs now granted I am not all seeing so idk anything for certain in this regard but I do not often see arsenal mercs beating madness sorcs 1v1.

Granted that doesnt mean it dont happen just means I havnt personally seen it often enough to bank on that notion

I had a lightning sorc yesterday dog me on my arsenal merc and it was an aggravating experience ... He pillar hugged vs me the entire time Hed poke his head out drop his dps run back behind LoS had me running around stuff just to get him

He came out I netted him he popped his force speed then started running around again I was probably dumb for trying to engage em without dcds and chasing him

But the experience was very maddening to say the least I personally hate it when people make it look like they wana fight you only for them to play peek a boo around an obstruction 

I didnt come to PvP to play wack a mole which is what it feels like when you go against half the people on star forge 

So thats why I say why it may seem annoying for a madness sorc to face tank your damage ...Id still appreciate the notion they fought ya without pillar hugging

Edited April 5 by Luciferior

[wepeel]

17 hours ago, septru said:

If you want to get into specifics, I recommend recording your gameplay and uploading it here. That way we can actually help. Just going through a list of scenarios that could happen is extremely speculative, and rather unproductive. 

As you already stated, the best way to learn how to beat other classes in 1v1s is to play those classes yourself. If you're struggling with madness sorc, play against it to learn its weaknesses. As you've come to realize, madness v arsenal is always going to be a hard matchup for the arsenal merc. But that doesn't mean you need to always lose to them. Oftentimes skill trumps class, especially in reg warzones were the average player is extremely bad.  With enough skill and experience you can beat maddness on arsenal merc. 

Yeah, I realize I may have asked a question that doesn't really have any kind of specific, concise answer. Since posting I've come to that very conclusion, going to do some pvp as a madness sorc and see what kind of problems I run into. Also I can see not losing to them 100% of the time, certainly if there's a big skill difference -- but just like what prompted me to post in the first place, that feeling that someone just facerolled you without having to resort to any of the tactics normally associated with pvp in general or the class in particular is a bit hard to digest. So the question remains, assuming the madness sorc knows what he's doing and doesn't make any obvious mistakes, is there a way through that or does the answer end up being more along the lines of just not engaging 1v1?

 

17 hours ago, septru said:

Lastly, I wouldn't put a lot of value in lowbie pvp. Lowbie PvP used to be a great place to learn, now it's a waste of time. The skill level in lowbies is very low, many players don't have their full range of abilities, and the type of gameplay is significantly different from lvl 80. 

I don't know about this one. I hear you on the skill level, but in my own experience, that part is often balanced by lowbie/sub-80 pvp not being one-sided ordeals just as frequently. At level 80 premades are common and in many cases you can accurately predict how a match is going to end within 30 seconds after starting. And in a one-sided match, whether you're on the winning or losing side, there aren't a lot of opportunities for developing your skills.

[septru]

6 hours ago, wepeel said:

assuming the madness sorc knows what he's doing and doesn't make any obvious mistakes, is there a way through that or does the answer end up being more along the lines of just not engaging 1v1?

No, if all else equal, madness will always beat arsenal.

 

But as I said earlier, 99% of the players in regs are not very skilled.

[Wulfurkin]

Be another madness sorc, rage jugg or ap pt. These specs are broken atm, nothing else can defeat tbem 1v1

[wepeel]

Well, I've tried out a madness sorc for a few days now, and yeah.. so far in warzones it's a tremendous difference, you can 1v1 pretty much anyone (assassins have been the trickiest, not all sure there) even without being particularly used to the ins and outs of the spec, and if you don't get bothered by a second enemy (or face a sin) you often don't even have to use dcds, just like my experience that prompted this thread to begin with. You can also thrive in the relative disorder of warzones, e.g. spread your dots around, and relatively easy get away from less focused pressure situations and often survive and recoup even when someone tries to follow you to get the kill.

In arenas the difference is smaller compared to a merc. You can't stand up to the direct focus of multiple players as well, and lose a lot of effectiveness in those situations -- so it's not all that uncommon that you get chosen as the first target. This is also the only real weakness I've spotted so far. 1v1, there really isn't any obvious one.

Edited April 12 by wepeel

[Ajalkaar]

On 4/12/2024 at 2:27 AM, Wulfurkin said:

Be another madness sorc, rage jugg or ap pt. These specs are broken atm, nothing else can defeat tbem 1v1

Rage Jugg ??? All oper, sorc, sniper, merc, sin spec are better at dueling than jugg what are you talking about? Pt's are good in duels but not broken most ranged or spec with offheals would won against pt.

[septru]

16 hours ago, Ajalkaar said:

Rage Jugg ??? All oper, sorc, sniper, merc, sin spec are better at dueling than jugg

Rage beats oper, sorc, sniper, and merc. Sin is the only thing that beats it. 

[Ajalkaar]

8 hours ago, septru said:

Rage beats oper, sorc, sniper, and merc. Sin is the only thing that beats it. 

You don't do a lot of duels with decent players don't you ?

Even if op conc is a trash spec overall in pvp this extension it still one of the best dueling classes and I'm not even talking about leth wich is even better rn. 

Did you even try to duel a sniper ??? You won't even hit it before it kills you. Sniper can just keep you at 35m the whole duel.

Merc will simply outheal Jugg 

Remember that every class won't hit into your ED jugg is the second worst dueling spec after mara 

[RACATW]

He's probably talking about when he has a skill advantage vs the players, on a map with tons of pillars.

It's quite tricky fighting good ranged 1v1 in the open. In fact, I think the best ranged class to kill jugg may be a truly good merc.

[septru]

5 hours ago, Ajalkaar said:

You don't do a lot of duels with decent players don't you ?

Check link in signature.  🤣

Edited April 14 by septru

[wepeel]

5 hours ago, RACATW said:

He's probably talking about when he has a skill advantage vs the players, on a map with tons of pillars.

It's quite tricky fighting good ranged 1v1 in the open. In fact, I think the best ranged class to kill jugg may be a truly good merc.

I'd say sniper -- a merc has a much harder time keeping the jugg off him, whereas given ideal conditions, like someone posted above a sniper can keep a jugg at a distance and/or slowed for a very long time. That's only 1v1 and with enough room though. If anyone else joins in the sniper's a sitting duck.

[Ajalkaar]

19 hours ago, septru said:

Check link in signature.  🤣

then how can you say that rage jugg would win against any of these classes ? 

[septru]

54 minutes ago, Ajalkaar said:

then how can you say that rage jugg would win against any of these classes ? 

Rage jugg has the most root breaks in the game. Even without mad dash (which I don't take 99% of the time), rage juggs have intercede, enrage, endure pain, obliterate, and breaker to purge roots/slows. Not to mention root/stun immunity on leap and several 10-30m abilities including saber throw, vicious throw, force scream, and force crush if you do find yourself out of melee range and unable to leap. AND even if somehow I do get rooted/slowed, that is actually a buff to rage juggs because of pooled hatred. Rage has literally an ultimate kit to deal with crowd control. If you cannot stay ontop of a sniper as rage jugg, then you are playing the class wrong. 

 

And yes, I duel decent players. As you can see from the link in my signature, I am S9, S12, S14 top3 conc op. And many of the people I play against are also retired top3 players. Over the years, I have co-hosted the most successful PvP tournaments on NA along with my friends SWTOR influencers Kogass and Biggs. I know a thing or two about dueling. 🤣