The Ranged vs Melee Meta & Fixing classes for PVP & PVE.

[SentinalMasterWW]

Intro 

One of the common things brought up here on the PVP side of the forums is that there is a ranged meta, where melee currently is at a disadvantage while range dominates in PVP. I wanted to see for myself if this was the case, and if true what are things the Dev's could do to fix this and while they are at it, adjust classes as needed for PVE/PVP. I highly suggest people read this, I have some interesting ideas on this topic and some decent solutions.

The Ranged Side 

It's pretty well known here on the Forums that I main Merc/Commando so since that is the spec I have been playing the most, I start from there. I ran both Arsenal/Gunnery and IO/Assault specialist. 

Gunnery/Arsenal either goes into two categories, they either take primed ignition or Burning bright. Primed Ignition offers a bit better sustained DPS on a target, but a majority of your hard hitting abilities come from your High impact bolt using Conc. Fire. So basically better Sustained DPS but less burst. It's an all around solid choice for beginners or players who don't want to work around the finnicky mechanics of burning bright. BB (Burning bright) is an interesting one, especially paired with Gravitating bolt which offers 50% more DMG with vortex bolt on top of the 100% DMG bonus that tactical provides. The highest I've scored so far is 115K crits, which for gunnery/Arsenal is pretty big. However BB makes you reliant on building stacks with boltstorm and making it reliant on waiting for this 1 Ability to come off cooldown, alongside loosing a decent amount of sustained DPS. 

IO/AS on the other hand offer better sustained DPS, but their burst really isn't there, High impact explosives can offer some more burst, but IO/AS is more "fluff" imo, its really good don't get me wrong but it looses in these fast encounters, it is much better in drawn out fights where you whittle targets down with sustained DOT's.

Generally where I think people say Merc is OP is in defensives and Net so lets talk about that. Merc's defensives are actually pretty easy to work around, its just that so many players get caught up DPSing they hit into reflect. There are technically 4 defensives for merc, Energy Shield, Echoing Deterrence, Adrenaline rush, and Diversion/Chaff flair.  Energy shield can provide some off healing with trauma stabilizers but if they get focused really hard or they are low on health it can be negated, ED is countered by simply not attacking by the person, Adrenaline rush if they are high enough health will get them back up but can be countered if the person is near death and you just DPS hard into them. Chaff flair absorbs two force/tech attacks, and increases their defense chance. This is where you should not hit them with big burst, like a force leach or an Engi discharge. 

Regarding Net, its annoying sure, but its nowhere OP as people say. This is why for example when I play Watchman Sentinel i just pop guarded by the force and just ignore a vast majority of their burst DMG. I save that ability for when I'm netted or about to get hit with hard bursts.

Overall Commando/Merc are not overpowered in the current meta. Playing as them and against them, I find they are one of the easiest ranged to counter, currently their mobility is very poor and are basically relegated to slightly mobile turrets. They don't output terrifying DPS and maybe its just me, I find their one of the easiest classes to counter in PVP. 

Snipers/Slingers on the other hand. 

While I love sniper, I currently think this is the spec that is causing 90% of the issues in PVP. The general issue is that they can easily knock melee back and immobilize them. Marksman and Engineering are guilty of this. Marksman can just keep a target rooted with penetrating blast and knock them back, while Engi can demolish them with slows and roots. Currently though, Marksman imo is the worst DPS spec in the game both PVE and PVP. Let me explain. 

While it can be annoying with its roots, the problem Marksman has is the same problem Gunnery/Arsenal have. They have to go down two routes, Sustained or Better burst. Agitating energies tactical provides most of the specs sustained DPS but when you run this, you don't have terrifying levels of burst and are reliant on ticking Corrosive Dart for your DPS. B-0 is finnicky, it can hit really hard and up to 120K crits, but it comes with this cost. 

1. You have to use one of your defensives to use it. 

2. You loose out on a ton of sustained DPS. 

3. Sometimes your Ambush will either miss, or be absorbed entirely. 

Basically when you play with B-0 you are taking a dice roll that you will be hitting massive crits. 

Virulence/Dirty Fighting feel fine, they can hit hard, but their not super OP imo they feel fine. 

Engi/Saboteur, this imo is the spec that causes so much pain for melee and generally every class currently. The spec has a ton of built in control, add onto that its covered escape immobilizes targets even further. This spec can be a nightmare for melee players. Regular Engis are bad enough but what makes this spec the bane of all players is one broken tactical. 

Ionic Discharge. 

This basically makes Engi a nuke spec, it literally can nuke players healthbars down. I want to add that Ionic is not a very hard playstyle its literally one of the easiest things to learn, and is essentially the crutch tactical. It's unfortunate imo that engi has been reduced to basically this, it used to be the more engaging sniper spec that took some actual skill, and now is just play the nuke playstyle. 

In short, Snipers problem is that it has a ton of control over melee with its knockbacks and roots, and factoring in the cover system. Melee are going to struggle to kill a sniper who knows that they are doing. Add onto this the broken meta setup that is ionic engi and its just rubbing salt in the wound. 

Moving on to Sorcs/Sages. The biggest issue imo is that they have too much mobility. The spec essentially can have a 10 Sec force Speed with Root immunity that can knock players back and root them up, add onto this they are one of the few specs that kept their CC's and a good sage/sorc can annoy a player to no end. However Biosword made this worse the addition of torturous tactics passive they added in a patch a while back. A reduced cooldown on their main CC and leaving a debuff that reduces the targets DMG by 25% is way tooo broken. 

Overall Range's problem imo is not the amount of DPS they output, Playing as them and against them. I find that the biggest issue for melee is they struggle to close the distance and keep that engagement range. So in turn its moreso an issue of mobility. Range can hit terrifying burst yes, but the core issue is that melee cannot close and keep that distance. All a sniper has to do is pop entrench and use knockback on either cover pulse or penetrating rounds. 

The Melee Side 

Generally speaking, I have found in General Melee to offer really solid DMG both in burst and DOT. However like I stated the biggest issue is that melee has essentially zero mobility currently, they often have to pick a Defensive over something as basic as mobility, and it can ring true for ranged sometimes. 

Guardian/Juggernaut feels the more complete out of the melee classes in the sense they were not pruned as hard compared to its peers, but as stated its mobility leaves much to be desired. For the longest time on this spec I ran reflect, but a while back I swapped to blade blitz and its night and Day how much better the spec feels. I can actually move and close the distance, Even if I am knocked its so nice to be able to pop blitz and break it without being rooted in one spot for 5 years. However I loose reflect in turn and If I get tunneled I kind of can eat some of it, but I will have far less survivability compared to if I had reflect. 

Marauders/Sentinels, this is interesting. Imo this spec has good mobility with predation, but I find it becomes a bit vulnerable when focused more and if predation and Force camo are on cooldown than the spec kind of just dies. The DMG of these classes is great but it can quickly collapse under pressure. 

PT/Vanguard, this spec is interesting. I found their mobility was never really an issue, this spec is a weird Quasi range/melee spec. Hydraulic overrides/ Hold the line makes this spec terrifying to range, as they cannot be knocked, rooted, or slowed. The only thing you can do is CC them, or throw net. AP/Tactics is basically a glass cannon though, you run in and are kamikazeing your way in. Pyro/Plasma has the cleave locked down and better survivability though its burst is lacking. 

Operatives/Scoundrels lack survivability imo and to be honest their DMG output is meh. The spec relies on roll for main mobility and getting rooted especially by snipers is just a death sentence for this spec, Snipers are this classes kryptonite. Concealment falls short in its DMG department it can do strong burst but it survivability is basically non existent, it has evasion but having to channel kolto infusion hurts this spec. Lethality is a bit better, has slightly more ranged, and its survivability is better with procing its roll heal, but again both these specs DPS are not really the greatest currently. 

Assassins/Shadows, this spec just has really fallen from what it once was in 6.0 and past. Deception/Infiltration is tied with Marksman/Sharpshooter as the worst DPS spec in the game, both PVE and PVP. It can do a decent burst window with phantomcraft but its actually burst DPS is kind of pathetic. Its more so an annoyance than an actual threat. Hatred/Serenity can do very solid DPS but its relegated to being literally made out of paper. The spec cannot take hits, and it kind of just dies, it more so is suited for PVE rather than PVP. 

Overall across the board for both Melee and Ranged, there is pros and Cons to all the specs which there should be. However currently two out of the four melee classes are really bad right now Compared to the three ranged classes. So the next section is my solution of fixes across the board. 

The Fixes 

I want to state that as always my number one fix for class issues is undoing pruning. Pruning has brought these discrepancies with them, and makes class balancing even harder. Its far easier if everyone had all their old abilities back, than it comes down to tweaking numbers and gear. 

First off, all classes have all their high mobility abilities back as mainline, no argument. Everyone gets it by default, this means that these classes have the following back: 

Shadow/Assassin - Phantom Stride 

Operative/Scoundrel - Holotraverse 

Juggernaut/Guardian - Blade Blitz 

Marauder/Sentinel - Predation, Blade Blitz 

Powertech/Vanguard - Charge, Hold the line 

Mercenary/Commando - Propulsion round

There is an argument of Phasewalk/Hololocate to be on here, but these are more so teleports, and I'm not sure if they would fall under high mobility. 

Regarding Class changes, 

Commandos/Mercs

These guys should get charged barrier by default, This frees up a slot on level 27 and I'd move Cryo gernade down there to make level 27 the utility tier. Up at level 68 the player would have the choice between these options; 

-Echoing Deterrence 

-Since Propulsion round is granted by default, this is where the smoke screen passive would be. 

-Suit FOE, but reworked slightly. It would offer the DOT DMG Reduction but popping it would also reduce AOE DMG taken. It would help the spec more in PVE especially and make it more viable. 

Regarding any DPS changes, Gunnery/Arsenal needs buffs to its DPS, not for PVP mainly but for PVE. Its sustained DPS is among the lowest and it needs better sustained DPS or better burst. I welcome Feedback on this. 

Snipers/Slingers 

The overall changes to sniper to bring it more in line would be this, 

-Evasive Maneuver's removed entirely, Evasion is added back as its own ability. Evasive would instead be replaced with Tactical Retreat, thus adding back in the 10% roll heal. 

-For Engineering, Targeting beams bonus critical hit DMG is reduced from 20% down to 10%. Ionic Discharge should be removed entirely or reworked. It is too broken in the current meta. 

-For Marksman, remove the immobilization on penetrating rounds. Replace it with either reduced cooldown on Penetrating rounds, or Reduced energy cost. This spec much like gunnery/Arsenal needs a buff, its one of the worst DPS classes in the game currently. For those who are more technical on the sniper/slinger side of things, once again I welcome feedback on how to improve. 

Marauder/Sentinel 

Guarded by the force is now given as a mainline ability. With it and Blade blitz being given as default this is what the level 68 tier would be; 

-Obfuscate

-Force stasis 

-Leg slash 

Basically it goes between the choice of, an extra defensive, a CC, or a slow on the target. 

-With Predation now being mainline, it would be replaced with the force fade Passive mod, which back in 6.0 did the following 

Quote

Increases your movement speed by 15% and the movement speed bonus of Force Camouflage by 20%.  Additionally, increases the duration of Force Camouflage by 2 seconds

Assassins/Shadows 

The changes mainly would come down to this; 

-Force shroud and overcharge saber are given as mainline abilities. 

-Force shroud would be replaced with a passive the increases shrouds duration by 3 secs.

-Overcharge saber would be replaced with spike for the DPS Specs. 

For the Sin/Shadow tanks, 

-Extended force shroud is replacing Overcharge saber. 

-Buff Deception/Infiltration's DMG, its burst is really poor, and it needs that terrifying burst again. 

This last change I leave up to others if they think should be done or not, but adding back in a Death Knell Implant that would basically do the following, 

Quote

Whenever you consume a charge of Force Potency you gain a stack of Audacious Potency, increasing melee damage done by 10% for 30 seconds. Stacks up to 3 times.

 Operative/Scoundrel 

-First thing, DPS buff across the board. 

-Because holotraverse is now given as mainline, I think a passive that makes it so after using roll the player is given temporary immunity to Roots/Knocks would be great for this spec. Obviously give it a cooldown on how often it can be used, but I think it would help this spec quite a bit. 

-Concealment needs some way it can proc Kolto infusion to be instant, or just general better survivability. 

Any classes or specs I didn't mention here would just get some passives from 6.0 and past to fill in the blanks.

I want to add these two subsections as well

Healers 

Doing some testing, I think Healers need to be buffed to help keep up with the DPS meta. Operative/Scoundrel healer especially needs to be brought up, as currently I rarely if every see players nowadays using it for either PVE or PVP. However I also want the game to do better matchmaking with support classes. One team should not have two healers while the other has none. 

Tanks 

There needs to be a DPS cap on Tanks to help counter and prevent the Skank tank meta. So for example say someone is on Jug running the usual Skank tank build, the hardest they would be able to hit would be around a 50-60K crit. This means that even if they run DPS gear and try and go skank tank they are going to hit a ceiling that prevents them. In turn however I'd like to see tanks become more "tanky" with a bit better Defensives and reward players more who are throwing guards, guard swapping, and throwing out taunts to help support the team rather than just skank tank DPS. 

Second Wind 

This is going to be majorly controversial but Second wind needs to be nerfed. I would cut its 20% heal down to 10%, and drastically increase the cooldown time. Second wind is currently too strong in PVP, and needs to be lowered. I don't want it nerfed into oblivion, but it has to nerfed in some capacity. 

Conclusion 

There is a lot to this topic and I thank people for reading it. I want to state a TLDR for those who didn't. 

TLDR; The Ranged Meta issue is not caused by Ranged DPS but rather a lack of mobility for Melee classes to counter ranged.

Even if you disagree on some or a lot of points, I think there needs to be some major reworks for all the classes. I read a post a while back of some people wanting rated games back, but I think they should Fix their game before they do that. I also want to add a tangent on class stacking. I don't think Class stacking itself is an issue, I doubt a bunch of solo Q's all happened to be the same class, and even if they are its just random RNG. Class stacking is moreso an issue caused by Premades. Premades forming meta comps are whats hurting PVP massively in terms of balancing, as they can get a tank, healer and up to 6 DPS. The simplest solution is literally just limit it back down to 4 for Warzones and two for Arenas. This 8 Man premade experiment has been a failure but Biosword will never admit they made a mistake at all during 7.0.

Anyways, as usual love to hear thoughts. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dyne-]

On 3/7/2024 at 10:09 PM, SentinalMasterWW said:

I want to state that as always my number one fix for class issues is undoing pruning. Pruning has brought these discrepancies with them, and makes class balancing even harder. Its far easier if everyone had all their old abilities back, than it comes down to tweaking numbers and gear. 

I don't agree with everything you've said, but it's better than your typical posts centered around buffing Mercenary beyond all reason.

For example, accuracy debuffs have no place in PvP. I'd rather the developers think of an interesting mechanic, damage boost, or defensive utility that buffs the user as opposed to one person being relegated to the position of a target dummy for a certain period of time. There's no counterplay to that.

Undoing ability pruning is the answer to class balancing. They could have tweaked CC, roots, slows, broken gear like force bound, brought operatives down to earth, and buffed underperforming classes. It really isn't that complicated. All of the UI and website changes were a waste of time. That time and money should have been invested into the story of the game and end game content.

Edited March 9 by Dyne-

[SentinalMasterWW]

2 hours ago, Dyne- said:

For example, accuracy debuffs have no place in PvP. I'd rather the developers think of an interesting mechanic, damage boost, or defensive utility that buffs the user as opposed to one person being relegated to the position of a target dummy for a certain period of time. There's no counterplay to that.

I actually forgot to add, That PT/VG's Stealth Scan Accuracy debuff should be removed. It's broken being able to spam that out every 20 Secs. Honestly, What they should've done to stealth scan when they changed it all those patches ago is just increase its radius. I'd rather keep Accuracy debuffs tied to sniper with its diversion. 

I also seriously think they need to get to rid of the Sorc/sage Stun passive, Reduced cooldown and a 25% DMG Debuff to the target for 10 Secs? There is a reason that never came back at launch 7.0 but honestly I feel that the Dev's only really buff their favorite specs at this point. 

2 hours ago, Dyne- said:

Undoing ability pruning is the answer to class balancing. They could have tweaked CC, roots, slows, broken gear like force bound, brought operatives down to earth, and buffed underperforming classes. It really isn't that complicated. All of the UI and website changes were a waste of time. That time and money should have been invested into the story of the game and end game content.

Agreed, I mainly just wanted in 7.0 to build off of what existed in 6.0 while fixing the issues. The problem is that the Dev's decided to reinvent the wheel and throw everything under the bus because they had their own vision of SWTOR should be. Fans pushed back and the Dev's ignored it saying they know what we want, and well declining player base speaks for it. I've stated it before but launch 7.0 should have just been removing Combat Styles from the classes, and later on in 7.0s lifespan they could add the 2nd Style option. You can tell they were in wayyy over there head. Just focusing on removing the Class tie would've been great for the Dev's focus and balance on one thing, than later get the time they need to polish the swapping system. Instead everything was rushed out, and now Classes feel like a Diet version of what they once were and their goal of making classes feel unique ended up making them all feel the same.

[dftu]

On 3/8/2024 at 12:09 AM, SentinalMasterWW said:

AP/Tactics is basically a glass cannon though

I think you need to play the spec more. It's honestly pretty tanky with defensives like Power Yield and Energy Shield, and it gets even tankier when tanks and healers are around since it gets CDR on Energy Shield. 

On 3/8/2024 at 12:09 AM, SentinalMasterWW said:

Operatives/Scoundrels lack survivability imo and to be honest their DMG output is meh.

Leth has a ton of DR and off heals, and it has great damage, so I really don't see that. Can't speak to Conc though just because I haven't played it much this expansion. I think it does have some solid burst damage from what I've seen, and its roll also adds some survivability. 

On 3/8/2024 at 12:09 AM, SentinalMasterWW said:

I'd like to see tanks become more "tanky" with a bit better Defensives and reward players more who are throwing guards, guard swapping, and throwing out taunts to help support the team rather than just skank tank DPS.

Anyone who actually knows what they're doing is doing all these things. Taunts also don't take a GCD, so there's no reason not to use them unless all the damage is directed at you. In 8v8s, it can be a risk putting guard on a player you don't know since you could be taking a ton of damage through guard if your teammate doesn't know how to use DCDs. In 4v4s, you absolutely should be guard swapping to everyone though, and you can and probably should have focus target set up to make swaps easier and faster. There'd still be little reason to run tank gear even with your suggestions on a damage cap (even then, I think the issue lies more with specific utility choices in the skill trees rather than tank damage as a whole) since tank stats just don't do all that much in PvP, especially against internal/elemental damage. Even if you are tankier, people can still choose not to hit you. It also helps to actually be able to put out some pressure as a tank instead of only being a 2k DPS guard bot. 

[Anhkriva]

3 hours ago, dftu said:

I think you need to play the spec more. It's honestly pretty tanky with defensives like Power Yield and Energy Shield, and it gets even tankier when tanks and healers are around since it gets CDR on Energy Shield. 

Someone who calls Power Yield a defensive skill shouldn't be telling others that they should play the spec more.

[dftu]

8 hours ago, Anhkriva said:

Someone who calls Power Yield a defensive skill shouldn't be telling others that they should play the spec more.

Then you should go back and reread what the skill actually does before making that kind of a comment. Yes, it has offensive properties and is used rotationally, but you're completely wrong if you think it has no defensive properties. It's also not uncommon for AP PTs to run EP/Supercommando to give Power Yield even more defensive utility, particularly when solo queuing arenas. 

[Beyrahl]

If power yield lasted 30 seconds again for AP it would simply be an unbearable class to deal with. They did the right thing and it's still very strong defensively. It only feels like a glass cannon when you're fighting way too many or using your DCDs too late. You have to be far more proactive, damage reduction is useless if you don't have a hp pool to make use of it. 

Edited March 11 by Beyrahl

[BallisticKaine]

I agree with OP statements. Best way to balance as well is go back to Set bonus gear. The legendary implants with mix and matching create a too big of unbalance in game. Go back to basic set bonus gear, tacticals are okay as long as they don't break the game (Grit Teeth, Spliced Gene, Neural Dart, Ionic Discharge which has yet to be nerfed like the others). 

Pruning needs to be reversed PERIOD! 

Give back all hard and soft stuns back to base line, but make hard stuns a 2 second stun. Make roots and slows actually add to the resolve bar for PvP.

Each class can opt into making the hard stun 4 seconds again, but it needs to be in a level that is important option. Like for sorcerer/sage the level that they can choose ergress or increase hard stun time, add bubble stun to this option area as well. 

Snipers/Gunslingers need surrender/counter measures for speed increase, evasion needs to be separate again so it isn't do we use for DCD or offensive. Ballistic Dampeners needs to be base line for them as well. Make counter measures/surrender reset roll an option to take like for the level of heal in cover or reset roll. Give back roll heal as well. 

Operative/Scoundrel needs surrender/counter measure back as well for speed boost. The rolls need increase of time for recharge. Concealment/Scrapper needs to be able use Kolto Injection on fly as well. Make an option for roll for all classes to cleanse/evasion. Remove the 7 second evasion option for DoT spec. 

Sorcerer/Sage DoT spec remove force armor heal, decrease the amount of healing they get from DoTs to be on par as Shadow/Assassin. Remove plague master option. The damage decrease from stun needs to go as well. 

The skank tank cap for critical alacrity needs to be a lower amount then say dps counterparts. Once you hit a threshold that is it. Your damage or cooldown will not increase. It is max it will go no further. Tanks are ment to take damage along with keeping the enemy focused on you. Give Juggernaut/Guardian tank back chilling scream, but increase the focus/rage usage for it. Give DPS the option to opt into getting a heal from intercede/guardian leap. Make endure pain more like Adrenaline Rush. Triggers at certain level of health, not a false sense of security. Make it an actual heal.

Sentinel/Marauder need obfuscate back. Guarded by the force needs to be 6 seconds

 

This is at the time all i can think about

[wepeel]

On 3/8/2024 at 6:09 AM, SentinalMasterWW said:

Operatives/Scoundrels lack survivability imo and to be honest their DMG output is meh. The spec relies on roll for main mobility and getting rooted especially by snipers is just a death sentence for this spec, Snipers are this classes kryptonite.

What. There's pretty much no way a sniper can handle an op 1v1 given similar skill. There's no way for the sniper to keep the op in combat, or counteract self heal as long as there's something to los behind. Keep in mind the dps and survivability of a sniper both drop drastically if they're forced to leave cover and run around. They also have a fair bit less mobility than an op any way you look at it, and nowadays no self heal save for the passive regen while in cover, so it's easy for both ops and sins to chip them down.

Edited March 20 by wepeel